CFV 50

[Rob C]

You know, I'm not exactly broke, but reading these posts and the easy acceptance of the prices that the backs command makes me wonder how we have generally become conditioned to being screwed so thoroughly.

Even if I were not retired I would still cast a more than jaundiced eye at the selling game that's currently on in photography.

It smells like a fish shop on a Friday afternoon.

Rob C.

[stewarthemley]

"The arquitect had a Xk 150 and sometimes he brought me for a ride in downtown. I was amazed by the car."
********
And it was just like my British motorcycle that needed a baking tin under the crankcase to catch the dripping oil. :>)

Steve

My Norton leaked but wow, did it handle (for it's day). Used to think the XK 150 3.8 S was my favourite car, followed closely by the 3.8 E Type but now the Austin Healey 3000 is gaining ground.
Re leaking: my friend has a modern Ferrari. Its magnificent but he has taken to carrying a bucket with him to store the bits that fall off. I guess the story is - designed by a genuis, built by monkeys. Sorry for being so OT.

[John R Smith]

Rob

I do sympathise with your point of view. For those of us who grew up with film, the price of cameras now seems mind-boggling.

But, to be fair, high-end MF gear always was (relatively) very expensive. I remember staring into the window of Truro Photographic back in about 1982, wishing that I could even think about affording the beautiful Hasselblads. Let alone one with more than one lens. Eventually I managed to scrape enough cash together for a Rollei 2.8F (secondhand), and that was the limit of my ambition.

Looking at it today, a film magazine for a 500 'Blad is over £700, new. And I think an 'H' system film mag is more like £1,800. And of course you have to have at least two magazines, and preferably three. The 50mm Zeiss lens was over £3,000 last time I looked. All of that is nothing to do with digital.

The market for MF digital backs (especially those dedicated to the V-system) is tiny, a few thousand world-wide for all MF DBs from all manufacturers. Against the possible sales you have to factor in the R&D, tooling costs, specialised manufacturing facilities (clean rooms etc), paying Kodak or Dalsa the huge prices they demand for large sensors, the cost of warranty returns on a low unit turnover, and in the case of the CFV it has to be assembled by hand (no automated assembly) because it matches the film mags with all the polished chrome and leatherette covering as per the classic 500.

Now, I'm no apologist for the camera manufacturers. But even if you take digital out of the equation, and want to shoot film with brand-new MF gear, it's still not going to be cheap. And it never was.

John

[gazwas]

You know, I'm not exactly broke, but reading these posts and the easy acceptance of the prices that the backs command makes me wonder how we have generally become conditioned to being screwed so thoroughly.

While I know we are being charged a lot for these backs, I'm not that sure we're being screwed. The parts (chip) are expensive to manufacture and buy and the numbers sold are not massive, coupled with the cost of development is bound to push the price up. Also you need to remember Hass/Phase/Leaf etc are a business and not a charity for poor photographers. They don't make cameras for the love of our photography but to make money.

Also when I think back to the amount of film and polaroid we used to get through in one week, (I include 5x4 film and polaroid as the digi backs can be mounted on view cameras) E6 chemistry, (boy that was expensive) the time and fuel costs from trips to the lab and the presentation tranny mounts we supplied to clients, you could pay for a new digital back every 12 months.

I'm glad that cost side of the business has gone now I'm self employed, especially as the one off hit costs of a digi back lasts for years and film, polaroid, chemistry and lab costs just kept getting more expensive year on year.

[yaya]

While I know we are being charged a lot for these backs, I'm not that sure we're being screwed. The parts (chip) are expensive to manufacture and buy and the numbers sold are not massive, coupled with the cost of development is bound to push the price up. Also you need to remember Hass/Phase/Leaf etc are a business and not a charity for poor photographers. They don't make cameras for the love of our photography but to make money.

You forgot our 7 bedroom suburb house, 5 series beemer, the wife's Cayane, the kid's private education fees and the annual holiday in the Bahamas (a 7-day ski holiday in France doesn't count)...this all has to be paid from somewhere...

back to reality now...

[John R Smith]

You forgot our 7 bedroom suburb house, 5 series beemer, the wife's Cayane, the kid's private education fees and the annual holiday in the Bahamas (a 7-day ski holiday in France doesn't count)...this all has to be paid from somewhere...

Well, it's very comforting to know that we are all doing our bit to keep you afloat, Yair. I was going to suggest a whip-round from the Forum members, but it looks like you are OK for the moment . . .

  John

[nazdravanul]

You forgot our 7 bedroom suburb house, 5 series beemer, the wife's Cayane, the kid's private education fees and the annual holiday in the Bahamas (a 7-day ski holiday in France doesn't count)...this all has to be paid from somewhere...

back to reality now...

This particular post has definitely made up my mind . I do not want to contribute to your burgeois decadence in any way so, bye bye Leaf Aptus II - hello CFV50, for me ).

