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Author Topic: Thunderbolt (Lightpeak) Unveiled  (Read 52045 times)

Craig Lamson

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Re: Thunderbolt (Lightpeak) Unveiled
« Reply #60 on: April 23, 2011, 09:21:59 am »

30 foot is about twice the specification.

Specs or not it works perfectly, on everything Windows I ever plugged it into. (and thats a large set of machines over the years)   I use it daily.  Often at 45 feet.

2010 MBP was a complete failure.  2011 MBP works.
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schrodingerscat

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Re: Thunderbolt (Lightpeak) Unveiled
« Reply #61 on: April 24, 2011, 05:30:37 pm »

So, the MBP is junk because of a compatibility problem with an existing USB cable setup? Seems a long way around the teapot to get to the handle. If your '$700' Windows machine was working fine, and you are a confirmed MS user, why the MBP? Not sure what the 2010/2011 reference is to, as you stated you just picked up one new computer. And if it was the 2011 i7, you stated it works, so should not be a 'paperweight'.

Still can't envision a tethered camera application for a 45' USB only cable run and have never seen a single cable that long. Active cables strung together or cables connected with powered hubs, yeah, as well as RJ45/USB networks.  As USB is an OS agnostic standard, equivalent spec'd machines would perform about the same, like the '10 and '11 MBPs.

As far as this new standard is concerned, it'll either fail or in a couple years everyone will wonder what all the fuss was about. Much like USB/firewire and the elimination of floppies(remember those?). And like now, you'll be able to get adaptors so you can continue to use your old stuff.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: Thunderbolt (Lightpeak) Unveiled
« Reply #62 on: April 25, 2011, 08:10:40 pm »

So, the MBP is junk because of a compatibility problem with an existing USB cable setup? Seems a long way around the teapot to get to the handle. If your '$700' Windows machine was working fine, and you are a confirmed MS user, why the MBP? Not sure what the 2010/2011 reference is to, as you stated you just picked up one new computer. And if it was the 2011 i7, you stated it works, so should not be a 'paperweight'.

Still can't envision a tethered camera application for a 45' USB only cable run and have never seen a single cable that long. Active cables strung together or cables connected with powered hubs, yeah, as well as RJ45/USB networks.  As USB is an OS agnostic standard, equivalent spec'd machines would perform about the same, like the '10 and '11 MBPs.

As far as this new standard is concerned, it'll either fail or in a couple years everyone will wonder what all the fuss was about. Much like USB/firewire and the elimination of floppies(remember those?). And like now, you'll be able to get adaptors so you can continue to use your old stuff.

Well yea, the 201 MPB WAS junk...TO ME since it would not work for the application  I wanted to use it for.  pretty simple.

I guess you just don't  have much in the "envison" department.  Pretty much NEED 30 to 45 feet of tethering cable to shoot the products I do in the manner i do.  You can't believe that no one wants or uses a USB tether cable that's only 5 meters long do you?

I spec'ed that the cable was active.  I originally had the 2010 i7 dual core.  The computer simply did not work for MY intended  application.  Neither did the other 2010 MBP's that were tested.  The product was fatally flawed..FOR ME...and the intended application.

The 2011 i7 quad core DID work for the application I intended.  But it too was a flawed machine.  Don't get me started on system freezes  and fan run-a ways.

Long story short.  it took FOUR different MBP's to get the two we now have that work "ok".

You ask WHY?  Why not. All I have heard for years is that Mac's just work.  Decided to find out for myself.  Found it not to be entirely true....


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John.Murray

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Re: Thunderbolt (Lightpeak) Unveiled
« Reply #63 on: April 26, 2011, 12:31:10 am »

Why belabor the issue?

1) you insist on mis-using a bus technology beyond it's stated design characteristics and attempt to justify it "because it works"

2) you then transfer the blame for this on a particular computer or computers, describing as "junk" an entire product line based on a single sample.

kinda like taking a roush motor rated at 11k rpm, plopping into a couple of different chassis - running both beyond spec, and calling the *car* that ends up with a blown motor crap......  ya know?

I've had similar needs for extended usb runs, did the homework, talked to the right people and ended up with a reliable and repeatable solution (medical imaging) that works irrespective of any platform,  I shared that with you, but I guess throwing expensive laptops and getting all frustrated and venting here is a better use of your time.

