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Author Topic: Right amount of sharpening  (Read 7918 times)

DeeJay

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Right amount of sharpening
« on: February 24, 2011, 02:52:34 pm »

It's really difficult to know how much to sharpen and image by judgement on a monitor.

I'm just wondering what really is thought about sharpening. Do you do it when viewing the image at 100%? or 50%? or do you have a better way?

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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Right amount of sharpening
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2011, 03:05:23 pm »

Hi,

One recommendation is that you do a three step sharpening process:

1) Capture sharpening is intended to regain what has been lost at capture (AA-filter, lens softness, defocus)

2) Creative sharpening done to enhance picture

3) Sharpen for print

Capture sharpening would be done at actual pixels and should aim good sharpness and detail extraction without creating visible halos.


Sharpening for print is best done with some special tool. Lightroom is good at handling 1) and 3). Photokit sharpener does all three.

Best regards
Erik

It's really difficult to know how much to sharpen and image by judgement on a monitor.

I'm just wondering what really is thought about sharpening. Do you do it when viewing the image at 100%? or 50%? or do you have a better way?


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Erik Kaffehr
 

DeeJay

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Re: Right amount of sharpening
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2011, 05:20:36 pm »

Thanks for the info. I'm actually concerned only about output sharpening.

It's offset CMYK printing that I'm finding hard to judge for in particular, it looks so different from an inkjet. I've been told by many people tell to sharpen it more than what you think you would needbut it's not a great guide.

I'm kind of hoping for some kind of repeatable formula.


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Schewe

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Re: Right amount of sharpening
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2011, 06:31:01 pm »

I'm kind of hoping for some kind of repeatable formula.

As long as you haven't already converted into CMYK, there's an app for that :~)

PhotoKit Sharpener 2
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Right amount of sharpening
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2011, 11:09:57 pm »

Hi,

I can recommend "Real World Image Sharpening" by Bruce Fraser and Jeff Schewe. The book contains lot of information on sharpening. Photokit Sharpener implements their suggestions.

Best regards
Erik

Thanks for the info. I'm actually concerned only about output sharpening.

It's offset CMYK printing that I'm finding hard to judge for in particular, it looks so different from an inkjet. I've been told by many people tell to sharpen it more than what you think you would needbut it's not a great guide.

I'm kind of hoping for some kind of repeatable formula.



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Erik Kaffehr
 

Erick Boileau

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Re: Right amount of sharpening
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2011, 12:05:22 pm »

no sharpening at all
« Last Edit: February 26, 2011, 01:05:31 pm by erickb »
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lowep

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Re: Right amount of sharpening
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2011, 11:23:51 am »

To sharpen for offset printing I usually fix the resolution of the image I am working on at 300dpi and open the print at 100% of my final print size in Photoshop, zoom in two or three steps so that I can see more detail than will appear in print, then adjust the sharpening to what looks acceptable on my monitor without any noticable artifacts. That way I figure I get as sharp as possible without running the risk of any artifacts or other garbage I had not noticed turning up on the printed page, which would be much more of a problem than under-sharpening.

I also always insist on seeing at least a couple of page proofs before approving the final print run, and often find it necessary to make microadjustments to each image after doing this, as each printing press has its own characteristics that are hard to predict if you are not working regularly with the same software, press operater, ink etc.

Most important, I suggest you consult with the person who runs the press you plan to print on, as that is where you will get a really useful answer rather than an educated guess like this. Most printing presses are hungry for business and will go out of their way to try and make you happy enough to come back again next time.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2011, 11:27:28 am by lowep »
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ronkruger

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Re: Right amount of sharpening
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2011, 01:00:39 pm »

I like Lowep's post best so far.
I believe the best sharpening method begins at time of capture. Before any sharpening is done, I blow my images up to at least 100 percent, and if they don't hold up, I trash them. While the saying, "garbabe in-garbage out" is an exaggeration, there is some truth to it.
Like with other aspects of PP, the less you do the better, because any adjustment you make in PP doesn't just change the target aspect, but many other aspects throught the spectrum. Introduction of artifacts is the most common problem with sharpening. One of the most common reasons for rejection with stock agencies is "oversharpening," and it doesn't take much to bring that verdict. They have good reasons for such strigent requirements, but they, too, are based upon output IQ.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Right amount of sharpening
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2011, 04:13:47 pm »

Hi,

There are a lot of good reasons to sharpen:

1) Loss of MTF in sampling

2) Diffusion in printing

So you would restore what was lost in imaging and sampling and precompensate for what will be lost in the printing process.