[JV]

Now, I'm no apologist for the camera manufacturers. But even if you take digital out of the equation, and want to shoot film with brand-new MF gear, it's still not going to be cheap. And it never was.

A brand new Rollei Hy6 (body, magazine, lens) is about $8-10K, a brand new Hasselblad 503CW about $7-8K.  Not cheap, I concur, and it never has been.  That being said, adding $4-5K to the price of an existing back, or twice the price of a 5D MkII, just for a nice LCD screen does feel a bit like stretching it...

[John R Smith]

Right, Yair and Doug -

Here's the challenge. Dale Photographic are currently offering the CFV-50 for £11,336 GBP including taxes. What can Leaf and Phase offer for that price, brand new, to fit the V-series Hasselblads? And if you can match the price, I bet it's not 50 MP 

John

[fredjeang]

The answer, buy the virtually new cameras/backs on offer from those awfully nice "gentlemen photographers" when they upgrade to the latest-greatest bleeding-edge super-duper sugar-candy.
 
And all this at a fraction of the original price. Let some other bugger take the hit.

The wisest indeed !

[Rob C]

Well, either I've done a Rip Van Winkel since I was buying film 'blads and lenses, filters, tubes and prisms etc. or you guys are all far richer than I ever was.

If a 503CW now costs 7-8k dollars and sounds reasonable, then I suggest that the screw doesn't stop turning at digi either! Any real r&d on that must have been finished a hundred years ago; ditto any Zeiss lenses to fit.

I wish I'd kept my set of 'blad bodies and optics, even if they never saw another film. Come to think of it, the dough I've thrown at digital Nikon in the past few years would probably have taken care of a digital back anyway...

;-(

Rob C

[uaiomex]

MF was more expensive than 35mm cameras but not 10X. The MF market for digital is small now because most of those photographers had to move to FF. The V system market share actually was the biggest asset that medium format ever had and they let it die (almost). I got tired of waiting for prices to come down to sensible levels. Nowadays my V system is locked in a cabinet with dehumidifiers and I spend all my money buying the best glass I can afford for my 5D's. Most of that money is forever gone and away from MF manufacturers hands. I spent a few years reading these forums asking questions and such because I naively was waiting for "my" digital back.
My posts here are mostly nostalgic cause I lost faith. I'm 58, if lucky I may be able to afford a used P45+ in 4-5 years. The 5DIV of tomorrow will be awsome and more fun than ever. Digital MF is for a few chosen. The first time in the history of "religions" that the real chosen ones add up.
Eduardo

The market for MF digital backs (especially those dedicated to the V-system) is tiny, a few thousand world-wide for all MF DBs from all manufacturers. Against the possible sales you have to factor in the R&D, tooling costs, specialised manufacturing facilities (clean rooms etc), paying Kodak or Dalsa the huge prices they demand for large sensors, the cost of warranty returns on a low unit turnover, and in the case of the CFV it has to be assembled by hand (no automated assembly) because it matches the film mags with all the polished chrome and leatherette covering as per the classic 500.

Now, I'm no apologist for the camera manufacturers. But even if you take digital out of the equation, and want to shoot film with brand-new MF gear, it's still not going to be cheap. And it never was.

John

[ondebanks]

MF was more expensive than 35mm cameras but not 10X. The MF market for digital is small now because most of those photographers had to move to FF. The V system market share actually was the biggest asset that medium format ever had and they let it die (almost). I got tired of waiting for prices to come down to sensible levels. Nowadays my V system is locked in a cabinet with dehumidifiers and I spend all my money buying the best glass I can afford for my 5D's. Most of that money is forever gone and away from MF manufacturers hands. I spent a few years reading these forums asking questions and such because I naively was waiting for "my" digital back.
My posts here are mostly nostalgic cause I lost faith. I'm 58, if lucky I may be able to afford a used P45+ in 4-5 years. The 5DIV of tomorrow will be awsome and more fun than ever. Digital MF is for a few chosen. The first time in the history of "religions" that the real chosen ones add up.
Eduardo

Eduardo, if you can afford 5Ds (plural) and "the best glass" for them (meaning, I presume, Canon L glass), then you can afford a used digital back for your V system. Ever looked into this option? Or was it that you were put off by the crop factor of the square 16/17MP backs?

Ray

[uaiomex]

Ray:
I meant first for my 5D and now for my 5D2. I am slowly replacing old gear and getting L glass for sure. Now I own a 17-40, 70-200f4IS, 17TS, buying a 24TS and then the new versions of the other TS's when they show up.
It's a psique thing but for me digital medium format starts at 48X36. That means expensive unless I keep with the old 22mp sensors but since I'd use it for fashion/portrait they are no go because of moire. So that leaves the very old backs with no lcd. Again, no go.
The real trouble is that very few photographers have a big chunk of money to think: What system? It happens one lens at the time. If I started saving for a say... a used P45+ 5 years ago, I would be getting close to buy this dream back but then again, all this time (5 years) I would still be shooting with a 20D and some so so glass and way behind my local competition (gear-wise). No go.