Anyway, you ended up with *something* that appears to work for you - thats good!
« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 12:44:01 am by John.Murray »
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Craig Lamson

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Re: Thunderbolt (Lightpeak) Unveiled
« Reply #64 on: April 26, 2011, 06:53:32 am »

Why belabor the issue?

1) you insist on mis-using a bus technology beyond it's stated design characteristics and attempt to justify it "because it works"

2) you then transfer the blame for this on a particular computer or computers, describing as "junk" an entire product line based on a single sample.

kinda like taking a roush motor rated at 11k rpm, plopping into a couple of different chassis - running both beyond spec, and calling the *car* that ends up with a blown motor crap......  ya know?

I've had similar needs for extended usb runs, did the homework, talked to the right people and ended up with a reliable and repeatable solution (medical imaging) that works irrespective of any platform,  I shared that with you, but I guess throwing expensive laptops and getting all frustrated and venting here is a better use of your time.

Anyway, you ended up with *something* that appears to work for you - thats good!


Why "belabor"?  Are you nuts?  I shared my problems and the solution and went on with my life.  New poster brings it up ...AGAIN.  I reply with the facts. 

The SIMPLE fact is the active USB system has and continues to work DAILY.  Since there are quite a few companies selling active USB cables ( and reviews from many happy customers) it appears that I'm NOT the only one using them with success.  It NOW works on the MBP.

Lets review.  Active USB works great on runs up to 45 (maybe longer but that the limit of my experience) feet on all the windows platforms I have used both desktops and laptops.....for years.  Active USB FAILS on 2010 MBP, ( MULTIPLE SAMPLES) rendering that series of product USELESS for MY application.  2011 MBP works perfectly with active USB for 45 foot runs.   Conclusion:  Apple mucked up the USB on the 2010 MBP.

BTW, I went to purchase the cat 5 extender system for the 2010 MBP.  Tested it in the store prior to purchase.  Failed to connect with the 1DsMKIII at 25 feet.

Now the 2011 product is not without its faults and problems as has been noted in the numerous huge threads on the Apple support forum and the countless samples that have been returned because they are defective.  Clearly my problems are not an isolated case. 

I now have 2-15" 2011 MPB's that mostly work.  One still has minor unresolved problems. 

Now my experience with the MBP product line might be unique, but the sheer amount of problems others are having suggests that's not the case.

After years of using windows we decided to give Apple a try.  The hardware is elegant and fast.  The OS is "different".  EVERYONE says Mac's just work. 

I have a vested interest in seeing the MBP's work for me. $5000.00 worth.  And now they do for the most part.  I'm starting to get comfortable with the system and I use it every day.  Just not on location as a tether machine...not yet.  Still lacking a level of trust to make that step. 

But I must say the trial and tribulations have far exceeded anything I have ever encountered.  And this from a company and platform with reputation for excellence and a premium price point. 

It's clearly NOT the experience I am  used too nor expected.  Sorry if reporting that experience bothers you.



 
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Steve Weldon

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Re: Thunderbolt (Lightpeak) Unveiled
« Reply #65 on: April 26, 2011, 09:52:13 am »

Why belabor the issue?

1) you insist on mis-using a bus technology beyond it's stated design characteristics and attempt to justify it "because it works"
Wow.. now we need to 'justify' our personal work flow.  And responding to a post is now "belaboring." 

As someone who actually owns a Roush motor.. and pushes it beyond it's limits in search of more performance, better efficiency,  and reliability.. and who has been an Extra class radio operator for decades and amateur radio has been responsible for developing and "pushing" new technologies we use every day and most don't even realize.. well.. you see I admire those who push the limits of their photography, both technically and artistically.  Without such people we wouldn't be having nearly as much fun.

Takes all types I suppose.  This is good!
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schrodingerscat

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Re: Thunderbolt (Lightpeak) Unveiled
« Reply #66 on: April 26, 2011, 02:30:45 pm »

As you had provided no details as to your working situation or subject or even what the actual problem is(or even if you were looking for a solution), I'll give it a whack.

You're photographing prototype military aircraft in a secured hanger, which forces the tethered laptop to be outside the building. Or maybe an event guy, who uses a crane to get over the heads of the herd of photogs and spectators. Or maybe it's a car comercial, and you need to be tethered in a helicopter hovering over the set. You have lousy wifi reception in your building and the laptop needs to be on the roof. Hidden cameras(nudge-nudge, wink-wink). ETc, etc, etc...

