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Author Topic: Hobit shot at 48fps  (Read 6878 times)

DaveCurtis

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Hobit shot at 48fps
« on: April 15, 2011, 06:53:07 PM »

I see Peter Jackson is shooting The Hobit down here in NZ at 48fps rather than the usual 24. He is also using RED cameras. The production has bought dozens of them.
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feppe

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Re: Hobit shot at 48fps
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2011, 08:46:18 PM »

I see Peter Jackson is shooting The Hobit down here in NZ at 48fps rather than the usual 24. He is also using RED cameras. The production has bought dozens of them.

He's shooting at 48fps because he's shooting in the latest fad: "3D." I haven't been able to confirm if that means that only the "3D" version of the movie is 48fps, or whether also the 2D version is.

I'm mostly concerned that it'll have the same too-smooth hyperreal video look that utterly, completely and irrecovably ruined the cinematography of both Public Enemies and Miami Vice. I felt so disgusted about the look of the latter I considered demanding my money back - and Michael Mann is in my top 5 directors of all time. Curiously, it worked wonderfully in Collateral which is one of my favorite movies of the previous decade.

In the end I guess 48fps is where we're headed, and in 5-10 years 24fps will start looking outdated - and in 20 it'll be retro cool again. I hope Mr Jackson has the decency to make a good movie, instead of resorting to pure visual bravado, lacking substance and with the misanthropic story like Avatar did.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2011, 08:49:22 PM by feppe »
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Sareesh Sudhakaran

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Re: Hobit shot at 48fps
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2011, 12:56:53 AM »

Shooting at a higher frame rate is actually a technical requirement for 3D. Cameron himself prefers to shoot at 60p or more. It won't matter if the story is told well, will it?
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feppe

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Re: Hobit shot at 48fps
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2011, 06:55:13 AM »

Shooting at a higher frame rate is actually a technical requirement for 3D.

It's not a technical requirement; it's possible to shoot 3D at 24fps, but it would have an effective framerate of 12fps, which would look jerky.

Sareesh Sudhakaran

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Re: Hobit shot at 48fps
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2011, 07:32:30 AM »

You misunderstood my definition of technical requirement. Anyway, the higher the frame rate, the better the 3D effect. 48fps probably is a compromise between 24 and 60fps, plus the fact that PJ uses a lot of slo-mo. It makes perfect sense in his case.
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feppe

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Re: Hobit shot at 48fps
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2011, 10:35:33 AM »

You misunderstood my definition of technical requirement.

No, I didn't; the phrase you used incorrectly implies one needs higher than 24fps to get a 3D effect.

Sareesh Sudhakaran

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Re: Hobit shot at 48fps
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2011, 01:56:39 PM »

You are right. I should have been more precise.
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feppe

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Re: Hobit shot at 48fps
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2011, 02:04:48 PM »

How are the stereo cameras set up - are they both 48fps, or are 2x24fps combined to yield 48fps 3D picture? If latter, it wouldn't help smooth out slomo - although there's some very convincing software available to do that in post (think that's Twixor), technique pioneered by John Gaeta in The Matrix -, and the 2D version of the film would be in traditional 24fps.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2011, 02:07:54 PM by feppe »
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JeffKohn

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Re: Hobit shot at 48fps
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2011, 03:10:04 PM »

I agree with feppe about the effect of higher frame rates as far as regular 2D projection goes. If the 2D version is at 48fps the result would be similar to what you get from some of the newer 120hz flat panel TV's which interpolate to higher frame rates - something I don't care for at all. Some people like that hyper-real 3D look, but I personally would rather not have movies look like soap operas or news broadcasts.

Peter McLennan

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Re: Hobit shot at 48fps
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2011, 04:41:39 PM »

Higher acquisition speeds than the traditional 24 fps used by film cameras have decided advantages.  I shot aerials in Showscan format many years ago and the 60 fps camera rate made for some remarkably clear imagery. However, crystal clear rendition of motion may not be consistent with the film-maker's creative vision.  Motion blur can be attractive to the eye, as any computer animator knows.

