Topic: Profoto or ? (Read 7388 times)

douvidl · « **on:** March 14, 2011, 12:47:55 pm »

Per Caponigro the march Photoshop user, I have set my wking color space in CS5 and LR to prophoto. My camera, 5d2, is set to RGB, (no prophoto option). I've set my monitor display, iMac duo core, to a calibrated (i7 xrite) monitor profile. Lastly my printer is an Epson 3880. My prints still are darker than the monitor. Are my setting correct or have I missed something?. Should the monitor profile also be set to prophoto?
Thanks for your help, i hope.
David Mendelow

digitaldog · « **Reply #1 on:** March 14, 2011, 12:51:38 pm »

The setting on the camera only affects the JPEGs (not raw) and the (wrong) histogram and clipping you see if you shoot raw.

Prints too dark:http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/why_are_my_prints_too_dark.shtml

Luca Ragogna · « **Reply #2 on:** March 14, 2011, 04:00:01 pm »

Think of Prophoto as a working colorspace only. In order to view colors accurately, you have to have a profile for your monitor that can translate the colors of the working colorspace into something that your monitor can produce. If you set the monitor profile to Prophoto there's no translation. Your computer can't anticipate how the colors will change from the working space to your monitor.

douvidl · « **Reply #3 on:** March 14, 2011, 04:23:06 pm »

Well, I've set the calibration to the Profoto icc and then ran a profile. I've used that profile sucessfully, thankfully. THe prints are glorious.
Does that contradict what you've posted?
David

Wayne Fox · « **Reply #4 on:** March 14, 2011, 06:21:24 pm »

Quote from: douvidl on March 14, 2011, 04:23:06 pm

Well, I've set the calibration to the Profoto icc and then ran a profile. I've used that profile sucessfully, thankfully. THe prints are glorious.
Does that contradict what you've posted?
David

No clue from that what you've done but sounds strange. Basic workflow steps very straightforward, but make sure you've set them up right and not just found something that worked (like many out there) ... or some day you'll be sorry.

Camera .... capture images in RAW. All other settings in the camera are only for the in camera jpeg, and used by Adobe Camera Raw and Lightroom to do initial conversion but can be overridden so not permanent.

Convert the images in Adobe Camera RAW, and open them into CS5 as 16bit ProPhotoRGB images. (Lightroom does this all behind the scenes.) As mentioned make sure your CS5 working space is ProPhotoRGB.

Be sure you have a quality profile for your display and be sure the display is set up to use that profile. (never use a working space for a display).

When ready to output, let Photoshop (or Lightroom) manage the colors, and select the correct printer/paper profile so CS5/LR can convert the image data into the appropriate output space. For web jpeg you must convert to the lowest common denominator (which is Internet Explorer) so sRGB.

If this produces unacceptable results, the answer is from other circumstances, such as your viewing station lighting, the brightness of your display, and sometimes even the white point of your display (which often cannot be set to 6500k when trying to get a decent match to the print- it depends on your your viewing station).

Last thing I tell those in my class is don't make the mistake of holding the print up next to the display and wonder why they don't match ... they never will. Two different beasts. In fact, I recommend you set your viewing station up so you cannot see the display and print at the same time ... the simple step of looking away allows adaptation. The goal isn't to get a perfect match, the real goal is to have your monitor be a reliable predictor of what your image will look like when printed.

douvidl · « **Reply #5 on:** March 15, 2011, 11:39:11 am »

Wayne;
Given my iMac, the following seems to work for me. When I launch the xRite thing, it asked for a target. I select the profoto icc and run the xRite program. The resultant calibration is the one I use for the iMac. I've tried the same with Adobe RGB and sRGB. The results are similar except RGB produces a slightly darker image than the other three. I use profoto because of it's large gamut. Profoto is also the working space in CS5 and LR.
Am I doing something wrong?
David

RHPS · « **Reply #6 on:** March 16, 2011, 06:24:20 am »

When you say "the xRite thing" I assume you mean i1Match. If that is the case then the target settings are intended to allow you to match the appearance of another display, not a working space like ProPhoto. Choosing ProPhoto will prevent you from choosing the white point and, more importantly, the luminance. Choosing ProPhoto does not increase the color gamut of your display.

