New guy. Want to make the jump. Pentax 645D vs H4D-31

[dudu307]

That's a bit strong.  Hasselblad's focus is on delivering a class winning camera system (which it has done) not simply larger and larger sensors but market pressure (from high net worth amateurs in the USA if some posters are to be believed) forced their hand in an unexpected way.  Phase One is a digital back manufacturer with an adequate (i.e. not very good) camera so it is natural that they would wish to place the emphasis on the one thing they can do which is to up the stakes in the megapixel race.  IMO Phase One should have spent their money developing a camera that could compete with Hasselblad and not on fancier and bigger digital backs,.  This issue was debated to the death on a number of threads when Phase One announced their new product e.g. http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=50727.0.

There is a strong argument that 39 or 50 MP are more than adequate for 99.9% of professional applications so why increase the memory and processing overhead by introducing a 60 or 80MP back?

Hi David,

Don't get me wrong, I do think Hasselblad have a great system, maybe better than Phase One, and I do think the original H3D sensor size and the "full frame" idea was a good compromise.

What I don't understand is why they broke their own system just to keep pace with Phase One.....

Regards



 

[David Watson]

Hi David,

Don't get me wrong, I do think Hasselblad have a great system, maybe better than Phase One, and I do think the original H3D sensor size and the "full frame" idea was a good compromise.

What I don't understand is why they broke their own system just to keep pace with Phase One.....

Regards



 

Quite!  I think it was something akin to panic brought on by market pressure and the need to do something to stem 4 years of losses.

[David Watson]

Further to that I can imagine them all sitting around a table in Denmark or Sweden and arguing that 39 or 50MP was fine for the real world and the digital back problem was solved.  Logical in a sense but wrong in terms of the market.  A section of the market for cars, cameras or whatever will always demand bigger, faster, more powerful or just better than next door. I guess the message back from Hasselblad's world wide sales force is that they needed a 60mp sensor to compete with P1 - God knows what they will do now that P1 has raised the stakes again.  On thing is for sure, a re-design of the 28mm and the 35-90 is probably already on the way.

[John R Smith]

There is a strong argument that 39 or 50 MP are more than adequate for 99.9% of professional applications so why increase the memory and processing overhead by introducing a 60 or 80MP back?

After using my 39MP DB for just over a year now, looking at the pictures I realise that a good 75% of the time that the digital back is outperforming my lenses, because my shooting technique (mostly handheld) is preventing the sensor from reaching its full potential. Just maybe 25% of the time I can see the resolution that it is capable of (tripod shots, pure luck when handholding). Having even more MP would be a waste of time in my case (not to mention money). And I know from direct copmparison that even my poorer shots are giving me far more resolution and smoothness of tone than I could get from B/W film at the same ISO.

John

[donaldt]

I would say I also have the problem with shooting wide open with my H3Dii-50
however the Hass was designed to be used under controlled condition, in the studio with exact lighting
and for me, the Hass is TOO professional, I am not a professional shooter and make money shooting
so for me I need something a little more user friendly, and I think the phocus is the worst factory program ever (used Canon, Nikon, Mamiya before)
I think if you have used the phocus and can live with it,
the hass is potentially the best ever digital camera every produced if picture quality is what you are after
I think you can skip the Pentax 645D, I tried it, it is lovely, it is SUPER LIGHT, but it is placed between the 135 system and MF system
if you have already a Canon system (which you should dump by the way)
you really dont need 645D
go straight to a true MF, you will see the difference

for me I went from Canon 1D3, 1Ds3, then Nikon D3, Mamiya ZD, and now Hass H3Dii-50
I think it is safe for me to to tell you that any MF system will outperform your 135 system
the only reason that I am thinking if I should part with my hass now is that it was never intended for users like me
who dont do much post-production, dont like to spend time in front of the computer
but if you are a pro, the hass is the best thing that can happen to you, it shoot superb photos, it has the best build and quality, support is excellent not sure if its best cos I never used the Phase One or Leaf

[danlandoni]

Thanks for the input! I will still be keeping the Canon system. I know that there is times that i will need it. (weddings, senior portraits). Been reading a lot more about the H4D and it seems to be suiting my needs very well. Hopefully my Hasselblad rep will send me a demo this week to get my hands on one!

