Topic: 5x4, 6x7 , 645 FILM and scanning (Read 20192 times)

sanzari · « **on:** February 27, 2011, 02:52:54 pm »

Living in the UK we make it even more difficult than most of the rest of the world to get most things done. I know that is sweeping as a statement, however spending hours on the internet to find a product or service that used to exist is all too common these days. Often when you find one it's in the US. I guess its simple economics of supply and demand but enough of my beef.

My question - If I still wanted to use film, develop it myself and then get it scanned I have a few questions -

1. Is there a service that scans still at sensible rates and what film types do they do ?? - sepia, b&W , colour
2. Whilst film is becoming more rare, how doe s PENTAX 6x7 or Fuji 68 film scan in ?? Quality vs effort
3. The new Media backs are clearly there with IQ180 etc but at $44k its beyond the realms of most, unless there is serious justification or customer base to pay the fees.

Reason I ask, if I wanted to spend some money on a film world, for travel to grab some unique styles of the past at huge quality, can I do this with film and scan - or will i just get frustrated, poor and ache for a Medium format back all too soon.

I mentioned travel as I am not interested in Studio work with larger format.

I am sure my US colleagues can answer most of the scanning and quality questions, if there is anyone in the UK that knows of a service to scan at high quality that would be great.

I am not interested in a complete darkroom set up, or a master printer - I want to get to photoshop as soon as I can. Or in particular a MAC. :-)

thanks as ever to the collective knowledge.

T

ErikKaffehr · « **Reply #1 on:** February 27, 2011, 03:35:50 pm »

Hi,

I have done some testing with my Pentax 67 using Velvia vs. my Sony Alpha 900. In my view the Sony Alpha wins.

The article does not discuss convenience. But I made something like 40 exposures on film and just two on digital. With digital there is instantaneous feedback.

http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/16-pentax67velvia-vs-sony-alpha-900

If you find a good drum scanning service, that may be different.

Charly Cramer and Joseph Holmes seem to consider P45+ - p65+ to be on par with 4x5". You may also checks this:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/back-testing.shtml

I have some links on MFDB vs. digital here: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/25-dslr-vs-mfdb-vs-film

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: sanzari on February 27, 2011, 02:52:54 pm

Living in the UK we make it even more difficult than most of the rest of the world to get most things done. I know that is sweeping as a statement, however spending hours on the internet to find a product or service that used to exist is all too common these days. Often when you find one it's in the US. I guess its simple economics of supply and demand but enough of my beef.

My question - If I still wanted to use film, develop it myself and then get it scanned I have a few questions -

1. Is there a service that scans still at sensible rates and what film types do they do ?? - sepia, b&W , colour
2. Whilst film is becoming more rare, how doe s PENTAX 6x7 or Fuji 68 film scan in ?? Quality vs effort
3. The new Media backs are clearly there with IQ180 etc but at $44k its beyond the realms of most, unless there is serious justification or customer base to pay the fees.

Reason I ask, if I wanted to spend some money on a film world, for travel to grab some unique styles of the past at huge quality, can I do this with film and scan - or will i just get frustrated, poor and ache for a Medium format back all too soon.

I mentioned travel as I am not interested in Studio work with larger format.

I am sure my US colleagues can answer most of the scanning and quality questions, if there is anyone in the UK that knows of a service to scan at high quality that would be great.

I am not interested in a complete darkroom set up, or a master printer - I want to get to photoshop as soon as I can. Or in particular a MAC. :-)

thanks as ever to the collective knowledge.

T

Dennis Carbo · « **Reply #2 on:** February 27, 2011, 04:11:43 pm »

I certainly wouldnt say film is getting "rare"

..... I get it next day from B&H , and still have it developed locally 35mm,120 and 4 x 5. Drum scanned 2 1/4 can yield fantastic results, I get fair results with my Canon 9950F (flatbed) and silverfast. Lot of effort though...a good scanner and operator can make all the difference ...but they aint cheap !

marcwilson · « **Reply #3 on:** February 28, 2011, 06:59:02 am »

Hi T,
The only way you will know is to shoot for yourself and compare the results at the print sizes you wish to go to.
If you are talking about travel I assume you are looking at a Mamiya 7 or similar for film or 35mm/mf for digital.
Each of course has its pluses and minuses ranging from instant feedback, low after costs, quick turnaround, the look and film ,veracity of film, etc , etc.
There are many places her in the UK for scanning including major labs such as metro, spectrum, colour4colour,etc or individuals providing a scanning service...check out the uk lf forum for links to those who provide scanning services.
Personally I shoot on 54 color neg and drum scan for my project work because I like the look of portra 160 for my project, want the amount of rise fall I can get with this set up on all lenses, like the ability to print as large as I want and shooting on film works for me in other ways also compared to a dslr set up.
I dont mind the wait (I actually quite like the anticipation) of film processing but of course digital is more convenient in terms of time and no scanning, etc.( I shoot all my commercial work digitally so its nice to have the difference).
If I could justify the cost of a digital set up similar to my film one (tech camera such as arca rmd etc with highest end db then I would look at shooting that way)

Each chooses his own medium.
Zhang Xiao for instance has shot his 18000km of China's coastline on film whereas others might choose a 5dII for the same project.
Shoot what you feel comfortable.
Shoot what you feel is right.
Shoot what you can afford.