Every PC I've used has worked flawlessly right out of the box and has never needed repair, maintenance, or even a reboot. Every devise I've ever connected to them has worked seamlessly from the start, same with the firmware and software. Guess the reason people continue with Macs is due to a strong masochistic streak. One good thing about them is they retain their value, so if you unload the dogs quickly, you should recoup most of your investment.




I guess you just don't  have much in the "envison" department.  Pretty much NEED 30 to 45 feet of tethering cable to shoot the products I do in the manner i do.  You can't believe that no one wants or uses a USB tether cable that's only 5 meters long do you?

You ask WHY?  Why not. All I have heard for years is that Mac's just work.  Decided to find out for myself.  Found it not to be entirely true....



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Craig Lamson

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Re: Thunderbolt (Lightpeak) Unveiled
« Reply #67 on: April 26, 2011, 04:20:23 pm »

As you had provided no details as to your working situation or subject or even what the actual problem is(or even if you were looking for a solution), I'll give it a whack.

You're photographing prototype military aircraft in a secured hanger, which forces the tethered laptop to be outside the building. Or maybe an event guy, who uses a crane to get over the heads of the herd of photogs and spectators. Or maybe it's a car comercial, and you need to be tethered in a helicopter hovering over the set. You have lousy wifi reception in your building and the laptop needs to be on the roof. Hidden cameras(nudge-nudge, wink-wink). ETc, etc, etc...

Every PC I've used has worked flawlessly right out of the box and has never needed repair, maintenance, or even a reboot. Every devise I've ever connected to them has worked seamlessly from the start, same with the firmware and software. Guess the reason people continue with Macs is due to a strong masochistic streak. One good thing about them is they retain their value, so if you unload the dogs quickly, you should recoup most of your investment.


Your streak continues.  If you could research and read you would know exactly what type of products I shoot and how I do it.  You would have then also known the EXACT nature of the problem and the the steps I undertook to try and solve it.  

But instead you just jumped in with both feet completely ignorant of facts and then, as a stroke of genius, you suggest that wanting to work tethered at a distance of 30 to 45 feet is somehow unimaginable.

Congratulations.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 09:53:43 pm by Craig Lamson »
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Farmer

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Re: Thunderbolt (Lightpeak) Unveiled
« Reply #68 on: April 26, 2011, 07:02:38 pm »

Errr, the reason USB is length limited is due to timing issues, not just signal degradation.  An active cable deals with one part of that, but not the other.
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Phil Brown

Craig Lamson

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Re: Thunderbolt (Lightpeak) Unveiled
« Reply #69 on: April 26, 2011, 09:53:06 pm »

Errr, the reason USB is length limited is due to timing issues, not just signal degradation.  An active cable deals with one part of that, but not the other.

And yet 45 feet works like a champ transferring 1DSMKIII raw data.....at least on everything I've tried EXCEPT a 2010 MBP...you do the math.

Tomorrow I'll make sure to tell my camera and computer that the signal is too degraded for the data that makes its way down the wire to be usable.  Yea, that's the ticket.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 09:56:10 pm by Craig Lamson »
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Farmer

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Re: Thunderbolt (Lightpeak) Unveiled
« Reply #70 on: April 26, 2011, 11:09:12 pm »

Yes it's excellent that you have a solution that works for you, but you seem to be getting very upset when people explain to you that the underlying issue is that you're exceeding the specification for the technology that you're using.  Of course it's not a hard cut off, but you can't guarantee that you'll not have issues in the future if you continue to exceed the specification.

There's no need for the sarcastic responses.  Factual information is just that, factual.  You can do with it as you please, including ignoring it if that floats your boat.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: Thunderbolt (Lightpeak) Unveiled
« Reply #71 on: April 26, 2011, 11:32:25 pm »

Yes it's excellent that you have a solution that works for you, but you seem to be getting very upset when people explain to you that the underlying issue is that you're exceeding the specification for the technology that you're using.  Of course it's not a hard cut off, but you can't guarantee that you'll not have issues in the future if you continue to exceed the specification.

There's no need for the sarcastic responses.  Factual information is just that, factual.  You can do with it as you please, including ignoring it if that floats your boat.

No everyone seems to be getting upset that the mighty Mac just might not be so mighty.

Again..the FACTS. 

