Searching for the best possible digital back for still life.

[E_Edwards]

Currently we use two Aptus 65 backs and we are extremely happy with them. So much so, that every time I try to search for something better, I end up giving up and sticking to what we have.

However, I really want to find something better, and I have a few tests lined up. I would want better resolution of small areas of detail, given a similar workable lens to subject distance, without sacrificing things like depth of focus, image circle coverage, etc.

-The Aptus II 80Mp. Don't really need the large file, but if it produces the ultimate image quality, I may well go for it, as I like Leaf, and the excellent dealer service they provide here in London. Against it is the possible lack of lens coverage (image circle), as Digitar lenses may be a bit stressed to cover the increased sensor size when using view camera movements. This is just an assumption, and I may well be wrong, something that I will test thoroughly next week to see what happens.


-The Sinar 86H multishot. This camera has got a smaller sensor than the 80 MP Leaf, so lens circle coverage may not be an issue. I like the idea of multishot for these occasions when you need the extra definition. However, multishot is a hassle for daily routine shots, so I would expect the one-shot option of the Sinar to be as good as comparable one-shot cameras. Live Preview quality is also important to me, Leaf's is pretty good, Sinar, I don't have a clue how good it is. Also, I am not sure that Sinar files can be imported into Lightroom with the Auto Import via a hot folder, so I may have to use their own software, a sacrifice I would make if quality was really better.

PhaseOne and Hasselblad, don't really know whether they can compete with the above, but I'd like to hear your thoughts.

To summarise my criteria with view camera shooting:

-Substantially or noticeably better quality and detail than my current Aptus 65's given the same subject coverage

-Good lens image circle coverage with Digitar lenses (ranging from 120 to 180mm Digitars).

-Good Live Preview for critical focussing.

-Daily Usability. We go through thousands of shots. The system has to be practical and quick.

[David Grover / Capture One]

Hi E_Edwards,

You might like to pose your question at hasselbladdigitalforum.com which is a user base for Hasselblad users only, many of them using our systems for Still Life.

Perhaps they can offer you some informed information.

With regards to our system, we do offer single and multi shot capture, for the highest in resolution available on the market.

We also have a great Live Video with the ability to focus the camera remotely using the AF drive in the lenses.  This is a very powerful accurate way to control focussing on the subject.  All camera controls are operable remotely as well.

The HTS tilt and shift adapter, useable with five lenses is a great asset for Still Life work.  I have sent you a PM including a PDF with more information on the practical use of the HTS for your needs.

Best Regards,



David

[E_Edwards]

Thank you so much David, I'm reading your PDF at the moment. Although I shoot with Sinar P2's, and I'm not sure the HTS would be up to the heavy demands, all will be considered.

Edward

[David Grover / Capture One]

Thank you so much David, I'm reading your PDF at the moment. Although I shoot with Sinar P2's, and I'm not sure the HTS would be up to the heavy demands, all will be considered.

Edward

Great glad you received it!

Might be worth testing the HTS to be sure.

David

[henrikfoto]

So far I am pretty sure the Sinar 54h in 16 shot is the very best.

But what about the very new Hasselblad H4d 200ms? This is a 6 shot back and should be fantastic?

[EricWHiss]

The multishot backs - even the old ones provide very crisp fine detail and lower noise. The older 9um multishot backs that can do microstep are very impressive indeed but are slow to work with and you need very consistent lighting.  The shadows can be lifted a mile on the multishot files because of the lower noise.  That said I just tested the Aptus-ii 12 and its impressive and the sensor while bigger isn't but approx 10% bigger in width and height so may not give coverage issues .   I compared the DOF between the aptus 12 and the CFii-39MS (which I own) because it was also a concern of mine.  I just did a simple series of test where I shot a ruler at an angle with a dollar bill taped to the bottom.  I could see that there wasn't a huge difference in DOF between the two backs due to sensor sizes, but for very fine detail such as the print and fibre on the bills the multishot files held up better at the smallest aperture settings where diffraction effects are apparent.

[Doug Peterson]

So far I am pretty sure the Sinar 54h in 16 shot is the very best.

But what about the very new Hasselblad H4d 200ms? This is a 6 shot back and should be fantastic?

