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Author Topic: HP Z3200 PS and B&W printing  (Read 4502 times)

kuau

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HP Z3200 PS and B&W printing
« on: March 27, 2011, 06:19:45 pm »

Hi everyone,
I just wanted to get the latest on which papers are working best for b&w printing on the Z3200 PS printer.
Best DMax and good tonality.
I am currently trying both canson bartya photographique and there Platine Fibre Rag papers.

Any others I should add to my list?

Quick work flow question.
I use silver efex 2 for all my b&w conversions, then before printing do some output usm and flatten the image.
Would I benifit to then convert to grey scale or just leave it in rgb mode which I work in pro photo rgb.

Thanks

Steven
PS. I can't believe you can buy a new HP z3200 44" PS for under 2500.00 wow
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Mark D Segal

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Re: HP Z3200 PS and B&W printing
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2011, 06:25:52 pm »

I don't know about HP printers, but if you are trying Canson Baryta Photographique, Ilford Gold Fibre Silk is an extremely close alternative and a lovely paper for B&W, at least in my Epson 4900 and previous 3800. If you live in Canada you may encounter distribution issues depending on size you want and when you need it.
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felix5616

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Re: HP Z3200 PS and B&W printing
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2011, 07:10:17 am »

You should try Crane Museo Silver rag.
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kaelaria

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Re: HP Z3200 PS and B&W printing
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2011, 10:14:17 am »

I love using Ilford Gold Fibre Silk but sometimes get track marks and long term prints have shown lengthwise waves in the paper on large prints.  I usually use HP Pro Satin now.
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foxyboy

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Re: HP Z3200 PS and B&W printing
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2011, 05:28:44 pm »

Hi, I do you compare the Ilford Gold Fibre Silk  to the HP Pro Satin?
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Geoff Wittig

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Re: HP Z3200 PS and B&W printing
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2011, 11:54:37 am »

Ilford Gold Fiber Silk is a heavyweight fiber-based paper with a fairly obvious surface texture but great hand-feel and very nice image quality. Personally I don't care at all for the surface texture, but many people love it, and it provides a very dark D-max with the HP printers. The paper white is a bit warm.

HP's Pro satin is a thinner synthetic (plastic) 'paper' with a fairly unpleasant hand feel, but its surface texture is beautifully smooth and unobtrusive without looking too glossy. The paper white is a bit blue and very bright (gotta be some OBA's in there), and D-max is extremely dark. I think for black and white it's the best paper going for the HP Z printers, bar none, provided it's mounted and framed. As a loose print it feels plastic and flimsy, though it resists creasing fairly well.
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rickk

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Re: HP Z3200 PS and B&W printing
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2011, 04:52:19 pm »

I've been using HP Pro Satin in a Z3100 since I got the printer a couple of years ago, and have found it to be a great all-around compromise.
However, it appears that the 13x19 sheets have already been discontinued and only available from a few close-out suppliers.
The 24" rolls are also not as widely available as in the recent past.
Anyone know if the paper is not produced anymore or has been renamed or what?

Really too bad if it is about to disappear because it has seemed to be a perfect match for the Z3100 ink set.

Rick
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deanwork

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Re: HP Z3200 PS and B&W printing
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2011, 06:29:54 pm »

The best results I've found so far for bw on the Z is the Harmon Gloss Baryta. It reproduces the Ilford Gallerie fiber paper exactly. Like all of these, with all the inksets, there is still a slight bronzing, but far less than the Ilford Gold.

 I like the Canson Baryta also.  It may smell like fixer as the Ilford does but it is brighter and scratches far less so there is something different in the manufacture. It's bronzing is worse than the Harmon however. I spray both with a uv coating until I get the Cone over coat printer set up.
 
I've grown tired of the industrial texture of the Hahnemuhle Photorag Baryta and other textured sheets. I even find the Exhibtion Fine Art  texture difficult to look at now, after using the Harmon. That shimmering just reminds me too much of Premium Luster. 

Interesting thing about the HP Pro Satin is that although it an rc paper, you can spray it immediately with a uv coating and it has a perfect type C satin texture. The back of the print is not sealed in resin like other rc papers are and you can easily sign it with a pencil, and I assume this is why outgassing is not a problem with it. This paper is made in Germany by Sihl apparently.

I don't find it flimsy at all and is quite thick for such a price range and it has the best gamut with these inks. The oba content however has suffered in Aardenburgs tests. If you look at those tests the color and dmax is holding up very well, except in the hues that are directly effected by a loss of coolness in the paper white. That is why is coat it with the uv spray for serious projects. The hp inks have a uv filter but that doesn't help the paper base, but spraying will.

john
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Roscolo

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Re: HP Z3200 PS and B&W printing
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2011, 03:52:26 pm »

On my z3100 I found Ilford Gold Fiber Silk to be terrible and doesn't remotely "feel" like a fiber-base baryta paper if that is important to you. IGFS feels like a sheet of plastic. Complete deal breaker for one of my best customers who expected true baryta appearance and feel. Hahnemuhle Photorag Baryta 315gsm looks fantastic and they absolutely nailed the "feel" part of the equation. Have a few fine-art customers who love this paper. Too expensive in my opinion, though.

