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Author Topic: Skin tones  (Read 7819 times)

fredjeang

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Re: Skin tones
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2011, 10:01:34 am »

Yes, the 5d2 is a fantastic tool. I'm still surprised how Canon managed to deliver such a complete camera for 2000euros. Despite my Canon's indigestion, I can only recognize that fact. But those menus features...come on! 90% of the electronic gadgetery is useless but then, the video menu itself is a mess and too basic IMO. The 7D is probably more advanced in video but really the stills are "dirty" (over prosseded) compared to the 5D. I really don't like the 7D stills. When a camera maker will build a menu with the most relevant option directly accessible without having to play with wheels? Oh, and a user manual that does not look like Boeing 747 cockpit check, with just 10 pages?

What also surprises me is Hollywood, because why would they make the 5D2 or the 7D their battleships if there are some more powerfull 4K Raw options like Red, Arri, Thomson etc... that for this industry are cheap cameras, not as cheap as the Canon but still cheap for big structures. I really don't get the point because we know today that the standart HD are going to evolved to more res. And the raw option is not a gadget. If some indies are currently using the Red, why Hollywood is so interested in the 5D?  :o
« Last Edit: March 13, 2011, 10:14:09 am by fredjeang »
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MarkoRepse

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Re: Skin tones
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2011, 08:42:17 pm »

When it comes to stills and the 5d2, I agree. Canon has a decent system with many uses. You can shoot pretty much anything with great results. And plenty of people do just that. Despite preferring the RZ system I still keep a basic Canon set for those situations where the RZ is inappropriate. I have also spent a lot of time wondering exactly WHY I dislike the Canon for my type of work. Even the rational explanations all degenerate down to the conclusion that its just a personality thing. The bottom line is that I feel more comfortable shooting the RZ. And I think this shows in the photos.

This as well as what I've heard from others leads me to think that the simple answer to why anyone with a choice uses system A instead of B, is simply because they can.
'can' here covers A LOT of territory. technical, personal, etc.

About motion I cannot comment.
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bcooter

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Re: Skin tones
« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2011, 12:04:11 am »


What also surprises me is Hollywood, because why would they make the 5D2 or the 7D their battleships if there are some more powerfull 4K Raw options like Red, Arri, Thomson etc...

Sorry for the long response.

The thing about all professional production, still or moving everything is now  time and budget compressed.

Time eats money either on set or in post production.

Regardless of what you read in the PR pages, everyone in every genre of image creation is coming in at less money, offering more content.

Small production is the goal and the one thing the 5d2's type of cameras offer is excellent low light capabilities.  In fact in motion it is somewhat amazing how little light it takes to craft a scene with a 5d2.

The files aren't deep like the RED but the cameras work in almost any space, require small heads and supports, lenses, even dedicated lenses are cheap.

Hollywood likes the idea of smaller crews and faster production.  They pay the talent less and for episodic cable TV they can attract bigger names as long as they don't tie up their schedule for 7 months.

Stills of motion, it's all the same right now.  Everybody that writes the check wants faster turnaround, less production costs and more content because they believe the attention span of the viewer is fragmented and short.

(they're probably right).

Remember that few productions are ever projected at 4k, fewer systems even accept 4k files for coloring and editing, so right now we're talking about knocking everything down anyway.

It's the same with stills and when your talking camera costs, shooting a "low" budget film like the Kings Speech at 15 million makes the costs of a RED look cheap, multiply that by multiple cameras and your talking about rentals of $10,000 a week instead of 3 and with higher powered lights,
the costs is just goes up exponentially.  Slow the production down by weeks or a month using traditional lighting and that 15 million can easily go to 18.    3 million is a lot of money.

Now I'm not against using the best possible tools available, but we're living in a changed world and margins are tight, probably will get tighter before they go higher.

When it comes to skin tones, either in stills or motion, the ability to work with low powered leds and a few small hmi's up the production speed 4 fold, especially those leds that allow on boards kelvin changes.

What does this have to do with skin tones.  Well, the closer you are out of camera, the less time you spend in post and though I love the RED raw file, even using a RED Rocket for processing, it's still another long step in the chain.

At least the RED shoots 4 QT movies with the raw, though the downside is they lose their color settings and noise reduction.

Wanna scare a client?  Show them a out of camera RED QT movies with yellow/green faces. 