James Cameron knows what he's doing.  He's considering using 60 fps for future 3D productions.  "Good!", I say.
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hjulenissen

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Re: Hobit shot at 48fps
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2011, 07:40:31 AM »

I agree with feppe about the effect of higher frame rates as far as regular 2D projection goes. If the 2D version is at 48fps the result would be similar to what you get from some of the newer 120hz flat panel TV's which interpolate to higher frame rates - something I don't care for at all.
I think that the "guesswork" of so-called 120Hz tvs cannot be directly compared to the real information recorded by increased capture rates.

I am all for equipment that has the capability of increased realism. If someone wants the esthetics of jerky 24fps, that is easy to do in postproduction, but the other way around is harder.

-h
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Sareesh Sudhakaran

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Re: Hobit shot at 48fps
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2011, 08:28:02 AM »

Here's an article about someone who probably knows what he is talking about: http://www.geek.com/articles/geek-cetera/james-cameron-wants-avatar-2-to-be-60fps-3d-2011041/
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Graeme Nattress

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Re: Hobit shot at 48fps
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2011, 08:47:46 AM »

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feppe

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Re: Hobit shot at 48fps
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2011, 09:04:47 AM »

Info from Peter Jackson here: http://www.facebook.com/notes/peter-jackson/48-frames-per-second/10150222861171558

Thanks - he puts a clear marketing spin into it, but I'll pass judgment when I see it. It looks like it's 2x48fps, so the 2D version will be available at 48fps as well.

I wonder how Bluray and 2D/3D TV standards work with 48fps and 60fps. It won't go well with the consumers if they are expected to buy a new set in 3-5 years to display 48/60fps.

Graeme Nattress

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Re: Hobit shot at 48fps
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2011, 09:13:41 AM »

Absolutely we need to see it, but there's no reason why it shouldn't look great, and also provide a perfect 24fps extraction for legacy applications - indeed, that's the true beauty of it. Although a bit more expensive in WETA render times for all the VFX, it's almost a no-risk experiment.

Graeme
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John.Murray

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Re: Hobit shot at 48fps
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2011, 07:50:28 PM »

fascinating!  although i truly wish he'd left out the analogy regarding vinyl and cd's - a properly setup and aligned turntable with a decent moving coil cartridge simply blows away any cd.......

Graeme Nattress

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Re: Hobit shot at 48fps
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2011, 07:55:35 PM »

Agreed on the vinyl, John.

Graeme
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feppe

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Re: Hobit shot at 48fps
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2011, 08:00:19 PM »

CDs don't sound like crap because of an inherent shortcoming of the technology, but because of loudness war. You can't press a vinyl with flat audio, ie. lacking headroom (dynamic range) and have it play properly (or so I've heard), but you can do so with CDs.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2011, 08:15:32 PM by feppe »
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Graeme Nattress

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Re: Hobit shot at 48fps
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2011, 08:30:14 PM »

Loudness war certainly doesn't help. There's a lot that can be done in the mastering process that can destroy the music. CD though, as a sound replay medium, has come on a long way since it's inception, and when done well, it can be quite superb indeed. The main issues I see with digital audio are not in that it's sampled, but that often such poor filters are used in the sampling and reconstruction process.

Graeme
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John.Murray

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Re: Hobit shot at 48fps
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2011, 11:37:13 PM »

Graeme:  Agreed!  In respect to "loudness" or more properly dynamic range; analog media such as an LP is capable of storing relevant musical information well under the noise floor, not to mention intangibles such as timing and pace.  Great or poor engineering is exactly that, irrespective of the medium.

Feppe:  Two legendary mastering engineers, Stan Ricker and Bob Ludwig would disagree with you.

Finally, I don't mean to hijack this thread or confuse the issue - digital audio is quite a different thing than digital imaging, primarilly because of the issues raised in the Stereophile article.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2011, 11:47:37 PM by John.Murray »
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