Spyder3 paper calibration questions

[RogerEle]

Hi everyone,  

quick background:  I have a portrait studio where we do are printing on an epson 9600 using the epson driver through Qimage - we also do photo copy and restoration work.  Have the eye1 for display calibration .. just got a new windows 7 machine and the windows 7 display would look un-profiled until re-profiling.  So every time the machine is rebooted we get to reprofile.  I put in a support ticket with x-rite, since the calibration works fine until windows 7 is restarted.  Not trying to get into windows 7 issues and I see there are posts on this forum that deal with this.  Point being that I waited a week and no response from x-rite, so I purchased the Spyder3 SR system (we have two CRT monitors that we don't want to replace - one of them on the windows 7 machine - so for that reason didn't look at the color munki).

We have been using the Lexjet eSatin paper with the profile from Lexjet and also Lexjet's Rag paper.  Mostly the profiles are very good but with some images I do fight a couple of things so I figured I would give it a poke.  The eSatin prints a little red which makes it difficult to print b&w warm tone in the olive color direction and some images with the matte Rag paper can look tea stained when printed with a warm tone.  I recently had a couple of these orders in a row so it lit a fire under me.

I have wanted to get into profiling papers so that I could try out different papers and not feel like I was judging the papers based on the quality of the downloadable profiles, so getting the paper profiling capabilities was an added bonus that I couldn't turn down.  Also, the 9600 sometimes needs lots of head cleaning but has eventually always come clean - so there is a question in my mind that it may print slightly different than the 9600 that built the manufacturer/vendors profile.  I also purchased an epson r1900 for printing matte, for back up and as a way to help figure out when to upgrade the 9600.  Most of the testing I am doing is on the 9600 and the eSatin paper.  Now I am banging my head against a wall ... I don't know what areas of my testing are operator ignorance and what areas are the limitations of the 9600 or the spyder3 system or the paper.  Any help on sorting this out would be appreciated

Specific profiling questions ...

b&w printing and toning is the most important to me.  It also appears to be the easiest to judge a profile by printing a b&w as I can see the rbg numbers in the image are neutral.  So I build a paper profile, dry overnight - 729 patches plus grey with two sheets under the test patches when reading.  And the b&w prints made with the profile appear to have a subtle yellow cast.  Now I am used to the subtle cooler/red cast of the lexjet profile.  When I test the color of the b&w with the meter the a b numbers are both .24 to .6 something so it is pretty neutral, but maybe this is a reflection of the choices datacolor made with the spyder, the white balance of the unit or an optical illusion on my part seeing the image next to paper white?

I don't have a viewing booth, but I don't assume what I am seeing is 'real' because of that.  Illumination in the studio is day light fluorescent bulbs.  But we have window light and tungsten and open shade and the studio lighting, although I am not viewing to a standard when the effect is the same in all of my viewing choices I feel pretty comfortable with my assessments, is this wrong?

I noticed that each time I clicked on a patch I would get a slightly different reading, does this mean that I should read the patches (at least the grey sets) more than once and average/merge the data tables?  I can read the patches, then duplicate the data table and re read the grey patches and then merge the two ...

Should I be reading patches in low light?  I am wondering if I am getting a little ambient light in my reading, the spyder unit rides on a plastic track to make reading quicker.  I realize this is something I can test for, just thought it might already be common knowledge?

The Spyder3 software has a point in the process, after reading the patches where you can adjust the profile before creating it.  I was making a test print, then judging the results and tweaking then making another test print ... guess and checking ...  I did this all day yesterday and I am thinking I misunderstood the work flow.  The images that you view and print for tests within the spyder software have a check box for turning on and off soft proofing.  I am now wondering if the best workflow is to study the test images with soft proofing on and off - making changes in the profile until there is the least amount of shift going between on and off?  Then making a test print to catch issues that might have been overlooked?  

All and any feedback appreciated!
Roger

[digitaldog]

I have a portrait studio where we do are printing on an epson 9600 using the epson driver through Qimage - we also do photo copy and restoration work.  

The eSatin prints a little red which makes it difficult to print b&w warm tone in the olive color direction and some images with the matte Rag paper can look tea stained when printed with a warm tone.

So how are the B&W prints if you forgo Qimage and use the Epson Advanced B&W?

 

so there is a question in my mind that it may print slightly different than the 9600 that built the manufacturer/vendors profile.

 

Shouldn’t (that is, the printer is the printer. The driver, that’s a different story).

[RogerEle]

So how are the B&W prints if you forgo Qimage and use the Epson Advanced B&W?

I am using the regular ultrachrome ink set with photo black, I am not familiar with Advanced b&w on the 9600, is it a separate program?  I have never updated the driver because I was using the Ilford Studio system rip (stopped when Ilford discontinued paper) and I didn't want to mess up the rip setup ...

Shouldn’t (that is, the printer is the printer. The driver, that’s a different story).

Thanks!

[digitaldog]

I am using the regular ultrachrome ink set with photo black, I am not familiar with Advanced b&w on the 9600, is it a separate program? 