KLaban:
How does it feel? !!!! 

Eduardo, if you can afford 5Ds (plural) and "the best glass" for them (meaning, I presume, Canon L glass), then you can afford a used digital back for your V system. Ever looked into this option? Or was it that you were put off by the crop factor of the square 16/17MP backs?

Ray

[carloalberto]

Hi everyone. Thank you for for sharing your expertise in this informative thread. I'm from the old generation coming from film and have a good selection of Hasselblad V bodies and lenses. I'm retired with no way to amortize or easily afford a new digital back. The suggestion to buy used from a wealthy amateur or similar source sounds very practical. Can any one of point me in the right direction where to begin looking? Is the CV 50 used on offer anywhere yet? Or is it still too new? How much would I save on the new price? Or is a CV 39 the only option? I live in Europe so the US market is impractical, both for the high import duties and taxes I would have to pay and, I guess, for future service facilities should they become necessary.

[donaldt]

you made me look like an idiot in my office looking at this post

anyway even with the prism finder it is still an awkward camera to shoot horizontal
it was never meant to be that way
just imagine the elegant Hass held horizontal
cant help but to think the one using the camera is a retard

its like the other day when I saw someone using the Nikon D3 shooting horizontal like one would do with a D700 (like it has no horizontal grip)

Just don't forget to work on a horizontal composition on your V camera (sorry couldn't resist...) 

[donaldt]

I continue to hear people saying how the Dalsa is better
but seriously what are the differences?

Kodak KAF-51000
http://www.kodak.com/global/en/business/ISS/Products/Fullframe/KAF-50100/specs.jhtml

Damn fine sensor - I only wish that PhaseOne would use it (for the long exposure capability, which their Dalsa ones completely lack).

[John R Smith]

Hi everyone. Thank you for for sharing your expertise in this informative thread. I'm from the old generation coming from film and have a good selection of Hasselblad V bodies and lenses. I'm retired with no way to amortize or easily afford a new digital back. The suggestion to buy used from a wealthy amateur or similar source sounds very practical. Can any one of point me in the right direction where to begin looking? Is the CV 50 used on offer anywhere yet? Or is it still too new? How much would I save on the new price? Or is a CV 39 the only option? I live in Europe so the US market is impractical, both for the high import duties and taxes I would have to pay and, I guess, for future service facilities should they become necessary.

Carlo

There does not seem to be much of a market yet for s/h CFV backs. Certainly the 50 is far too new to be available used, although there might be a few of the 39 around I suppose. About a year ago quite a few folks were selling the CFV-16 to upgrade to the 39, but the 16 is old tech now and the crop factor of 1.6x is a real problem.

I would be very careful about purchasing any MF DB from a private seller, and would stick with a reputable dealer and Hasselblad Partner if at all possible. These things are very expensive to fix if they go wrong.

John

[John R Smith]

anyway even with the prism finder it is still an awkward camera to shoot horizontal
it was never meant to be that way
just imagine the elegant Hass held horizontal
cant help but to think the one using the camera is a retard

With a 90 deg prism fitted, there is really no problem shooting in portrait format with a Hasselblad 500. This is absolutely nothing new, and nothing to do with digital backs either. Since at least 1960, we have had 16-frame 645 film magazines for the V-system, so it has always been a 645 camera if you wished to use it that way. And it is no more awkward to hold in portrait format than any other MF camera. There is a motordrive with right-hand grip and incorporated shutter release as well for hand-held work. If you don't want a motordrive you can fit an 'L' grip.

The new Leica S2 and the Pentax 645D are more ergonomically designed for rectangular format shooting, of course. And this may well be the way of the future for MF. But what you gain in ergonomics you sacrifice in terms of modularity and flexibility - interchangeable film and digital magazines, interchangeable prisms, finders and screens. Many younger photographers simply don't know about, and have had no experience of, a proper camera system. A system which means that you literally assemble exactly the camera you want for any particular task, where all the various parts of the system are fully integrated, superbly built, and function perfectly. Even the H-system does not come anywhere close to the flexibility we had with the old 500s.

Here is just part of my working kit -

John

[carloalberto]

Carlo

There does not seem to be much of a market yet for s/h CFV backs. Certainly the 50 is far too new to be available used, although there might be a few of the 39 around I suppose. About a year ago quite a few folks were selling the CFV-16 to upgrade to the 39, but the 16 is old tech now and the crop factor of 1.6x is a real problem.

I would be very careful about purchasing any MF DB from a private seller, and would stick with a reputable dealer and Hasselblad Partner if at all possible. These things are very expensive to fix if they go wrong.

John


Thanks John. Good advice. I will check with the dealer in Amsterdam.