ifp6300 question - PK vs MK for Hahnemuhle

[brianz]

I just got my Canon ipf6300 and am going through some paper samples from Red River and Hahnemuhle.  I'm trying to understand the difference between Hahnemuhle's PK and MK profiles.  My printer only came with Black (BK) and Matte Black (MBK).  There's no Photo Black (PB).  Why is PB used, and how is it used?  Would it be substituted for Matte Black, and if so, why?

Also, if some papers only have profiles specific to either PK or MK, does that mean you shouldn't use them with the other ink?

I am new to this...

Thanks!
Brian

[neile]

PB is the same as PK, they're just using different letters to indicate the same thing. PB/PK is intended for glossy papers, and MK/MBK is for matte.

I would expect that all of the paper profiles for the Hahnemuhle papers are only available in either a photo black or matte black variation. They don't generally cross-mix across paper types. Glossy/Photo black for glossy paper, matte black for matte paper.

Neil

[howardm]

PK and MK refer to Epson's PhotoBlack and MatteBlack.  My guess is that your PB is what Epson and everyone else would call PhotoBlack.  It's just semantics.  Not surprisingly, matte papers generally do better w/ matte black

[brianz]

Thanks guys.  So for the Canon, I assume the "Black" is actually "photo black" - as mentioned Canon just provides Matte Black and Black, no "photo black."  I may not have been clear originally.

So, assuming the above is correct, is there anything I should know or configure prior to using a Hahnemuhle paper that is specific to the use of one black or another?  Or is that all done automatically by the profile and print driver?

Maybe I'm thinking too hard about this... I am coming from consumer 4x6 printers.  I'm just struggling to understand why Hahnemuhle is pointing out which black cartridge is being used if nothing needs to be changed or configured... ?

[MHMG]

Maybe I'm thinking too hard about this... I am coming from consumer 4x6 printers.  I'm just struggling to understand why Hahnemuhle is pointing out which black cartridge is being used if nothing needs to be changed or configured... ?

Because the choice of PK or MK ink is dependent on which black ink chemistry is best suited for the chosen paper (i.e. which ink produces maximum density, lowest bronzing, best adhesion, etc.). So, to use a generic ICC profile made by the paper manufacturer, you have to duplicate all machine settings used to make the profile. That would be things like media setting, print quality settings such as 8 bit or 16 bit, dpi settings, uni-directional or not, vacuum strength, platten width, etc. etc.  Some settings have big effects, some not so big, but for maximum profile accuracy, you need to do your best to match all machine settings that can have an influence on how the printer/ink/media work together.

I understand the Canon ImageproGraf X300 series printers have the ability to save custom media setting files, and that some vendors are providing them for their generic profiles made for the Canon printers. If Hahnemuhle offer that custom media setting profile for the paper you want to try, then that's the best way to get all those pesky settings to match up. You should also run the Canon printer calibration. If Hahnemuhle team knows their stuff, they will have calibrated their X300 printer before printing the profiling targets. Your calibrated printer should then match theirs pretty well, and the profile should turn in excellent results.  Better yet, consider having a custom profile custom built for your printer and environment

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

[neile]

So, assuming the above is correct, is there anything I should know or configure prior to using a Hahnemuhle paper that is specific to the use of one black or another?  Or is that all done automatically by the profile and print driver?

When you go to print you'll need to set two things to make this all work properly:

1) The paper profile, which you've downloaded from Hahnemuhle
2) The media type

For #1 there's varying schools of thought, but you should set this EITHER in your image editing software (Photoshop, Lightroom, etc.) OR in the Canon printer dialog, but not both. Personally I set it in the software when I'm in Lightroom, but set it in the Canon dialog when I'm exporting to the printer from Photoshop.

#2 is what determines whether matte or glossy black ink gets used by the printer. You need to dig around on the Hahnemuhle site to find out which media type they used when they generated their profile, and then use the same media type in the printer's configuration dialog when you print.

They have this in a PDF file on the ICC profile page, located at http://www.hahnemuehle.com/media/HFA_Can6350_PK_HandlingInstruction.pdf. It appears that for all their glossy papers you should use Special 5 as the media type, and for all their matte papers and canvas you should use Special 9.

Hope this helps!

Neil

[neile]

Thanks guys.  So for the Canon, I assume the "Black" is actually "photo black" - as mentioned Canon just provides Matte Black and Black, no "photo black."  I may not have been clear originally.

Correct. Canon's naming convention on the cartridges for this stuff is "MBK" for the matte black and "BK" for the photo black.

And honestly, none of this really matters As long as you use the media type specified by the paper manufacturer when you use their profile, you'll get the right ink automatically. See my post above for where to get the right media type from.

Neil

[brianz]

Correct. Canon's naming convention on the cartridges for this stuff is "MBK" for the matte black and "BK" for the photo black.

And honestly, none of this really matters As long as you use the media type specified by the paper manufacturer when you use their profile, you'll get the right ink automatically. See my post above for where to get the right media type from.

Neil

Thanks so much, this helps.

What does "media type" really add to the whole process though?  I am confused by that.  Isn't that redundant with the paper profile?  I don't understand why both need to be specified... shouldn't the paper profile be sufficient to tell the printer which black ink to use?  And it doesn't seem like all 3rd party paper types correlate well with Canon's choices of media types, so there's some guesswork (except for Hahnemuhle who spells it out nicely for us).

My prints on the 8.5x11 samples look absolutely fantastic, and I'm getting what I expect, but I'm just trying to understand the details... thanks for any further clarity on "media type".

[neile]

The paper profile only contains colour tables for mapping colours (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICC_profile for the gory details).

The media type specifies things like drying time, head height, vacuum strength, ink type, feed amounts, valid feed paths, minimum edge margins, and a whole bunch of other things I'm probably not even aware of. And yes, they don't correlate well In practice you will find you use a limited number of media types. On the Canon printers it's usually Special 5 or Heavyweight Semi-Glossy Photo Paper 2 for glossy paper and pretty much exclusively Premium Matte Paper for matte paper.

All of the paper manufacturers will tell you what media type they used for the profile. Sometimes it's a standalone file on the website. Sometimes it's included in a PDF in a zip file along with the profile. Sometimes it's in the filename of the profile proper.

Neil

[Light Seeker]

To add to what neile has said, the media type defines how ink is delivered to the paper. For example, the media type will set the "ink load", or how much ink is applied when printing occurs. Too little ink means weaker blacks and less colour saturation. Too much ink can overload the paper and negatively impact blacks, among other things.

So. . . it's important to select a media type that works well with your paper, and then build a profile for that combination. When a manufacturer's provides a profile and recommended media settings, that's exactly what they have done. When you print with this combination you will get good prints.

Terry.

[milt]

I believe Hahnemuhle organizes their profiles around the issue of the black ink in use BECAUSE on many Epson printers you have to change the black ink cartridge manually before you print.  On the Canon ipf series you don't have to do this, but Hahnemuhle has chosen to keep a consistent way of naming and organizing their profiles across the two printer lines.

--Milt--

[brianz]

Thanks everybody, this clears it all up!  I am getting great results with my Red River and Hahnemuhle samples.