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Author Topic: Mac computers with Thunderbolt?  (Read 6142 times)

mcfoto

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Mac computers with Thunderbolt?
« on: April 02, 2011, 10:49:42 am »

Any thoughts on the new Mac Pro laptops using Thunderbolt and not USB 3.0? Even the new Phase One back is using USB 3.0. Why another port or why did Mac not support USB 3.0?
Denis
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Mac computers with Thunderbolt?
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2011, 10:55:36 am »

Any thoughts on the new Mac Pro laptops using Thunderbolt and not USB 3.0? Even the new Phase One back is using USB 3.0. Why another port or why did Mac not support USB 3.0?
Denis



Seems quite standard for Apple. The idea of them adding USB 3 after PC's already have it? How does adding USB 3! make an Apple-like splash? It doesn't. So, Apple, being Apple, create their own standard that eclipses. Love them or hate them for it, but Apple is not a follower.


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RobSaecker

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Re: Mac computers with Thunderbolt?
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2011, 11:49:19 am »

Thunderbolt will allow you to connect via USB 3, as soon as the proper adaptors are available. When that will be is anyone's guess.

See http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2011/02/thunderbolt-smokes-usb-firewire-with-10gbps-throughput.ars for a pretty good explanation of what Thunderbolt is capable of.
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Schewe

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Re: Mac computers with Thunderbolt?
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2011, 03:09:36 pm »

So, Apple, being Apple, create their own standard that eclipses. Love them or hate them for it, but Apple is not a follower.

Actually, Thunderbolt is an Intel initiative, not Apple's. Apple jumped on it first but other PC makers will follow.
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Mac computers with Thunderbolt?
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2011, 05:56:32 pm »


From what I understand, Apples main involvement was to help Intel create the copper connector, and adapted the mini-display port to handle both display and thunderbolt protocols. Certainly it may have been more than that, but for this, Intel gave them a 1 year "exclusive", I assume that means other PC makers can't use the port ... hopefully other types of devices can or the port will have little application.

As far as USB 3, personally I think it's probably short lived ... while it sounds impressive, Thunderbolt blows by it, and is projected to scale to 10 times its current bandwidth.  Given apples intimate knowledge of Thunderbolt(LightPeak) I'm not surprised they decided to skip USB 3.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mac computers with Thunderbolt?
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2011, 07:37:00 pm »

From what I understand, Apples main involvement was to help Intel create the copper connector, and adapted the mini-display port to handle both display and thunderbolt protocols. Certainly it may have been more than that, but for this, Intel gave them a 1 year "exclusive", I assume that means other PC makers can't use the port ... hopefully other types of devices can or the port will have little application.

As far as USB 3, personally I think it's probably short lived ... while it sounds impressive, Thunderbolt blows by it, and is projected to scale to 10 times its current bandwidth.  Given apples intimate knowledge of Thunderbolt(LightPeak) I'm not surprised they decided to skip USB 3.

Hum... except it doesn't make sense to have exclusivity for an interface. An I/F gains value by adoption through the number of peripherals supporting it. :)

From that standpoint Apple is heading straight for a repeat of firewire that had some value compared to USB 2.0, but USB 2.0 was good enough. I am aware of the differences in terms of licensing between Firewire and Thunderbolt, but I don't think that is significant.

Intel's lack of support of USB3.0 will only hurt them, I don't think it will change the market dynamic very significantly.

Cheers,
Bernard

davidewers

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Re: Mac computers with Thunderbolt?
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2011, 07:42:57 pm »

Intel is supporting usb 3.0 this is an old article from intel

http://blogs.intel.com/technology/2008/06/usb_30_for_the_masses_dispelli.php?wapkw=(usb+3.)
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John.Murray

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Re: Mac computers with Thunderbolt?
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2011, 08:02:55 pm »

Unlike either Firewire or USB, Thunderbolt is a true bus protocol implemented at the chipset.  Apple's implementation is quite elegant and IMHO make a lot of sense.  Intel's next generation of workstation (x79) should be out next fall, I'm very curious what the Thunderbolt connector implementation will be......
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Mac computers with Thunderbolt?
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2011, 11:06:16 pm »

Hum... except it doesn't make sense to have exclusivity for an interface. An I/F gains value by adoption through the number of peripherals supporting it. :)

agreed, that's why I commented most likely the exclusive is only PC makers, otherwise the interface is pointless.  I believe some drive makers have already announced plans to implement it, and I think CAnon has also announced they will implement it.  It will take some time for this to trickle into these peripherals, so delaying it in other brands of PC's really doesn't dilute it, since by the time significant numbers of devices support it the exclusive will be over.