Marc

terence_patrick · « **Reply #4 on:** February 28, 2011, 10:36:37 pm »

Quote

2. Whilst film is becoming more rare, how doe s PENTAX 6x7 or Fuji 68 film scan in ?? Quality vs effort

The Pentax 67 is a pretty common camera among the travel/lifestyle photographers in the editorial world. Cedric Angeles and David Nicolas are some of my favorites who uses the Pentax: http://cedricangeles.com/ and http://www.davidnicolas.com/

As I live in Los Angeles, I can't help much with finding you a local lab but I will say that if you find a local pro lab who processes MF film, they should be able to work with you in regards to scans and color correcting. As a bit of pragmatic advice, I would say you are more than fine with a machine scan from a Noritsu or Fuji Frontier as a means of digitizing your images at the time of processing. Save the drum scans, Imacon scans, home scans, etc., for your absolute best images when you are ready to make a master print. First, all those high end scanning solutions are really costly in money and in time. Second, I think the Noritsu/Fuji lab scans are quite nice for general prints up to about 11x14 when scanning MF film - just be sure your lab has the ability to customize the color/density settings to your liking. I use Richard's Photo Lab here in Los Angeles and they are amazing in terms of service, so you could probably email them with questions about the process of scanning.

sanzari · « **Reply #5 on:** March 02, 2011, 05:47:36 pm »

Guys what a lovely set of responses. Thank you so much.

I have a D3s set up and generally am happy with results. But to go larger I was hoping to see viability of film. Perhaps process B&W myself as you say quick scan for keepers and the go for broke on 1 or 2. However the immediacy of Digital really hurts everything else.

I have developed a photo tourist route into Kenya places others don't get to see, so I wanted to capture in a different way.

Good suggestions and as u say perhaps I just rent and try !!

I w thinking pentax or mamiya not sure which, but size and quality probably pentax. Space mamiya ?

Thanks T

TMARK · « **Reply #6 on:** March 02, 2011, 11:33:47 pm »

"I w thinking pentax or mamiya not sure which, but size and quality probably pentax. Space mamiya ?"

The Mamiya 7 lenses are some of the best lenses I've used for any format. The camera is light, the meter accurate, and the leaf shutters let you hand hold to absurdly low shutter speeds, like 1/4 of a second and still get acceptably sharp images. The Pentax has that huge mirror that isn't really dampened very well, which required AT LEAST 1/125, and is really very heavy.

ErikKaffehr · « **Reply #7 on:** March 03, 2011, 12:45:40 am »

Hi,

I have the Pentax 67. Lenses are 45/4, 90/2.8, 165/2.8, 300/4 (Non APO) + 1.4 extender and Fisheye.

That equipment has done me fine service. On the other hand shutter related vibrations has been an issue. I always use mirror lockup, so vibration from mirrors have not been an issue for me. Shutter related vibrations definitively a problem on Manfrotto 055 tripod with heavy head and Manfrotto Hex QR plates. Problem went away on Velbon Sherpa Pro 630 CF tripod.

The lenses I have are probably not top of the line. They seem to have issues with a lot of chromatic aberration stuff.

That said, I made magnificent images scanned from film (70x100 cm prints from scanned film, about 30x40").

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: TMARK on March 02, 2011, 11:33:47 pm

"I w thinking pentax or mamiya not sure which, but size and quality probably pentax. Space mamiya ?"

The Mamiya 7 lenses are some of the best lenses I've used for any format. The camera is light, the meter accurate, and the leaf shutters let you hand hold to absurdly low shutter speeds, like 1/4 of a second and still get acceptably sharp images. The Pentax has that huge mirror that isn't really dampened very well, which required AT LEAST 1/125, and is really very heavy.

sanzari · « **Reply #8 on:** March 03, 2011, 03:19:16 am »

Oh dear now you have me. I was resigned to pentax but shutter and clunky pushes me to mamiya. I think I read lenses do not go below f4 but leaf shutter means I get extended shutter sync with flash. ?