You can ignore sharpening in your process, but you will not achieve optimal results.

Best regards
Erik
no sharpening at all
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Erick Boileau

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Re: Right amount of sharpening
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2011, 04:59:37 pm »

There are also many good reason not to do it, what do you want to show exactly ?

Hi,

There are a lot of good reasons to sharpen:

1) Loss of MTF in sampling

2) Diffusion in printing

So you would restore what was lost in imaging and sampling and precompensate for what will be lost in the printing process.

You can ignore sharpening in your process, but you will not achieve optimal results.

Best regards
Erik
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Right amount of sharpening
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2011, 05:20:27 pm »

Which reasons?

The only case I can see when you would not need any sharpening is if:

- You have a perfect lens
- No AA-filter
- Exact focus
- Large enough aperture to avoid diffraction
- Look at your images on an LCD screen, so you don't have diffusion on output

Best regards
Erik


There are also many good reason not to do it, what do you want to show exactly ?

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Schewe

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Re: Right amount of sharpening
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2011, 05:24:08 pm »

no sharpening at all

Then you are leaving image quality on the table...if IQ matters to you, you need to do image sharpening.
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Erick Boileau

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Re: Right amount of sharpening
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2011, 05:58:55 pm »

Then you are leaving image quality on the table...if IQ matters to you, you need to do image sharpening.
then we don't see at all photo in the same way
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Schewe

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Re: Right amount of sharpening
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2011, 06:04:55 pm »

then we don't see at all photo in the same way

Oh, I don't doubt that at all...

For me, it's all about getting the absolute best image quality from the best images I can create...the demands on my images are both artistic and technical excellence...and in order to achieve that, there is no way I'm ever going to NOT apply the optimal amount of both noise reduction and image sharpening. It may not matter to some people but it does to me.

And, I think I have the credentials to say that...sorry, I don't know what credentials you have.
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Erick Boileau

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Re: Right amount of sharpening
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2011, 06:07:17 pm »

And, I think I have the credentials to say that...sorry, I don't know what credentials you have.
I see ... credential for you is a kind of sharpening
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Schewe

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Re: Right amount of sharpening
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2011, 06:32:18 pm »

I see ... credential for you is a kind of sharpening

No...when somebody with an anonymous screen name and no web site listed to show work says something like "I don't need sharpening", I want to know what you think you know? Because I know what I know and I know every image needs sharpening in post production. So, who are you to say you don't need sharpening? Really, I'm curious...
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Right amount of sharpening
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2011, 09:42:42 pm »

no sharpening at all

You've got to love freedom of expression!

Cheers,
Bernard

Nick Rains

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Re: Right amount of sharpening
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2011, 12:06:35 am »

You've got to love freedom of expression!

Cheers,
Bernard


Indeed!

Nothing wrong with not sharpening, if that's what you like.

But to answer a question about how much sharpening to apply with 'none' and supply no reasoning or qualifiers behind it is less than useful. As Jeff says, I'm genuinely curious about the reasons as well.
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Nick Rains
Australian Photographer Leica

Erick Boileau

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Re: Right amount of sharpening
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2011, 02:06:07 am »

I would not call this picture of Ragnar Axelsson sharp  : http://www.lecerclepolaire.com/images/agenda/rax-axel/Rax-20.jpg
or these photos : http://www.gilbert-garcin.com/

to be a good image, it should not necessarily look like plastic
« Last Edit: February 27, 2011, 03:38:02 am by erickb »
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deejjjaaaa

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Re: Right amount of sharpening
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2011, 02:15:00 am »

Which reasons?

The only case I can see when you would not need any sharpening is if:

- You have a perfect lens
- No AA-filter
- Exact focus
- Large enough aperture to avoid diffraction
- Look at your images on an LCD screen, so you don't have diffusion on output

Best regards
Erik



not exactly - may be he is into lowish light, high iso, b/w, grainy, slightly motion blurred style of images... that kind of stuff... albeit you might argue that even then the sharpening can make the "grain" better it might not be the case for him  8)
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