USB with active extension works perfectly with many different vintages and configurations of windows computers ( starting when the 1DSMKII was released] also works perfectly with numerous 5d and Rebel cameras.

USB with active extension FAILS on 2010 vintage MBP ( various samples)

USB with active extension works perfectly with 2011 vintage MBP ( various samples)

Factual information, empirically tested.

Now if you want to reach the conclusion that the problem for the 2010 vintage MBP was exceeding the USB specs, be my guest.

You now have the factual information.  Do with it as you  please including ignoring it if that floats your boat.

Oh, let me add me more kicker.  15' usb active cable, with a 6 inch mini usb for the camera..total length LESS than 5 meters...FAIL on the 2010 MBP....

I'm done.
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Steve Weldon

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Re: Thunderbolt (Lightpeak) Unveiled
« Reply #72 on: April 26, 2011, 11:54:33 pm »

No everyone seems to be getting upset that the mighty Mac just might not be so mighty.



Nail on the head..

I suppose brand loyalty has its place, but most of the time it seems almost immature.  You use the tool that works for you no matter what name is on it.. and if another tool works better, then use it.

Limitations of our different variables are something we deal with in many aspects of photography.  Not sure why it seems to upset people when we focus on just one.  But then, I love pushing the envelope.  Someday I hope it shows in my photography..  ;)
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John.Murray

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Re: Thunderbolt (Lightpeak) Unveiled
« Reply #73 on: April 27, 2011, 12:46:27 am »

I'm not upset at all about Mac vs: Windows, where did you ever get that idea?  Professionally, I design, maintain and service Active Directory based networks - specializing in Exchange, Database and Remote access via Terminal Services.  I'm an Intel Channel partner and have been an active MSDN subscriber since the program's inception (1992).  My clients range from multi-clinic Health Organizations, to a Regional Fire Authority - I embrace alternative platforms, including Mac's.

The USB bus specification specifies a maximum length -I'm sorry you disagree with it.  I've been there with "active extensions".  Unlike you, I can't use solutions that are outside sound engineering principles - I'm sorry your offended by that.  Again there are solid alternatives.....

This really has nothing to do with "pushing the artistic envelope" - I'm suprised it's being couched in those terms....

Craig: I guess what kinda blows me away is whenever I talk to *anyone* that is having connectivity issues, my first suggestion is to "replace the cable" - thats all I and several others here are doing, in any case - keep up the great work!

take care - John
« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 01:20:31 am by John.Murray »
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Farmer

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Re: Thunderbolt (Lightpeak) Unveiled
« Reply #74 on: April 27, 2011, 01:27:17 am »

Ummm, I'm the last guy who would ever be accused of being a mac-fan.  I'm a Windows guy.  That said, I'm agnostic as I work with Macs every day as well, and I've used a multitude of operating systems dating back to my first personal computer usage in 1981.

But feel free to label me :-)  Labelling John as a mac-fan is also amusing.

I've never once said that the Mac in question didn't have a problem, but I am highlighting the underlying issue.

Have a nice day.
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Steve Weldon

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Re: Thunderbolt (Lightpeak) Unveiled
« Reply #75 on: April 27, 2011, 06:23:09 am »


This really has nothing to do with "pushing the artistic envelope" - I'm suprised it's being couched in those terms....

Somehow I get the feeling this is one of those times we'd probably do a lot better talking in person.. it's hard to get 'everything' we think across in short written statements/messages.  "Lost in Translation" happens in the same language as well..

It's just been my experience that pushing the envelope is a mindset.. those who like to 'go beyond' generally do so in most parts of their lives.  If we're so concerned about living within specifications, which I'm sure is required for your profession and was required for my previous profession (for the most part), then we're not discovering or finding that which we normally would find.  Thinking outside the box..  There are degrees, and exceptions, and this is only my observation.

With the topic at hand..  It seems obvious that 'despite' working outside specs, there is something with the two MBP's (previous generation) Craig had that wasn't the case with his PC machines or his new MBP's (new generation).  Or any of the machines I use.. I also tether, but with 30 foot lengths.. I get mine at www.pccables.com and have for years.  At PCcables (or any number of other places) you can get active kits up to 60 feet or more long.  Heck, they even have a 150ft super booster. (curious if it works)  That these products are marketed shows there is a demand.. or in other words people are using these lengths often enough to warrant the packaging vs. buying separate cables and putting them together.  So in my mind, regardless of the specification, if it's possible to tether at 30-45-60 feet with one type of computer and not another, then I find this information valuable and useful for my needs.