Can I get 200mm lenses with 7ii? I mean quality ones?

Just need to find the scanner now !! Hmm so much to consider and we thought digital was simplifyng the world.

KevinA · « **Reply #9 on:** March 03, 2011, 03:52:29 am »

I have lots of images shot on a Pentax 67 and I have scanned 100's of them. I still think the colour of film scanned beats my experience of shooting digital. My digital experience is Lodak SLR/n and Canon 1Ds mk II & III. I had my own drum scanner a Dainippon Screen1045i and a Coolscan 8000. The Coolscan was good enough for anything I needed, the drum was used for LF and Linhof 612. In all honesty I would not bother traveling with a Pentax 67, I have three of them and when I used them for work one would always be getting mended, on a couple of occasions all three were broken at the same time.
The time and effort in scanning is not worth it, neither is paying someone else worth it. I love the smoothness and depth of the colours in film, but overall you would do a better job with a Nikon D3X or if you can find the cash a couple of M9's and lenses, even better and still probably cheaper than drum scanning huge amounts of film a MFD.
I don't know how much you have used the Pentax 67, but it is not as versatile as it's bodyform suggests. If shooting at non fast shutter speeds you need to flip the mirror up prior to pressing the shutter, so no good for capturing fleeting moments and best on a sturdy tripod. Film has a "Look" neither my Canon or Kodak could really capture, but it is just a "Look" not necessarily better.
If I was traveling and shooting, film would be nowhere near my list of things to take. The problems of storage, x-ray's volume etc are so much better handled with digital. I know we did it with film and it can be done, but so is it possible to drive a nail through your cheek and some people do, but really why would you?

Kevin.

tesfoto · « **Reply #10 on:** March 03, 2011, 05:37:05 am »

Quote from: TMARK on March 02, 2011, 11:33:47 pm

"I w thinking pentax or mamiya not sure which, but size and quality probably pentax. Space mamiya ?"

The Mamiya 7 lenses are some of the best lenses I've used for any format. The camera is light, the meter accurate, and the leaf shutters let you hand hold to absurdly low shutter speeds, like 1/4 of a second and still get acceptably sharp images. The Pentax has that huge mirror that isn't really dampened very well, which required AT LEAST 1/125, and is really very heavy.

TMARK, You are absolutly right.

However I am a reflex guy, and I have a hard time using the viewfinder on the Mamiya 6 or 7, I sold mine again for this reason.

I LOVE the sound of the Pentax 67, nothing like that sound.
I LOVE how it works with the extra wodden handle.
This camera has real mojo.
I tend to shoot handheld, wide open and fast shutter speeds.
On a tripod I would use mirror lock up.
I go for long travels with just the 105/2.4 lens.
The camera is heavy but not like a Mamiya RZ / RB.

I have the Pentax 67II, and it seems much more realiable than the older versions, and the lightmeeter is spot on.

Shooting negative film and wide open gives me a look that is very hard to reproduce with digital.

Cheers

TES

sanzari · « **Reply #11 on:** March 03, 2011, 07:14:02 am »

Ow no guys, I am getting what i asked for answers and passion.

Are you saying that the Mamiya is more reliable, but the PENTAX gives a better look ? or more unique rather ?

I was planning on cheap scanning the images that i process myself, and then DRUM scanning only the best ones.

I have looked at the D3X, and yes for most applications I am sure good enough, for large scale images I am still wondering if the Mamiya will give me a different look.

The PENTAX shooting complexity may be just a little too much like effort, if the mirror, etc reliability is an issue. So much confusion and thoughts.

I am not deliberating, but rather dithering publicly. I know someone will read the thread and just tell me to 'man-up' and make a decision but I love hearing the messages and thoughts as all are relevant. So yes I can make a decision on how to spend my money, in the meantime comments from TMARK, testfoto and others are gold dust. Thanks

sanzari · « **Reply #12 on:** March 03, 2011, 07:27:03 am »

terence patrick, you provide a couple of links to the photographers using pentax 67 ?? How do you know, i checked website and couple not see anything, its a trivial thing but just wanted to ask.

Thanks

T

elliot_n · « **Reply #13 on:** March 03, 2011, 01:29:37 pm »

If you're based in London the most efficient way to scan medium format film is to rent time on Imacon scanner. Various places have them (Calumet, Photofusion). £35 an hour. If you scan raw (3f) you can do about 15 scans in an hour. That's all you need if you shoot neg - even for huge prints. (If you shoot transparency, then it's worth paying the premium for drum scans.)