[Dustbak]

With regard to the HCD lenses and the 60MP sensor. I use a H4D60 and my most used lenses are the HCD lenses (next to the HC100/2.2). I haven't even applied the crop mode so I use the full sensor with the lenses that were not meant to be used for that. I very rarely have problems in the corners (practically never) and in many cases I need to level the image just a bit making me loose some of the edges anyway. So, it is no big problem. The quality of both of these lenses is really great! The HCD zoom is actually on par with some of the Schneiders made for the Mamiya platform!

Anyway. I don't think Hasselblad had a lot to say about the sensor or its size. Personally I am quite happy with the 60 for a multitude of reasons. Does it do everything I want or need? Nope, but that is the case with nearly every tool.

[AldoMurillo]

You may also consider Phase One, the backs are better (AFAIK) and probably some of the lenses too.

I use a Hasselblad  and I can agree with you that some of the phase one Schneider lenses are really appealing, but hasselblad has the 100 f/2.2, an AMAZING lens for portraits, also has the awesome, but pricey, 35-90mm.

The only Phase one back that competes with the H4D-31 (at the same price point) its the P30+, and specs are really similar, I'm would not be able to say that one it's better than the other, just different (color, handling etc etc).   Also the P30+ with the Phase one DF and the 80mm sells at $16,990 at calumetphot.com, the H4D-31 with the 80mm  sells at $13,995.00…   that's $3,000 cheaper.

I have to say that if Dan where choosing between the Phase One iQ140 and the H4D-40 that would be a different story, right now Phase one iQ140 clearly has the edge on features (LCD, USB 3, instant review etc etc).  But the H4D camera vs Phase one DF, the H4D it's still the winner
   

Dan, on the 200mm end, MFD its not really easy to shoot with available light. Hasselblad has the 150mm f/3.5 and 210 f/4. Phase one has the 150mm 2.8, the mamiya AF ULD 210mm F4 IF.   It's harder because  1) you don't have VR or IS 2) you need a smaller f/stop to get the same DOF  3) The camera vibration it's more pronounced.

To give you an example:

- With my Nikon D700 I could easy take a portrait with the 70-200 f/2.8 VR at 200mm with f/2.8, 1/200th and ISO 200 (base ISO) and get a sharp picture (because VR etc etc) .

- With the hasselblad and the 210 f/4 the same portrait I would have a reading of f/4, 1/50th and ISO 100 making almost impossible to get a sharp picture.

Even with a 1/200th (ISO 400) or 1/400th (ISO 800) you will need perfect technique, and you will need to have a monopod or tripod ALL THE TIME to get the most of the 31 MP sensor. 

About the camera vibration, hasselblad has a mirror delay option that really helps. I'm not sure if the Phase one DF camera has that feature.

I would advice you to test both cameras first, the ergonomics are really different.

Good luck!

[AndrewMcD]

One of the better comments I've read on using MFDB in the real world.

I gave up on using my P1 because getting clean manual focus and hand-held shots were equally impossible. I can hold my Hasselblad when shooting film and get usable images at 1/60th, but not so with digital. I'm back to scanning 4x5 shot with my press camera!

I use a Hasselblad  and I can agree with you that some of the phase one Schneider lenses are really appealing, but hasselblad has the 100 f/2.2, an AMAZING lens for portraits, also has the awesome, but pricey, 35-90mm.

The only Phase one back that competes with the H4D-31 (at the same price point) its the P30+, and specs are really similar, I'm would not be able to say that one it's better than the other, just different (color, handling etc etc).   Also the P30+ with the Phase one DF and the 80mm sells at $16,990 at calumetphot.com, the H4D-31 with the 80mm  sells at $13,995.00…   that's $3,000 cheaper.

I have to say that if Dan where choosing between the Phase One iQ140 and the H4D-40 that would be a different story, right now Phase one iQ140 clearly has the edge on features (LCD, USB 3, instant review etc etc).  But the H4D camera vs Phase one DF, the H4D it's still the winner
   

Dan, on the 200mm end, MFD its not really easy to shoot with available light. Hasselblad has the 150mm f/3.5 and 210 f/4. Phase one has the 150mm 2.8, the mamiya AF ULD 210mm F4 IF.   It's harder because  1) you don't have VR or IS 2) you need a smaller f/stop to get the same DOF  3) The camera vibration it's more pronounced.