For a lot of my B&W work I've found the HP Premium ID Satin to be the best all around B&W paper as far as appearances go. Have had several pieces in juried shows, won awards, etc. all printed on HP Prem ID Satin.

That's for z3100.
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Glendagary

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Re: HP Z3200 PS and B&W printing
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2011, 07:46:37 am »

Steven,
Where did you find the HP Z3200 for 2,500?
thx, Gary
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nbmz

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Re: HP Z3200 PS and B&W printing - Link
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2011, 05:31:45 am »

You can go to atlex dot com, and search for the Z3200.

It's selling for $2650 with free freight in the US, or the postscript model for just over $3k. 

For the extra cash, it's worth getting the PS model, as it comes with gigabit ethernet, eye one display calibrator, as well as a number of tools to nail down your paper profiles. 

It's a no-brainer at this price!  (although, it looks like prices went up from last month, as they were selling for $2200/2500 respectively) 

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neil snape

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Re: HP Z3200 PS and B&W printing
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2011, 03:19:01 am »

On my z3100 I found Ilford Gold Fiber Silk to be terrible and doesn't remotely "feel" like a fiber-base baryta paper if that is important to you. IGFS feels like a sheet of plastic. Complete deal breaker for one of my best customers who expected true baryta appearance and feel. Hahnemuhle Photorag Baryta 315gsm looks fantastic and they absolutely nailed the "feel" part of the equation. Have a few fine-art customers who love this paper. Too expensive in my opinion, though.

For a lot of my B&W work I've found the HP Premium ID Satin to be the best all around B&W paper as far as appearances go. Have had several pieces in juried shows, won awards, etc. all printed on HP Prem ID Satin.

That's for z3100.

Pro Satin is nice for the surface, for gluing or mounting, and weight is nice.

It is however not that archival if you look on Mark's site.

Premium Satin is very good for both BW and colour prints. Very reliable and nice neutral blacks.

I printed my first show on Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta. The quality of the paper is where it should be. The blacks are as with many H papers greenish. The profiles are a little different than expected, hence colour matching to screen is not easy to find the right balance.
You will have some pizza wheel marks on dense BW prints on the Z3200 , which is quite annoying. You only see them in certain lighting conditions, so it may not be such a big deal.
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: HP Z3200 PS and B&W printing
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2011, 07:12:18 am »


Interesting thing about the HP Pro Satin is that although it an rc paper, you can spray it immediately with a uv coating and it has a perfect type C satin texture. The back of the print is not sealed in resin like other rc papers are and you can easily sign it with a pencil, and I assume this is why outgassing is not a problem with it. This paper is made in Germany by Sihl apparently.

I don't find it flimsy at all and is quite thick for such a price range and it has the best gamut with these inks. The oba content however has suffered in Aardenburgs tests. If you look at those tests the color and dmax is holding up very well, except in the hues that are directly effected by a loss of coolness in the paper white. That is why is coat it with the uv spray for serious projects. The hp inks have a uv filter but that doesn't help the paper base, but spraying will.

john

Testing Epson Proofing White Semimatte 256 gsm these days on the Z3200. Lighter than the HP Pro Satin but the gloss must be similar. Non-FBA paper with a high white reflectance, bit warmer than Pro satin. Back printed with a very faint grey Epson logo, hardly visible. ballpoint, feltpen writable, pencil HB + B grades possible.

I see some bronzing differences in the B&W highlights sky/clouds with gloss enhancer used. Have to be careful though as this B&W is printed in color mode with the neutrals adapted to the paper white in the profile creation. Could well be color ink I see. It is possible that I could use more ink han the HP Prof Satin media preset that I use.  While the gloss enhancer creates a tough surface on this paper I may have a haze issue with the inks like with the HP Baryta. For B&W mode I want to switch to the Z3100 and test it more from the base up without GE etc.

All in all it is promising.

met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

New: Spectral plots of +250 inkjet papers:

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
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Mark D Segal

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Re: HP Z3200 PS and B&W printing
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2011, 10:40:46 am »

On my z3100 I found Ilford Gold Fiber Silk to be terrible and doesn't remotely "feel" like a fiber-base baryta paper if that is important to you. IGFS feels like a sheet of plastic. Complete deal breaker for one of my best customers who expected true baryta appearance and feel.