But in your position I'd buy a D3x.

terence_patrick · « **Reply #14 on:** March 04, 2011, 04:20:59 am »

Quote from: sanzari on March 03, 2011, 07:27:03 am

terence patrick, you provide a couple of links to the photographers using pentax 67 ?? How do you know, i checked website and couple not see anything, its a trivial thing but just wanted to ask.

Thanks

T

I've read interviews and/or articles about those photographers where they discussed the equipment they use. Cedric now shoots some 35mm DSLR in some of his work and David also brings along an RZ67 kit according to an article in PDN. Here's another travel photographer that swears by the Pentax 67: http://www.andreafazzari.com/ (interview where she mentions her gear: http://nicolehill.blogspot.com/2009/08/friday-feature-andrea-fazzari.html)

I'm an RZ67 shooter myself and have taken the beast on unlikely assignments (I shot an editorial series on Japanese car racing with it) and traveled with it. It's obviously heavier and bulkier than a DSLR, but there's something satisfying to me about shooting with it in unexpected places. With my RZ67, 1/15 is very doable and as long as my subject isn't moving, the image will be sharp. I have shot with the Pentax 67 on a couple of occasions when I rented a kit out of curiosity and feel like the mirror slap issue is entirely overblown, at least in the style of shooting that I do. I rarely ever use a tripod and don't do a whole lot of slow-shutter work. I've shot handheld around 1/15 and the images were great to me, no discernible movement but the problem for me was that it was dark enough where manual focus was slightly off.

lowep · « **Reply #15 on:** March 05, 2011, 01:47:59 pm »

film is film and digital is digital - just like sun and moon - though we should not forget about eclipses.

crappy 6x7 scan is worse then good DSLR

good 6x7 scan is better than good full frame DSLR

cost of film + developing + good used imacon scanner may be less than cost of MF digital rig (not least because sure as beans if you go digital MF you will continue to upgrade to more expensive MF gear in future but if you stick with film you will probably stick with the same camera)

digital gives fast feedback and film doesn't

digital tolerates high temperatures and airport scanners better than film

good to develop B&W film yourself but not worth effort developing color film unless you are very picky

both digital and film is also an option for example with a Contax 645 + MF film back + digital MF back...

you could also take polaroids and scan them

what is sepia film?

c_soars · « **Reply #16 on:** March 07, 2011, 11:37:59 am »

Just for some insight into medium format film scanning, here's a 100% view from a 3200 DPI 645 flatbed scan, you can see the relation to the entire frame in the upper left hand corner. The post-scan image is scaled down to 6000 X 4500, so about 27 MP in terms of absolute image size.

This is with a ~$250 Epson V500 flatbed. Portra 400(!)NC colour negative film & a beauty dish. I'm sure a finer grained film and a much better scanner could pull out more detail.

Final frame after export (note the colour difference from Pro Photo RGB to sRGB)

One day soon I'll have to print one of my MF scans, see how the ink spread affects perceived grain and sharpness.

RobertJ · « **Reply #17 on:** March 07, 2011, 12:11:28 pm »

Don't see anything c_soars...

sojournerphoto · « **Reply #18 on:** March 07, 2011, 12:44:17 pm »

As others have said, a D3x, 1Ds3, Big Sony(?) or M9 will do a very good job. But, in my experience (and only mine) a good scan from a good neg shot on a Mamiya 7 is better for big prints.

The Mamiya 7/7ii is a great camera and the lens are stupendous. The amount of detail that it can record on fine grained monchrome film (Tmax 100 or Rollei 80S) is fabulous. On colour film such as Ektar or Portra it is still very impresive. Lenses are available from 43mm to 210mm, but the 210 requires an external viewfinder and isn't focus coupled iirc, so probably best left on the shelf. The others are all outstanding (I believe the 150 is a true apo as well). Personally, I don't think the Pentax is anywhere near the Mamiya, but that's obviously a subjective opinion and I'd rather not get flamed:)

However, you need to be happy with the time or cost of procesing and scanning. I haven't found anywhere in the UK that will scan film for me at a price that I can afford and a quality that makes it worthwhile. Even dev and scan servievs tend to offer poor value and poor scans in my experience.

So if you are willing to spend the time necessary then film is a very viable option for very high quality, and has a look that is all its own. But, you must be willing to invest the time or it won't work for you.

I (now) have an M9 which gets a lot of use, but still use film when I want the look.

Where are you based?

Mike

RobertJ · « **Reply #19 on:** March 07, 2011, 01:05:52 pm »

I see the scans now...

That's pretty decent for 645, considering it's from a flatbed and 400 speed film

That gives me confidence in drum scanning some of my provia 100 4x5 sheets (haven't tried that yet).

Author Topic: 5x4, 6x7 , 645 FILM and scanning (Read 20192 times)