To give you an example:

- With my Nikon D700 I could easy take a portrait with the 70-200 f/2.8 VR at 200mm with f/2.8, 1/200th and ISO 200 (base ISO) and get a sharp picture (because VR etc etc) .

- With the hasselblad and the 210 f/4 the same portrait I would have a reading of f/4, 1/50th and ISO 100 making almost impossible to get a sharp picture.

Even with a 1/200th (ISO 400) or 1/400th (ISO 800) you will need perfect technique, and you will need to have a monopod or tripod ALL THE TIME to get the most of the 31 MP sensor. 

About the camera vibration, hasselblad has a mirror delay option that really helps. I'm not sure if the Phase one DF camera has that feature.

I would advice you to test both cameras first, the ergonomics are really different.

Good luck!

[feppe]

"Purchasers of the camera will have "prioritized access to a dedicated team of  U.S.-based Pentax 645D specialists to answer 645D customer service and product questions (Monday–Friday 7:30 a.m.–4:30 p.m. Mountain Time—holidays excepted)" and will be automatically enrolled in Pentax Professional Services, which offers quick access to rental lenses and accessories and high-priority repair services."

You do realize that "prioritized access to a dedicated [support] team," "quick access to rental lenses" and "high-priority repair services" means absolutely nothing. There is no commitment to a SLA, just vague marketing speak and weak promises.

[tsjanik]

You do realize that "prioritized access to a dedicated [support] team," "quick access to rental lenses" and "high-priority repair services" means absolutely nothing. There is no commitment to a SLA, just vague marketing speak and weak promises.

Not entirely true.  I have spoken to a Pentax 645D support team member.  I have his name and number and he does answer the phone if I call.  I really haven't used any of the offered services, but I do have a repair form that indicates priority service, FWIW.   

[danlandoni]

Got the H4D-31 demo kit last Friday and sent it back this Monday. The camera is an amazing tool. I used it under numerous situations and it performed just as i thought it would. It's hard to see just what a MFD can do over the web. On my 27" iMac the images looked spectacular. True Focus worked for me every time when shooting models. Phocus 2.6 also pleased me quite well. Also, i tried Phocus mobile for the iPad and iPhone and it was a cool tool to be able to use.

Here is one of the images i took (quick retouch)  



I am still open to other options. I did not try using the H4D without the true focus option which was a mistake on my part since i am considering an H2 with a Phase back. This makes me wonder IF "True Focus" Is a deal breaker or not.

I received an email from a Phase One rep that is on here and I plan on seeing if i can find a used P30 back. I am also interested in Phase Ones 645DF camera system.

Thanks for all the replies and i will keep you posted with updates on my decision!

[JV]

i am considering an H2 with a Phase back. This makes me wonder IF "True Focus" Is a deal breaker or not.

Be aware that in addition to not having True Focus you will also not be able to use the newer Hasselblad lenses (28mm, 35-90mm) and that the magnification of the viewfinder is not the same (3.1 versus 2.7 if I recall correctly).

[danlandoni]

Thanks for the tip! I don't see myself buying a 28mm or a 35-90mm. The Hasselblad viewfinder was not the greatest. For some reason my 5D II viewfinder is a little bit clearer in my opinion. Maybe even a little bit brighter 

[Professional]

Between the two bodies i will go with H4D-31 for sure, but i am happy that i went with H3DII-39 before and now i have H4D-60, and the difference between H3D and H4D is noticeable, Pentax 645D is a phenomenal camera as well, but i am more confident with digital Hasselblad over dgitial Mf Pentax or Leica, and the glass for Hasselblad is almost superior over Leica or Pentax, but i am sure many will say they can't see much difference between all digital MF systems, but if you want my pure recommendation without any deep details then i will tell you go with Hasselblad, you will never decide which one if you ask people with different MF systems, i am very happy with Hassy and i know others happy with their Phase One or Leica or something else.