Thunderbolt should render USB 3 a legacy interface.  this isn't a firewire/USB thing.  Thunderbolt blows firewire and USB 3 out of the water ... lets hope we don't get stuck with it.
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Paul Williamson

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Re: Mac computers with Thunderbolt?
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2011, 11:49:51 pm »

The "exclusivity" turned out to be a misunderstanding by a journalist. Apple has a head start, but they don't have an exclusive.

Here's a reference: http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2380954,00.asp
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Chris_Brown

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Re: Mac computers with Thunderbolt?
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2011, 01:19:36 am »

A couple weeks ago I asked the Apple rep at a Best Buy what products are available for Thunderbolt and he said "none yet". I asked an Apple Store sales assistant the same question and got the same answer. In addition, there were no adapters available yet, so running a second monitor for an extended desktop is not even possible.

Obviously, there's no advantage to a new connector/protocol is there's no hardware available, no matter how good it is.

A quick search showed this page. Hardware is coming soon.
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Frank Doorhof

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Re: Mac computers with Thunderbolt?
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2011, 11:47:02 pm »

You can use the old convertors for monitors by the way.
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DeeJay

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Re: Mac computers with Thunderbolt?
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2011, 12:39:09 am »

Hi Denis,

The Phase IQ Backs are FW800 as well. But they are certainly touting that they have USB3 for future connection.

Apple had their own agenda with Thunderbolt or Lightpeak at the time of USB 3 so obviously they are going to support that beyond USB 3. But it could be included in the future as Intel have officially given their full support to it recently just after the launch of Thunderbolt. But unless there is a widespread embrace of it, which I'm not sure there will be they won't jump on to it. They want to be pioneers of this, and tout it as their format so will push it above all and want to replace all connections with TB. Monitors, drives, all peripherals.

Above all though, Thunderbolt is really way ahead of USB3 so I don't think it will even happen officially.

Phase One could rebadge a third party USB PCIe card when a reliable cross-device one exists. Either that or commission one and develop their own. A couple have surfaced, such as Lacie, but they only work, and limitedly apparently with their own drive. Either that or dump USB 3 for TB eventually. Sadly, not great timing for them at all. Doesn't help on laptops though...and I'm sure most of the big manufacturers see the value of the higher performing TB.

The chances of adapters are possible but not as great as you might think given that TB needs to be implemented at motherboard level. TB itself needs graphics processing also for it to work and it's not even certain if you're going to be able fit a PCIe card to current Mac Pro's. OWC certainly said it won't be possible but others are saying it might be. Kinda sucks don't it?

Apple were just awarded a patent for a multi connection plug that supports USB3 and TB at the same time but for Phase One it depends if the USB3 plug has room for it. It probably will be that it does but just not run at TB speeds.

Who knows with Apple...They said they would never go BluRay and I don't think they will, but that is more to do with economics with iTunes downloads.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2011, 01:17:09 am by DeeJay »
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Mac computers with Thunderbolt?
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2011, 01:30:32 am »

there were no adapters available yet, so running a second monitor for an extended desktop is not even possible.

thunderbolt port is also a mini displayport.  I think any displayport items work just like previous macs. My external display works fine.
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DeeJay

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Re: Mac computers with Thunderbolt?
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2011, 02:43:47 am »

thunderbolt port is also a mini displayport.  I think any displayport items work just like previous macs. My external display works fine.

Yes this is definitely true. A Mini display port is physically the same as a thunderbolt port. You can then daisy chain more than one monitor from the one port. The Thunderbolt card is wired into the graphics card and the motherboard.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2011, 02:45:26 am by DeeJay »
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Yanick Dery

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Re: Mac computers with Thunderbolt?
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2011, 08:58:05 am »

I really think the market will change a lot in the next few years. TB, solid state drives... what's next to increase speed.

When can we expect TB speed wireless???  ;D

Chris_Brown

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Re: Mac computers with Thunderbolt?
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2011, 10:29:59 am »

thunderbolt port is also a mini displayport.  I think any displayport items work just like previous macs. My external display works fine.

Thanks for the clarification!
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aaanorton

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Re: Mac computers with Thunderbolt?
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2011, 01:42:31 pm »

It was my understanding that TB chains got terminated at a display. I may be wrong on this, but I think you can have multiple devices before a display, but not after.
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Mac computers with Thunderbolt?
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2011, 02:42:27 pm »

Currently there isn't a display with Thunderbolt so the termination is lack of the feature.  I don't think there is a problem allowing a display to be part of a TB daisy chain, but they must include TB in the display, so something for future displays, not current ones.  It may even be possible for a display to act as a TB hub, much like USB now.
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John.Murray

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Re: Mac computers with Thunderbolt?
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2011, 03:48:23 pm »

here's a very cool offering from blackmagic

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/ultrastudio3d/

interestingly - they also didn't include a passthrough.....
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