What do you and your customers do with photographs - look at them or "feel" them? I thought photographs are to be looked at. Put them in a frame and what they "feel like" won't matter a tinkers-damn. The important things - at least to me - are DMax, neutrality, gamut and detail retention. On all those scores, Gold Fibre Silk is a a superb paper. Data on longevity from Wilhelm for HP printers and Aardenburg for some Epson printers give confidence those prints have good archival properties if treated correctly.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Roscolo

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Re: HP Z3200 PS and B&W printing
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2011, 05:30:29 pm »

What do you and your customers do with photographs - look at them or "feel" them? I thought photographs are to be looked at. Put them in a frame and what they "feel like" won't matter a tinkers-damn. The important things - at least to me - are DMax, neutrality, gamut and detail retention. On all those scores, Gold Fibre Silk is a a superb paper. Data on longevity from Wilhelm for HP printers and Aardenburg for some Epson printers give confidence those prints have good archival properties if treated correctly.

"for some Epson printers"...That's great if you're using an Epson. The OP was asking specifically about the z3200PS. Granted I'm using a z3100, but the Ilford Gold Fibre Silk looks terrible coming out of a z3100. Others have have also commented here about the failures of IGFS on the z3100 / z3200 in this regard.

Tactile qualities of photographic prints are pretty important to a few of my clients. One in particular, a fine art photographer who hired me to do some color printing,  is what got me started researching baryta papers for the z3100 to begin with. I told him about and tried the IGFS, but he literally laughed and called it "garbage" when he touched it. I had to agree with him. When I first pulled a sheet out of a box I was immediately disappointed with the plastic, RC feel of the paper. This client is a published and collected fine art photographer (and a darn good one), but he prints all of his B&W work on fiber-base papers in a traditional darkroom. So, before sending a portfolio of prints to one of his clients in Italy, he wanted to try to find a true baryta paper that matches the look and, yes, "feel" of his B&W fiber prints for a few of his color images he wished to include. The Ilford Gold Fiber Silk fell so short of the mark it was laughable. My box I bought for testing was a complete waste of money. The stuff feels nothing like fiber-based baryta papers. It feels like plastic. He knew there would be no exact match, but he really didn't want the color prints to feel like plastic when his gallery was going through the box of prints. He wanted his color prints to match as closely as possible the look and feel of traditional fiber baryta paper. The Hahnemule baryta paper is vastly superior, almost a perfect match in tactile quality, both looking and feeling like a true fiber baryta paper. His image also looked better on the Hahnemule baryta. Of his photos we printed on both papers, there appeared to be much more depth and details in the shadows of his photos on the Hahnemule. If the Hahnemule wasn't so expensive I'm sure more of my client's would use it.

My review of the Ilford Gold Fiber Silk stands: on my z3100, it doesn't even look as good to me as the HP Prem ID Satin. Even if the stuff didn't feel like plastic I would not recommend this paper on the z3100 when there are better options out there. YMMV, especially on another printer.

For my own work I've found my favorite paper to be HP Premium ID Satin. The tactile qualities don't matter for most of my personal work, and B&W prints on the z on HP Prem ID Satin are outstanding.

Don't knock the concerns over tactile qualities of papers. The concerns may not matter for you, but the concerns are legit. Sometimes a photo has to pass muster in a stack of prints in a folio box to even make it into the frame and onto the wall of the gallery or client.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: HP Z3200 PS and B&W printing
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2011, 05:45:23 pm »


Don't knock the concerns over tactile qualities of papers. The concerns may not matter for you, but the concerns are legit. Sometimes a photo has to pass muster in a stack of prints in a folio box to even make it into the frame and onto the wall of the gallery or client.


I wouldn't "knock" it, because this is obviously a subjective area and every one has their own preferences. So I agree, it may be important to others; however, perhaps it isn't such a bad thing to suggest a rethink now and then on what's really important. There's no harm asking why it's important for a piece of photographic paper to feel fuzzy on the back, rather than smooth. There's no harm asking why an inkjet print needs to replicate what we made during the film era with baths of liquid chemicals and light-sensitive papers. Why can't inkjet prints have their own personality, every bit as acceptable as the old stuff we were accustomed to, provided the photographic properties of the image are at least as good if not better? There's something about "moving on" in this world of print that I observe many people don't warm-up to - of course their privilege. OK, maybe as a print provider it's not your job to raise these questions with clients and cause them discomfort, but in a discussion forum we can do so - pointed but polite. :-)
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Light Seeker

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Re: HP Z3200 PS and B&W printing
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2011, 02:18:06 pm »

Folios would be another area where the feel of a print can be important. Viewing a folio is an intimate experience, and part of this involves our tactile response to handling the print.

Terry.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: HP Z3200 PS and B&W printing
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2011, 04:06:30 pm »

Folios would be another area where the feel of a print can be important. Viewing a folio is an intimate experience, and part of this involves our tactile response to handling the print.

Terry.
I've done folios with both types of paper.  The majority of customers don't care one way or the other about the tactile feeling of the paper, they just want interesting images.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: HP Z3200 PS and B&W printing
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2011, 04:13:31 pm »

Exactly. I know one renowned photographer commanding substantial prices for his prints, made on Epson Premium Luster paper.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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