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Author Topic: New Camera To Print video–what do you want?  (Read 13473 times)

Christoph C. Feldhaim

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Re: New Camera To Print video–what do you want?
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2011, 12:29:07 PM »

I think this isn't an "either or" situation.

I'd not wish a tutorial on photography as an art, of course - thats really something different, I believe.
But there are techniques in postprocessing which help to achieve a certain look, whatever the artistic idea behind may be or not.

E.G. it took me a long time to start using local adjustments seriously. The whole issue of midtone contrast control, the use and abuse of clarity took me ages to understand halfway correctly. Sharpening still has a lot of open questions for me.

Thats why I called what I'd wish "advanced postprocessing" - techniques on how to control important
parts of the look of an image, whatever the artistic intention behind may be.

I often feel like being much on my own when postprocessing images and trying to achieve a certain look.

Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: New Camera To Print video–what do you want?
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2011, 01:59:38 PM »

-1   :o

I think the discussion of artistic issues is best left to a different series.

the existing Camera2Print series has always (IMO) stressed a more technical 'how-to' path.
I agree. There have been excellent suggestions here so far and they pretty much cover my own wish list.

I would very much like to see a separate video in which Michael and Jeff (and perhaps one or two others) each pick a few images that they like and discuss the aesthetic decisions involved in making each, and perhaps how each might have approached a scene/subject differently. Each participant should be willing to say something about what they want viewers to get from an image, and the others should comment on how successful they think the photographer was.

Questions of B&W vs. color, centering vs. "rule of thirds", etc. might be touched on, too. But not in the Camera2Print series.

Eric

P.S. Jeff's shirts would be a primary tie-in between the technical and the arty series.  ;)
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francois

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Re: New Camera To Print video–what do you want?
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2011, 02:12:43 PM »

…I would very much like to see a separate video in which Michael and Jeff (and perhaps one or two others) each pick a few images that they like and discuss the aesthetic decisions involved in making each, and perhaps how each might have approached a scene/subject differently.…
Yes, I agree 100%. Let's keep C2P a technical thing and have a different tutorial for more aesthetic related topics.
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Francois

jaapb

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Re: New Camera To Print video–what do you want?
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2011, 02:33:14 PM »


Soft proofing
paper selection
printing on canvas
output sharpening options, as well as how to use each of the solutions
why are prints often too dark?
and understanding of how ink is actually put down onto paper
screen to print matching
how to evaluate a print, but subjectively and objectively (by using a standard evaluation image with different 'tests' on the printed image). This is a huge one, to be honest, and one that requires a step by step approach so people can easily understand.

Andy pretty much sums it up AFAIC, some are "old" subjects but new insights. Just as much as Jeff and Michael closed the discussion about resolution in C2P I (although technology moved forward) maybe it is time to close the discussion on "why are my prints too dark" in C2P II (guest appearance Andrew Rodney?).
Additionally:
-B&W printing
-File preparation for books and offsite printing (labs and photobooks like Blurb)
-Photokit sharpener 2 (local contrast)
-In C2P I it was difficult to see subtle changes on the laptop screens and differences between prints (matte and lustre) I suppose the new videocameras are able to record these differences much better. Now let's hope Mike's shirt doesn't show moire patterns  ;D

Jaap
« Last Edit: April 14, 2011, 03:33:17 PM by jaapb »
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Schewe

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Re: New Camera To Print video–what do you want?
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2011, 02:52:21 PM »

-In C2P I it was difficult to see subtle changes on the laptap screens and differences between prints (matte and lustre) I suppose the new videocameras are able to record these differences much better. Now let's hope Mike's shirt doesn't show moire patterns  ;D

That's one of the main reasons we decided to reshoot the whole thing. The first C2P was shot in HD but not cut and released in HD. The last couple of videos we've shot are now shot, edited and released in HD so what we show on screen will be much better. And yeah, I am worried about Mike's shirt having moire...I think we need to hire a stylist :~)

As far as the art/tech debate, we are planning on talking about the "art of printing" which will go into some of the aesthetic aspects of determining what a good image and print is all about. We'll also be doing a site visit to a working gallery where we'll talk with the gallery owner about the commerce of selling prints. Mike no longer has his gallery so we decided to visit a successful gallery to talk about that.
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AFairley

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Re: New Camera To Print video–what do you want?
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2011, 04:14:15 PM »

I'd like to add a vote to do more on soft proofing - not just how to DO soft proofing, but examples of the steps to go through to get your image looking good again AFTER turning on soft proofing.
Kevin

Absolutely on this! 
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digitaldog

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Re: New Camera To Print video–what do you want?
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2011, 04:17:55 PM »

But I keep hearing from some of the guru’s that soft proofing doesn’t work.