Regardless, at the write the check level it's all about money, more today than any other time.

We just finished a project where each scene was shot on white, shot on white with props, shot in room sets, in three different orientations and all shot on video.

I wanted to use my Contax for the stills, but going from flash on white to HMI and LED's on the room sets just made switching cameras something that really wasn't in the time parameters.

I did use the RED for all the motion, because I own it and it is the 600lb gorilla in the room.  Clients notice the RED and as silly as that seems, I think it's appreciated that we brought in a sledge hammer to swat a fly, but I could have shot the motion with the 5d2 also.

The RED does have 4 audio channels and that makes a big difference when compared to the dslrs.  Anyway. . .

The good thing about the RED file is in some instances I can use a few of the motion frames for stills.    In some instances that is just another added bonus and today you have to give much, much more than expected.

But to answer your main question, Hollywood does not spend money  just to spend money, because there are a lot of fingers in the pie.  Production companies, actors, actor's production companies, studios, distributors, insurance, promotion, managers the list is huge and once you split it all up, even saving $10,000 a week adds up.

But who here would not like a camera that shot the perfect color out of camera, with the perfect look, the specific style?    Time is money and saying we'll fix it in post, still or motion makes everyone shiver a little.

Since this is the medium format section, the thing that has always somewhat marginalized medium format is the focus speed, iso, lcd, computer dependency and costs.

LCD has been addressed by one company, iso is still somewhat marginal, especially when with motion we're going to  small wattage continuous lights and post production usually is ramped up with larger files and specific processors.

As I always buy as much equipment as possible, I weigh what I will spend on each project, or each year and now the only thing I'm looking at is more hmi's more led lights.   It's becoming a continuous light world and whether we like it or not we're all asked to do more.

As far as cameras, I'd probably buy an Epic today, or another RED for the second camera and backup  just because I think it's worth it, though my Canons will still be used until the paint wears off.  The only still camera that gets my attention is the chrome hasselblad and just because it's noticeable in the room.  I know that sounds silly, but it is different, expensive looking and carries a traditional high end name.

IMO

BC
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Rob C

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Re: Skin tones
« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2011, 05:48:42 am »

As I always buy as much equipment as possible, I weigh what I will spend on each project, or each year and now the only thing I'm looking at is more hmi's more led lights.   It's becoming a continuous light world and whether we like it or not we're all asked to do more.

As far as cameras, I'd probably buy an Epic today, or another RED for the second camera and backup  just because I think it's worth it, though my Canons will still be used until the paint wears off.  The only still camera that gets my attention is the chrome hasselblad and just because it's noticeable in the room.  I know that sounds silly, but it is different, expensive looking and carries a traditional high end name.

IMO

BC


Okay, if you’ll excuse the butting-in of an older generation.

Continuous light world: most of my life it was either available daylight outdoors or studio flash inside. Recent, repeated experience of using the D700 at auto ISO in available darkness inside a bar has transformed what would once have been attempted by bouncing a couple of units off walls and ceiling. It’s made photography a pleasant experience in what would once have been nightmare scenarios. And that’s just using what’s there.

On the chrome Hasselblad: if you refer to the 500 models, I’m with you on both the implied, intrinsic beauty of the things and also the respect that such stuff creates. I’ve mentioned here before that even if I was doing totally Nikon work, I’d still have a couple of ‘blads and lenses  ‘casually’ on display on a table or shelf in the studio... did no harm whatsoever. Perhaps that’s a reason why I should have bought an M too: studio jewellery.

Or, accepting we’re probably all whores anyway, would that have made me the overpainted tart?

Rob C

bcooter

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Re: Skin tones
« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2011, 11:45:27 am »

There are all these arguments over what camera is best (not just on this forum but others), though in reality we all know that Cameras are like cars.   A Ford will get you there just as well as a Ferarri and like a 5d2 the Ford will do more,  but that doesn't mean if you can afford it and want it you shouldn't enjoy a Ferarri.

Same with skin tones.  Any camera can be made to look like any camera if your proficient in post production, whether it be in the camera settings, digital processor, or photoshop.

Actually the great film look equalizer is Raw Developer by irident.

http://www.iridientdigital.com/products/rawdeveloper.html

Fred,

What goes around comes around.