I think you should re-profile using 6500K white point, gamma 2.2 and liminance 120, at least as a starting point.

douvidl · « **Reply #7 on:** March 16, 2011, 11:00:25 am »

RHPS;
Thanks for the response. One of us is wrong. I did a calibration with the same values you suggested. I also did a calibration with the Profoto, RGB and sRGB target. The best by far with the Profoto. My prints using the Profoto icc. calibration are breathtaking, not so at all with the calibration with the values you suggested. The iMac doesn't allow for a change in contrast nor luminance, at least I haven't found a way to do. But try my method for yourself on an iMac. I would love to hear the results.
David

Wayne Fox · « **Reply #8 on:** March 16, 2011, 02:52:40 pm »

Quote from: douvidl on March 16, 2011, 11:00:25 am

RHPS;
Thanks for the response. One of us is wrong. I did a calibration with the same values you suggested. I also did a calibration with the Profoto, RGB and sRGB target. The best by far with the Profoto. My prints using the Profoto icc. calibration are breathtaking, not so at all with the calibration with the values you suggested. The iMac doesn't allow for a change in contrast nor luminance, at least I haven't found a way to do. But try my method for yourself on an iMac. I would love to hear the results.
David

When you select a profile in the i1 match software, all it is doing is reading that profiles target values. If you are selecting ProPhoto, then I'm guessing it is setting those values to "native", since I don't believe ProPhoto has a readable wp/luminance/gamma setting. Native works fine for some displays, but not so good for others.

This doesn't mean you won't get a good profile, and perhaps match, but isn't always ideal. Normally you are much better off taking control of this process yourself, setting your own white point so your display matches your printers output. Even between devices there can be problems ... if I use a spyder 3 to make a profile it will be significantly warmer than if I use my eye-one. I have to set the spyder 3 to 6500k, whereas I have to set the i1 to 6100k to get a display to print match.

As far as luminance, yes your iMac can control it - it's simply turning down the brightness. (There are some older iMacs which cannot be dimmed enough).The i1match software will allow you to set a target, then you will be given a step where you can adjust the brightness while it offers feedback as to how bright it is. One trick on the Mac, to adjust the brightness in finer sets, rather than just pressing the F1/F2 keys, you can hold down the option and shift keys and the brightness will adjust in much finer increment. On most displays, the ideal luminance setting is going to be around 50-60% brightness. What is ideal? Whatever matches your viewing station, which should be a consistently lit color controlled area. Then adjust the brightness of the display so a white photoshop document appears about the same as a blank piece of paper in the viewing station. Bottom line, if your prints are too dark, your display is too bright.

douvidl · « **Reply #9 on:** March 16, 2011, 07:38:48 pm »

RHPS;
We are having a Talmudic debate. THe only way through this is for you to duplicate my prophoto calibration on an iMac and for you to compare it to one set with your values. I've done so, and the results are what I've reported in the preceding post. My monitor is as low a brightness as the machine will go. Bottom line an iMac monitor calibrated to a Profoto icc is the way to go, for me... Try it, you'll like it.
David

Czornyj · « **Reply #10 on:** March 17, 2011, 03:14:42 am »

Quote from: Wayne Fox on March 16, 2011, 02:52:40 pm

I'm guessing it is setting those values to "native", since I don't believe ProPhoto has a readable wp/luminance/gamma setting.

ProPhoto color space has D50 wtpt, and gamma 1.8 TRC, so these values are taken as calibration targets when the profile is selected in i1match.

RHPS · « **Reply #11 on:** March 17, 2011, 05:45:55 am »

Czornyj My version of i1Match (Windows) sets the white point and gamma to native, and the luminance to "No change" if I select ProPhoto. Maybe it's different on a Mac - I've never even thought to try it!

David I don't have an iMac, although I have profiled plenty of them for other people. As Wayne says, you may well get a good profile using native settngs, but I would never throw away the ability to select white point, gamma and luminance to achieve the best monitor/print match for the individual set-up. And, if i1Match behaves the same on the Windows and Mac platforms you are using native settings - ProPhoto doesn't come into it.

