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Author Topic: trying to mimic Kodak 5247 from documentation - need advice!  (Read 6376 times)

teemujin

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trying to mimic Kodak 5247 from documentation - need advice!
« on: March 03, 2011, 01:11:30 pm »

Hi

Im on a quest to try and mimic the characteristics as closely as possible of this film:

http://www.kodak.com/US/plugins/acrobat/en/motion/products/negative/ti0835.pdf

I could use some advice on what others might do to start...assuming I do not have access to the actual film anymore and wanted to get close as possible by using the curve characteristics printed in this above linked documentation.  I plan on shooting from a Canon 60D and replicating the look of this film somehow either thru in camera processing ( picture styles editor ) or post processing ( after effects / photoshop / etc ).

Does anyone have good advice on what they might do?


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teemujin

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Re: trying to mimic Kodak 5247 from documentation - need advice!
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2011, 02:27:05 pm »

ok the more I research this - the more it looks like I need a LUT for this Kodak film and that it may exist already... I would assume Kodak at least knows this info.

http://motion.kodak.com/motion/uploaded ... ensity.pdf

3D LUT:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_LUT

its a system that provides a way to transform colors from one space to another.... I think this is really what Canon Picture Styles is similar to - a way to transform colors from one space to another. Im thinking that using Canon Picture Styles Editor one could theoretically take a photo with one system ( measure lighting / use color card / etc ) and then translate that into a characteristic output for photos taken on the Canon later. If I had access to this Kodak stock = I could take a photo of a color card and then bring that into PictureStyles Editor and adjust colors to match up to that shot and I would have something very similar in nature to the original film.

or I could use the LUT in some app like After Effects or color grading apps like DaVinci resolve to match the look...

Anyone?
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teemujin

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Re: trying to mimic Kodak 5247 from documentation - need advice!
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2011, 02:38:37 pm »

aha

http://cinetal.com/products/PDF/ColourManagement.pdf

http://cinetal.com/products/cinespace.asp

exactly... stuff like this can match film color characteristics with your output format of choice. This would give you a LUT for your film and then transform whatever input source you want into that 3d lut...

I think Canon Picture Styles editor is just a consumer level editor that lets you do color space transforms like this...I think just understanding more how many points you need to transform to get a decent look is the key. You could match hundreds of points... or perhaps just 5-6 might be enough to get close enough.
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teemujin

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Re: trying to mimic Kodak 5247 from documentation - need advice!
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2011, 02:45:47 pm »

yup.

http://www.lightillusion.com/canoncurves.htm

now Im starting to see this is the way to do it.  These guys make custom curves for these cameras to get them balanced for color grading later...

why could you not just use custom curves to just simulate a particular film style or film stock?

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BernardLanguillier

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Re: trying to mimic Kodak 5247 from documentation - need advice!
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2011, 06:18:54 pm »

Have you considered DxO? Not sure if they have the particular film U are trying to emulate, but it might be worth trying.

Cheers,
Bernard

teemujin

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Re: trying to mimic Kodak 5247 from documentation - need advice!
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2011, 08:18:32 pm »

hey yes!  someone forwarded Dxo too... i think I found my exact solution tho.

There is a company that makes LUTs for their app ( Cineform ) and they even wonderfully have Kodak 5247 as a look up transform...so now I got that part going - I just have to now match the lighting and set the camera up properly and I think I can get what Im going for!

:)
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bill t.

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Re: trying to mimic Kodak 5247 from documentation - need advice!
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2011, 01:59:56 am »

You're half way there.  But you still need one important transform.  That would be for 5247 material viewed on a consumer LED LCD TV with 5,000,000:1 contrast ratio so it looks like it was shot with a 1985 VGA camera and lit with one 10K spot.  That's the new standard.
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teemujin

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Re: trying to mimic Kodak 5247 from documentation - need advice!
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2011, 02:31:37 am »


 I guess it's sounds stupid to use techniques to degrade the singal of an obviously higher resolution and newer format....? is that what you mean by your comment?

?



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bill t.

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Re: trying to mimic Kodak 5247 from documentation - need advice!
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2011, 02:59:55 am »

Sorry, I was just lamenting in sarcastic mode.   :)

The history of cinematography is strewn with the bones of excellent technical processes and meticulous photographic craftsmanship made pointless by things like dim projection and negligent focus at the 24-plex, and now by consumer hidef TV's with natively obscene contrast.