Absolutely on this! 
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Andrew Rodney
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Mark D Segal

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Re: New Camera To Print video–what do you want?
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2011, 04:20:13 PM »

But I keep hearing from some of the guru’s that soft proofing doesn’t work.


Good for them. When the video is produced they should buy it and learn something.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: New Camera To Print video–what do you want?
« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2011, 04:24:06 PM »

One thing I didn't see mentioned is how to specifically deal with non-printer maker papers.  Most of us who use Epson/Canon printers use papers from Canson, Hahnemuhle, etc.  We then need to decide on whether to use the manufacturers suggestion for paper setting and their profile or do it ourselves.  The profiling part is straight forward and I understand the science and technology behind that.  However, the paper settings are somewhat of a black box.  I remember a post from Mark Dubovoy on why he doesn't use manufacturer's settings but I found it a little opaque to understand.  I know that Jeff and Michael being excellent pedagogues will illuminate this issue for the rest of us.
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Schewe

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Re: New Camera To Print video–what do you want?
« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2011, 04:29:25 PM »

I know that Jeff and Michael being excellent pedagogues will illuminate this issue for the rest of us.

Yes, we will be covering working with 3rd party papers...

BTW, I had to look up pedagogue to see whether or not I should be offended...seems I "might" be offended depending on which meaning you meant; a teacher or educator, a pedantic or dogmatic teacher...also wondering a little bit about; A Roman slave who took children to school and on outings, but also taught them—from Greek ped, "child," and agein, "to lead."

:~)
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: New Camera To Print video–what do you want?
« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2011, 04:48:51 PM »

Yes, we will be covering working with 3rd party papers...

BTW, I had to look up pedagogue to see whether or not I should be offended...seems I "might" be offended depending on which meaning you meant; a teacher or educator, a pedantic or dogmatic teacher...also wondering a little bit about; A Roman slave who took children to school and on outings, but also taught them—from Greek ped, "child," and agein, "to lead."

:~)
That will teach me to use the $50 word when the 10 cent word, "educator" would have sufficed.
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feppe

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Re: New Camera To Print video–what do you want?
« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2011, 04:50:03 PM »

An update about the color gamut of dye vs pigment printers would be interesting.

Seconded. Every year I have an urge to update my dye i9950, but every time I get discouraged by the lack of deep blacks with glossy and (some claim) smaller gamut. I'm aware of longevity and other advantages of pigment printers, but since they are more expensive per print at printer widths up to 17" last time I checked, I need a compelling reason to move to pigment since I print for myself. So once again instead of moving to 17" pigment I replaced the print head on my i9950.

I bet many looking for a proper photo printer are struggling with the pros and cons between dye and pigment, and getting that sorted out for this generation of inks and printers would be very helpful.

Mark D Segal

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Re: New Camera To Print video–what do you want?
« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2011, 04:53:10 PM »

That will teach me to use the $50 word when the 10 cent word, "educator" would have sufficed.

True, but a pedagogue is a real sophisticated educator, so I thought it was most appropriate!  Just too bad it starts with "ped". :-)
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml

Mark D Segal

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Re: New Camera To Print video–what do you want?
« Reply #33 on: April 14, 2011, 05:39:05 PM »

Seconded. Every year I have an urge to update my dye i9950, but every time I get discouraged by the lack of deep blacks with glossy and (some claim) smaller gamut. I'm aware of longevity and other advantages of pigment printers, but since they are more expensive per print at printer widths up to 17" last time I checked, I need a compelling reason to move to pigment since I print for myself. So once again instead of moving to 17" pigment I replaced the print head on my i9950.