Finally, your comment about the prints looking gorgeous with this monitor profile puzzles me a bit. The monitor profile only affects the prints if it makes you edit the image differently. Do you use a standard test image when you are trying to get your monitor and print to match , or one of your own images?

douvidl · « **Reply #12 on:** March 17, 2011, 09:49:54 am »

I am using my own images, after I ran a series of test images. The fellow who teaches at a local photo institute even commented on my printing skills after I review these images with him. According to Czornyj ProPhoto does have a particular set of values. For what its worth my iMac values are D5, temp 5004, Illu 7175. If A. Rodney is about, perhaps he would chime in.

Czornyj · « **Reply #13 on:** March 17, 2011, 10:25:06 am »

Quote from: RHPS on March 17, 2011, 05:45:55 am

Czornyj My version of i1Match (Windows) sets the white point and gamma to native, and the luminance to "No change" if I select ProPhoto. Maybe it's different on a Mac - I've never even thought to try it!

Please excuse me - i1match reads only calibration target from profiles created by itself - it doesn't read standard ICC tag content, so it's only profiling the display when the ProPhoto profile is opened for target settings.

douvidl · « **Reply #14 on:** March 17, 2011, 11:43:02 am »

Well, whatever. I've not been able to generate prints of this quality without using the profiles/methods/values I described earlier. Good scientific method suggests someone else should check out my work on the same machine, same profiles. Then we shall see what works and what doesn't. Perhaps I have a good golem in my machine.
David

Mark Paulson · « **Reply #15 on:** March 18, 2011, 11:36:35 am »

It is very obvious that you are not willing to listen to people who have considerably more experience than you. Your lack of understanding comes across crystal clear when you insist on using a color space as a target for your monitor. I think maybe you should try what Czornyj and Wayne Fox suggest.

Tim Lookingbill · « **Reply #16 on:** March 18, 2011, 11:58:59 am »

We also don't know what his printer settings are to get such gorgeous prints.

The iMac specs David posted don't make sense. What's D5? What's illu 7175? Temp I'm assuming is 5004 Kelvin.

My iMac is calibrated with the X-rite and my specs are 6000K color temp, Luminance 106 cd/m2, Gamma 2.2 and Black point luminance .2 cd/m2.

My prints MATCH my screen. Not interested in whether my prints look gorgeous. I get them to look gorgeous on my calibrated display FIRST which translates to gorgeous prints. It's a simple equation of "if A=B and B=C, then A=C" logic. Nothing to debate.

douvidl · « **Reply #17 on:** March 19, 2011, 11:33:51 am »

Last response on this issue.
Mark, I have no idea why you are annoyed or what it is that threatens you. I have tried the recommended settings a number of times and the prints just were not acceptable, nowhere near the quality of the Profoto icc. And I have reported so in previous posts. So buzz off little man.

tlooknbill, thank for the response. I apologize for sending information that doesn't ring your bell. It was not my intention. I do not agree that the first step is whether the prints match your screen. The only step is whether the prints satisfactory meets the quality of what your screen shows. Somehow your logic is like a closed loop. I do have a suggestion. Try using the Profoto icc and see how good your prints are and/or whether they match your screen. I would really like to hear the outcome. Sincerely.
David

RHPS · « **Reply #18 on:** March 19, 2011, 12:23:52 pm »

Last resonse from me too David.

If you are happy with your prints then I'm sure we are all happy for you. But, please don't confuse newcomers to color management by insisting that you are using ProPhoto as your monitor profile. What you have done is to profile your monitor using its native whitepoint and gamma.

Tim Lookingbill · « **Reply #19 on:** March 19, 2011, 10:18:53 pm »

Well I went ahead and re-calibrated my iMac to ProPhotoRGB and I get Native settings selected automatically in i1Match. Of course my screen turns a wretched greenish yellow with a colorimeter measured reading of 5600K.

Color managed images take on this color cast and don't match my prints.

Author Topic: Profoto or ? (Read 7388 times)