Is that shipping or public demos yet? (I'm asking earnestly - I haven't heard a shipping announcement but I could have easily missed it)

David?

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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[henrikfoto]

Is that shipping or public demos yet? (I'm asking earnestly - I haven't heard a shipping announcement but I could have easily missed it)

David?

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

As far as I know they are not yet shipping.

Henrik

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
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Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off

[donaldt]

if you are shooting with the same lens, same aperture, and same distance
different sensor size wont offer you different DOF

what you should do is use a 100mm lens (with 1.1x crop) and 110mm lens(with 1.0x crop), same aperture and same distance

The multishot backs - even the old ones provide very crisp fine detail and lower noise. The older 9um multishot backs that can do microstep are very impressive indeed but are slow to work with and you need very consistent lighting.  The shadows can be lifted a mile on the multishot files because of the lower noise.  That said I just tested the Aptus-ii 12 and its impressive and the sensor while bigger isn't but approx 10% bigger in width and height so may not give coverage issues .   I compared the DOF between the aptus 12 and the CFii-39MS (which I own) because it was also a concern of mine.  I just did a simple series of test where I shot a ruler at an angle with a dollar bill taped to the bottom.  I could see that there wasn't a huge difference in DOF between the two backs due to sensor sizes, but for very fine detail such as the print and fibre on the bills the multishot files held up better at the smallest aperture settings where diffraction effects are apparent.

[EricWHiss]

if you are shooting with the same lens, same aperture, and same distance
different sensor size wont offer you different DOF

what you should do is use a 100mm lens (with 1.1x crop) and 110mm lens(with 1.0x crop), same aperture and same distance

Well there were differences in DOF with 120mm lenses on both setups, just not huge. My understanding is the magnification effects DOF and that's related to sensor size.  Lot of factors involved with DOF, including print size, and assumptions about the viewers eyesight and viewing distance.     I was wondering if both sensor size differences and the sensor pitch differences would affect the DOF.   

[yaya]

Eddie after testing and comparing the Aptus-II 12 to all available MS and scanning type products, and knowing the standard of work you produce and your workflow, I think that you are going to have a rather easy choice here.

Bare in mind that with the SensorFlex technology you can shoot square or 4:3 crops at 60MP for that extra DOF. Live View (in colour or B&W) will show you the exact actual frame so you don't have to do any guessing

On a decent tower you get a fully rendered 80MP image zoomed in at 100% in 6-7 seconds and process it in another 15-20 then move on to the next shot. That's about 3-5 times quicker than MS and the RAW file is still a third (!) of the size and still produces a larger output size...oh and the service costs on shutters and bulbs goes up 4-6 times (or more) if you chose MS

You can stay with your LR workflow or look into Capture One with it's added functionality and improved IQ

[E_Edwards]

Hi Yair,

There are many things that attract me about the Aptus 80MP for my type of work. But I have some reservations that will be confirmed or denied when I test it.

Lens coverage is something very important to me because I use movements in the view camera to squeeze every inch of area in focus possible. The old Scheimpflug principle is practised with unremitting fervour, bless the distinguished inventor of such complex theory!

Will I be able to use similar tilts and shifts as currently? Will the frame be as even as it is now? Will there be some fall-off? Soon I'll know the answer.

Using a larger sensor necessitates shooting with longer focal lenses, so things that I currently shoot with, say, a 120mm Digitar lens, I will have to shoot with maybe the 180mm lens. This has some implications as to the depth of field, lens to subject distance and so on, and I will have to find a working compromise that I can live with. But I am completely open minded, so much so that I will also test other systems regardless of my own prejudices or preferences, or regardless of the rumours or experiences that abound in the trade which I am aware of.

Having gone from an Imacon 4040 Multishot (and I used to shoot everything with four pops) to the single shot Aptus 65 was a liberating experience, and I can honestly say that these are the camera backs that I have had the most owner satisfaction ever, they are still going strong, they are still earning their money, they've never fail me after thousands of shots, so Leaf is a company I can trust.

The HTS that David has kindly suggested...I feel this is the equivalent to some front movement in a view camera. Although this may be perfectly fine for some photography, I'm old school, I've lived with front and rear movements all my working life, so I feel I couldn't possibly work without rear movements, I think it would simply be too restrictive for my kind of work.