Right now everyone is looking at ways of cutting costs, but usually inexpensive production shot on the cheap doesn't motivate or hold anyone's attention regardless if it's entertainment or advertising.

Also the carrier is irrelevant, whether it's paper or electronic, or the screen is 4" or 40.

It takes a lot of resource to produce good content and things are turning around.   It's not 2007 and I'm told by the people that are suppose to know that 2013 is the year it comes roaring back.

The good ones that have kept their powder dry will be around in 2013, the ones that weren't prepared or undercut every job might not.

It's more than just money, or talent it's how you run your business, do you cover yourself with insurance, do you continue with a good reputation.  Those are the elements that allow you to sustain in the long term.

It all runs in cycles.

IMO

BC
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fredjeang

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Re: Skin tones
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2011, 12:47:44 pm »

There are all these arguments over what camera is best (not just on this forum but others), though in reality we all know that Cameras are like cars.   A Ford will get you there just as well as a Ferarri and like a 5d2 the Ford will do more,  but that doesn't mean if you can afford it and want it you shouldn't enjoy a Ferarri.

Same with skin tones.  Any camera can be made to look like any camera if your proficient in post production, whether it be in the camera settings, digital processor, or photoshop.

Actually the great film look equalizer is Raw Developer by irident.

http://www.iridientdigital.com/products/rawdeveloper.html

Fred,

What goes around comes around.

Right now everyone is looking at ways of cutting costs, but usually inexpensive production shot on the cheap doesn't motivate or hold anyone's attention regardless if it's entertainment or advertising.

Also the carrier is irrelevant, whether it's paper or electronic, or the screen is 4" or 40.

It takes a lot of resource to produce good content and things are turning around.   It's not 2007 and I'm told by the people that are suppose to know that 2013 is the year it comes roaring back.

The good ones that have kept their powder dry will be around in 2013, the ones that weren't prepared or undercut every job might not.

It's more than just money, or talent it's how you run your business, do you cover yourself with insurance, do you continue with a good reputation.  Those are the elements that allow you to sustain in the long term.

It all runs in cycles.

IMO

BC
I think you're right.
Thanks for the link of rawdevelopper

I also had the same data from some very well informed people that 2013-2014 should be a come back to "reason" or the beginning of a good cycle.

Cheers.

Edit: more I think about it, more I indeed think that you are right about the 5D-7D strengh: it is the low light capabilities that has direct impact on the lightning and so budgets.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2011, 02:26:13 pm by fredjeang »
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Rob C

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Re: Skin tones
« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2011, 05:56:48 am »

Survival.

It isn't really a new development; for as long as I can remember there have been those who started out with nothing or with a lot of 'friendly' investment or even with independent wealth.

None of these categories has held a secured future. Survival depended as much on personality as it did on technique or money, and some of those that I knew personally had little eye but lots of chutzpah and were muy enchufados in the immediate business community around them. To me that's the killer quality: connection.

Rob C

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Re: Skin tones
« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2011, 11:16:17 pm »

There are all these arguments over what camera is best (not just on this forum but others), though in reality we all know that Cameras are like cars.   A Ford will get you there just as well as a Ferarri and like a 5d2 the Ford will do more,  but that doesn't mean if you can afford it and want it you shouldn't enjoy a Ferarri.

Same with skin tones.  Any camera can be made to look like any camera if your proficient in post production, whether it be in the camera settings, digital processor, or photoshop.

Actually the great film look equalizer is Raw Developer by irident.

http://www.iridientdigital.com/products/rawdeveloper.html

Fred,

What goes around comes around.

Right now everyone is looking at ways of cutting costs, but usually inexpensive production shot on the cheap doesn't motivate or hold anyone's attention regardless if it's entertainment or advertising.

Also the carrier is irrelevant, whether it's paper or electronic, or the screen is 4" or 40.

It takes a lot of resource to produce good content and things are turning around.   It's not 2007 and I'm told by the people that are suppose to know that 2013 is the year it comes roaring back.

The good ones that have kept their powder dry will be around in 2013, the ones that weren't prepared or undercut every job might not.

It's more than just money, or talent it's how you run your business, do you cover yourself with insurance, do you continue with a good reputation.  Those are the elements that allow you to sustain in the long term.

It all runs in cycles.

IMO

BC

This pontificating is making me ill... where did I put the mouth bleach
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