I bet many looking for a proper photo printer are struggling with the pros and cons between dye and pigment, and getting that sorted out for this generation of inks and printers would be very helpful.

I agree it would be useful to cover that topic, but I'm not sure how many are really struggling with this question. I have a sense that this debate is essentially over-with. From all I hear and see these days, it would appear that pigment has AT LEAST caught-up - but sure, let the gurus tell us as they understand it.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml

Ernst Dinkla

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Re: New Camera To Print video–what do you want?
« Reply #34 on: April 15, 2011, 04:05:57 AM »

I agree it would be useful to cover that topic, but I'm not sure how many are really struggling with this question. I have a sense that this debate is essentially over-with. From all I hear and see these days, it would appear that pigment has AT LEAST caught-up - but sure, let the gurus tell us as they understand it.

They could at least tell that spectrometers are on their limits with measurements of both pigment and dye gloss black Dmax. Not to mention our eyes in normal display conditions, if you have to get outdoors to see the shadow details of a 2.5 Dmax print that is then framed behind glass for indoor use you may wonder who is fooling himself. There is a better Dmax of black dye on matte art papers but it isn't a lasting Dmax, not even when framed.

Seems a nice topic for the print video: How to estimate best shadow detail/tonal range for framed and unframed prints, gloss, satin or matte, FBA effect change, adapted softproofing for all cases. Whether a gloss print should be framed.

met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

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stefano

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Re: New Camera To Print video–what do you want?
« Reply #35 on: April 15, 2011, 04:57:40 AM »

In addition to the technical topics above, I think a mention of a camera to web workflow would also be very interesting. After all, the web is a big part of the way by which most of us interact with other photographers and with the public, and to me producing quality images for the web is as important as producing quality prints for sale.

Looking forward to the new video!
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Peter Mellis

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Re: New Camera To Print video–what do you want?
« Reply #36 on: April 15, 2011, 10:06:35 AM »

As I still shoot some film and have a lifetime of negatives and slides that I occasionally want to print from, I would like to have you talk about scanning. If this is too complicated to go into, in depth, as part of this video, perhaps you would consider doing a standalone video on this subject. You could do a survey or e-mail to see how much of the LL readership would be interested/purchase such a video.
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azmike

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Re: New Camera To Print video–what do you want?
« Reply #37 on: April 16, 2011, 04:14:58 PM »

Jeff,   thank you for asking.  I recall that you did this (asked for input) for the first video, and I could see some of the comments addressed in the video. 

Most commenters have spoken well on the "process" and "how to" topics.

Let me take Andy Biggs suggestion: "how to evaluate a print" a bit further.  Most of us are pretty skilled and we think we're doing a pretty good job at C2P, i.e. we've learned the process.  But I suspect most of us would have a hard time looking at a given print and assessing whether the print is "good", "excellent", or "best possible."  What if you and Michael took say six prints, each done by a thoughtful Lula photographer, and evaluated them in terms of C2P issues, and then did a subsequent evaluation of the image reprinted per your suggestions.  It could be a powerful conclusion to the process/how-to instruction. And for at least myself it might make some good prints become excellent prints.

Mike Coffey
Prescott, Arizona
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Peter McLennan

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Re: New Camera To Print video–what do you want?
« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2011, 04:33:46 PM »

Printer TLC.  Dealing with and preventing clogs.  Head and paper path cleaning and maintenance.
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kimballistic

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Re: New Camera To Print video–what do you want?
« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2011, 08:31:42 PM »

Let me take Andy Biggs suggestion: "how to evaluate a print" a bit further.  Most of us are pretty skilled and we think we're doing a pretty good job at C2P, i.e. we've learned the process.  But I suspect most of us would have a hard time looking at a given print and assessing whether the print is "good", "excellent", or "best possible."  What if you and Michael took say six prints, each done by a thoughtful Lula photographer, and evaluated them in terms of C2P issues, and then did a subsequent evaluation of the image reprinted per your suggestions.  It could be a powerful conclusion to the process/how-to instruction. And for at least myself it might make some good prints become excellent prints.

Strongly seconded (thirded?).

If we need a video, we are relatively new to printing.  If we are new to printing, we need help evaluating prints and knowing quality when we see it.

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