Check out a movie down at the TV store, that's the kind of image the public is seeing in their homes now.  What's on those screens is not at all what the cinematographer had in mind on the set.
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teemujin

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Re: trying to mimic Kodak 5247 from documentation - need advice!
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2011, 03:14:52 am »

ahh.. ok sorry - wasn't sure if I was offending by asking what may seem like stupid questions. :)  Im new here so I wasn't sure what types of conversations are typically entertained.

Actually my point was to recreate a look - specific to a bygone era of which the films that I actually appreciate more ( sometimes ) than the more modern and high-tec faire we are given today...  sometimes 'less is more'...  blurry prints...less contrasty lenses...abberation??! flare? I think I like those things sometimes as they somehow add to a particular style that may not have been intentional... but was none the less there.

I was looking for creative ways to go for less.  Sort of like wanting to shoot a black&white photo because I liked what Brassai did long ago.   I want to shoot in 5247.. because I grew up on those films shot with its less that perfect tones and latitude...I like the lenses they used in that time... and I want to participate in some way...with the past masters I grew up watching! ;)  I'd like to pay homage to that period.... if that makes any sense.

I understand what you mean by losing out on what the artist intended to see... it is sad that more people are not given the proper set up and understanding to receive the images and art as they were intended to be seen by the people who originally made them.  Just as audio is doled out on cheap headsets that destroy the original fidelity that the artist may have worked in -- I know the same thing happens in film / image world.... simple improper gamma setting and all the detail you saw - is gone to the receiver on the other end.  But maybe its this uneven process that actually gives some participation to the viewer...who knows...maybe no one ever truly sees what the artist sees?

Im just a bit nostalgic about older film and film techniques...

cheers
Tj

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Christoph C. Feldhaim

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Re: trying to mimic Kodak 5247 from documentation - need advice!
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2011, 04:17:06 am »

If you find a way to mimick Kodachrome let me know  ;)

I don't find this idea futile at all.
Even if not getting a perfect emulation, I believe in the end you could learn a lot about postprocessing.

One thing you might want to keep in mind:
The look of of analog images is not only due to the films used, but also because of the different optics.
It would be interesting to compare film images taken with a modern lens designed for digital with images taken with an old analog lens.

teemujin

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Re: trying to mimic Kodak 5247 from documentation - need advice!
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2011, 04:36:02 am »

:)

Funny that you mention that... because Im pairing this idea with an anamorphic lens I also have on hand ( used originally for a projector but I have it modded a bit to work with the camera )...and with a few older prime's that I have as well....they should degrade the contrast and details quite a bit more - as well as return back some of the character of those older film looks / feel.

I love the resolution and abilities of our modern optics and modern sensors... its amazing how far we've come in such a short period of time...but its also fun to remake the past a bit - and learn possibly what it was about some of those older images that actually were good and worth possibly keeping around!

Just like old tube amps for guitar players have a certain quality to them ( turns out it was 3rd harmonic distortions that we find pleasing to the ear - something we describe as warmth! )... I feel that this is a similar trait in some of the filmic look of the days gone by - too much detail and resolution can many times lose its 'warmth' and character... digital is so precise that if not handled carefully can be overly informative to the visual senses in my opinion ( as pointed out in the example of HDTVs playing back at stupidly high contrast ratio's and ruining the actual character of the art )...

To me - story telling is about imagination... and in some sense - blurry images....less detail... off seen colors...of the older films - added to this other-world character of the story's they were associated with.  Maybe it allowed me as the viewer to participate more with my imagination?  Who knows... for some reason I really like it.

:)

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sniper

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Re: trying to mimic Kodak 5247 from documentation - need advice!
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2011, 07:40:47 am »

If you find a way to mimick Kodachrome let me know  ;)

I don't find this idea futile at all.
Even if not getting a perfect emulation, I believe in the end you could learn a lot about postprocessing.

One thing you might want to keep in mind:
The look of of analog images is not only due to the films used, but also because of the different optics.
It would be interesting to compare film images taken with a modern lens designed for digital with images taken with an old analog lens.
I think Alien skin exposure has presets that mimic Kodachrome.
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Christoph C. Feldhaim

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Re: trying to mimic Kodak 5247 from documentation - need advice!
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2011, 07:51:31 am »

I think Alien skin exposure has presets that mimic Kodachrome.
Alien skin exposure has Ektachrome if I grabbed it correctly from their website, not Kodachrome.

sniper

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Re: trying to mimic Kodak 5247 from documentation - need advice!
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2011, 12:38:52 pm »

Alien skin exposure has Ektachrome if I grabbed it correctly from their website, not Kodachrome.
You might be right I haven't used it for years, I remember it having some kodak presets.
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