However, it's now time to review all the up to the minute options from every brand and either upgrade or continue what what I have.

Edward

[E_Edwards]

To those who mention the 16 shot mode...thank you, but this is not practical with my workflow. I have the solid floors, the heavy studio camera stands, the consistent Broncolor lights, etc.  but 16 shots (and I have done them myself, so I know the implications) are not feasible in my usual working environment. And I am hesitant that the quality was that much better or even equal to what can be obtained with one of the modern single shot backs available. The mere vibration of a passing lorry in the street would disturb the flow, having to start all over again.

Edward

[EricWHiss]

You should definitely test the Leaf Aptus-ii 12 then.  I really liked it.  It's close enough to what the 16 shot backs can do in a single shot. Having shot both recently, I think the MS files are cleaner in the shadows and might still have some advantages in crispness and color tonality, but its very very close.  You could argue which is better, but there's no question of the convenience of being able to get the shot in a single frame.

[donaldt]

if you want to get different DOF on the different sensor size, but same lens and aperture
you must frame the two images in different distance, the 1.1x crop sensor at very slightly longer distance
so that the the difference pictures will in fact be framed the same (but actual distance is different)

you will not just get more shallow DOF on larger sensor with the same exact setting
if you get different DOF in the same exact setting you must try again

Well there were differences in DOF with 120mm lenses on both setups, just not huge. My understanding is the magnification effects DOF and that's related to sensor size.  Lot of factors involved with DOF, including print size, and assumptions about the viewers eyesight and viewing distance.     I was wondering if both sensor size differences and the sensor pitch differences would affect the DOF.   

[donaldt]

You should definitely test the Leaf Aptus-ii 12 then.  I really liked it.  It's close enough to what the 16 shot backs can do in a single shot. Having shot both recently, I think the MS files are cleaner in the shadows and might still have some advantages in crispness and color tonality, but its very very close.  You could argue which is better, but there's no question of the convenience of being able to get the shot in a single frame.

I also had a chance to try the Leaf 12 R
amazing back, I think as the MP is going higher, the meaning of MS backs diminishes

[Myko]

I too have the Aptus 65, and also a scanning back by Better Light.  When I'm working with something that requires movements or better DOF control I go to the scan back.  I don't know about you, but I miss the optical functionality that I used to get working 4x5 and 8x10.  I know 8x10 is likely dead for good, but the scan back is the closest thing out there to actually working in true large format.  Since you have the heavy floors and gear I'd suggest trying a scan back.

A new Q:  How does everyone feel about being forced to work still life with the constraints of medium format chip sizes?

[fredjeang]

A new Q:  How does everyone feel about being forced to work still life with the constraints of medium format chip sizes?

With the prices of those new 80MP backs, I just do not imagine if they would decide to go for standart large format chip size...I guess it would be like buying a house in Spain: an all life mortgage.
Canon has already a bigger sensor like that but not commercialized. http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/31/canon-develops-worlds-largest-cmos-sensor-shoots-60fps-video-i/

[E_Edwards]

Myko,

I tried a scanning back quite a while ago.

Things may have changed since then, but at the time I found that you needed a hell of a lot of soft light in order to make it work. Less light meant less of a scanning area. The scanning backs work, but subtle light control was practically impossible on small size set-ups like the ones I am used to. Also, I remember it took a long time to scan the area. All in all, I didn't get on with it, I didn't find it practical for a busy studio. It may work for others though. My impression was: good for copy work if you are not in a hurry.

Edward

[E_Edwards]

Hi Fred,

I used to shoot 10x8 for a number of years, then 5x4 for almost two decades. So it was strange at first to focus on a small sensor area. However, you get used to it, and with Live view, I find the accuracy of the focussing quite a bonus.

I'm no longer nostalgic for a large format focussing screen area or hanker for the good old days. The good old days are now, at present. It's never been better really. But because clients expect a fast turnaround these days, practicality is one of my main priorities. Since photography fees are now lower than they used to be, and budgets are smaller, I limit the time spent per shot, as I stubbornly refuse to lower my profits. It's a question of delivering good quality quickly enough and with no hassle...without having to mortgage your house in the process!