Is part of the Epson print driver. Designed for very neutral and archival B&W prints (or prints with toning).
http://www.epson.com/pdf/SP76009600_Ref_Guide.pdf

[pfigen]

Andrew is right about using ABW. It's almost always the best way to print black and whites to an Epson, assuming the printer you're using supports that. Basically ABW prints using the three black inks and is very neutral. You can, in the ABW dialog, add some tinting to your image, which still using the three blacks primarily, but starts to introduce color according to what you specify in the tint dialog. And all of this with no profiles. Just send it a real gamma 2.2 file like Adobe RGB that has been neutralized and you'll be fine. ABW expects to seen gamma 2.2, so Adobe RGB is the easiest. sRGB is a modified 2.2 and of course, ProPhoto is 1.8. Of course this is all printing directly through the Epson driver only.

[RogerEle]

Thanks pfigen,  the 9600 has two inks - black and light black ... the pdf Andrew linked for me has comments about the 9600 having improved b&w, but no mention of the Advanced b&w.  When I get to the studio tomorrow I will open the driver and see what the choices are ... fingers crossed ... maybe it is in an upgrade to the driver ...

Thanks, again,
Roger

[pfigen]

I think they improved the ABW when it got to the 9800, which did indeed have three inks. Two inks is better than one, but still not ideal. A good custom profile will make a very neutral black and white using all the inks. Or, there's the option of getting a 9900 as well, which is better in every way than the generation of the 9600 and way way faster to boot.

[Ernst Dinkla]

Where shall I begin?

I think there never was an ABW mode in the 9600 driver. The B&W output improved with the one extra grey compared to the CcMmYK pigment Epsons before it but did not give the control and consistency of more recent models like the 9800 or custom quad printers. Lots of composite CMY mixes still used for greys. The other printer mentioned, the R1900 is even harder to control on B&W output as it relies on one black only and composite CMY mixes for greys.

If B&W output and toning is that important I would look for a more B&W capable printer. An Epson 9600 is less capable, old and by that probably not that consistent anymore either. The remark on repeated cleanings is a symptom. The Spyder 3 is a colorimeter with no correct measurement in the UV range while you use FBA containing papers and there is no good viewing light around to get a clue. The Spyder3 is most likely not adapted enough to the R1900 extra hue pigments, on the 9600 it will be better.  Something is wrong with your monitor calibration/profiling. Either the software doesn't activate the monitor profile or you did not let the CRT warm up before calibration/profile creation or you do not take a cup of coffee in the morning while the monitor warms up. Old CRTs should be buried meanwhile.

The prices on the HP Z3200 are low right now, a Z3100 refurbished may even be lower in price and that one is already a very capable B&W printer. There is an internal spectrometer for calibration and profiling. It will not measure up to UV range but the software does a good job in compensation. If possible get the APS package for the Z3100, on the Z3200 the Color Center included is already optimal. Look around for a second hand light booth, lots of conventional offset print shops went belly up and had that equipment, at least here. Most likely the lamps are still usable, otherwise replacing them with good Philips lamps isn't expensive. There are also the Solux 4700K solutions around.

With a Z model and Qimage for B&W toning you better use application color management and tone the RGB B&W images on the monitor, if the last is correctly color managed. For neutral B&W check you paper white that it is neutral enough and use the HP quad inks straight in the ABW equivalent HP driver B&W mode, no colored inks will be used. You can tone in ABW but the Z's color mode does a very good job with toned B&W. It is quite easy to see by eye and a good viewing booth whether ink and paper make a good match, the HP inks are neutral. A non-FBA paper + HP inks stays quite neutral in changing light too. The Spyder's LEDs do not have UV light and do not create an FBA effect that way so with FBA papers it can not measure the FBA effect in the blues. Just guesswork of the firmware/software there and what you see is a Datavision developer's estimation of paper white a/b.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop

http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html

[RogerEle]

Thanks pfigen and Ernst!

Lots to chew on.  I am whooped, sessions today and playing 'guess and check' on a couple of fiber restoration jobs.  Printing seems to go in cycles where everything printed is wonderful and then a cycle where some of whats printed is not so ... I will be so happy when this is dialed in.  Although I am assuming that this is part art and part science and that everything is never 100% dialed in - where would be in the interest in that

Thank you Ernst for all of the detailed suggestions!  It is hugely appreciated!

Roger

[artobest]

I wouldn't give up on the Spyder3; in my experience, it can make good, linear black & white-specific profiles that have got me out of more than one hole in the past (always bearing in mind Ernst's caveat regarding paper OBAs). Averaging multiple readings is an option, since the software makes it so easy anyway.

[RogerEle]

I wouldn't give up on the Spyder3; in my experience, it can make good, linear black & white-specific profiles that have got me out of more than one hole in the past (always bearing in mind Ernst's caveat regarding paper OBAs). Averaging multiple readings is an option, since the software makes it so easy anyway.

With the variables, deciding where to put more time and energy into this becomes a matter of trust ... I really appreciate the Spyder vote of confidence and the feedback!

Roger