Now.. if someone limits their tethering to 15 feet, and by doing this they limit their work flow possibilities, just because they opened the book and the book says the standard is rated to only 15 feet.. then this is their right.  But if they could have benefited from tethering at 15-60 feet, then it's their loss.  And if they had to compromise their photography because of this choice, then that's a loss too.  This is where my mindset comment comes in.  The person limiting themselves to 15 feet, and possibly limiting their photography because of it, "generally" makes this type of decision in most aspects of their work/life.

In my mind, the MBP is just one variable in the string of variables necessary to tether at 15-30 feet.  If the MBP doesn't work, and every other PC/Mac tried does, then the odds are there is something 'different' about that machine which doesn't exist in the others.  It might work "within spec", but if I tether then I want to know if it works significantly different enough from the average laptop to be at issue.  In this respect its irrelevant if the workflow requires an out of spec component.  and to me when someone says "well, you're working out of spec so what gives you the right to tell us about it?", then those who could use this information suffer for it.

Seriously, you don't find it interesting and valuable that a certain type of equipment won't work when most other types will?  I do, and on some level perhaps many others do.  So I ask myself what motivation someone would have to take this position, or chastise someone for sharing it, and without reaching too far.. I think of the Mac vs. PC rivalry.  Just a guess, and I could be wrong.. but it's common enough of a mindset to not be reaching imo..
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Farmer

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Re: Thunderbolt (Lightpeak) Unveiled
« Reply #76 on: April 27, 2011, 07:33:02 am »

No one chastised him.  We pointed out that there was a specification limit that he was exceeding.  He chose to get upset about it.  /shrug

Trying things outside the box is great, but when it doesn't work, it's reasonable to check the boundaries of the box.  If you understand that timing is the real issue (which just manifests in length) then there's some opportunity to understand why a particular device (the mac books in this case) might not be working when other devices are.  It could be driver differences or chipset differences (that would be my guess, btw) and in knowing, for example, that it might be the chipset it could help you decide on other alternatives because not every single "pc" is going to work with this configuration.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: Thunderbolt (Lightpeak) Unveiled
« Reply #77 on: April 27, 2011, 08:50:34 am »

I'm not upset at all about Mac vs: Windows, where did you ever get that idea?  Professionally, I design, maintain and service Active Directory based networks - specializing in Exchange, Database and Remote access via Terminal Services.  I'm an Intel Channel partner and have been an active MSDN subscriber since the program's inception (1992).  My clients range from multi-clinic Health Organizations, to a Regional Fire Authority - I embrace alternative platforms, including Mac's.

The USB bus specification specifies a maximum length -I'm sorry you disagree with it.  I've been there with "active extensions".  Unlike you, I can't use solutions that are outside sound engineering principles - I'm sorry your offended by that.  Again there are solid alternatives.....

This really has nothing to do with "pushing the artistic envelope" - I'm suprised it's being couched in those terms....

Craig: I guess what kinda blows me away is whenever I talk to *anyone* that is having connectivity issues, my first suggestion is to "replace the cable" - thats all I and several others here are doing, in any case - keep up the great work!

take care - John

I don't "disagree" with the published specs. I simply pointed out, that for my uses, the active extension has worked perfectly for years,  Until I tried it on the 2010 MBP.  And I tried your suggestion, to 'change the cables' which also failed.

My conclusion was and still is that Apple broke the usb on that vintage of MBP.  Not the first time Apple screwed up USB. 

Anyways things are working as they should.  I'm still quite disappointed with the hardware problems I've encountered with the MBP's that go well beyond the camera connection.  That's another story.





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Steve Weldon

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Re: Thunderbolt (Lightpeak) Unveiled
« Reply #78 on: April 27, 2011, 11:23:54 am »

No one chastised him.  We pointed out that there was a specification limit that he was exceeding.  He chose to get upset about it.  /shrug

Trying things outside the box is great, but when it doesn't work, it's reasonable to check the boundaries of the box.  If you understand that timing is the real issue (which just manifests in length) then there's some opportunity to understand why a particular device (the mac books in this case) might not be working when other devices are.  It could be driver differences or chipset differences (that would be my guess, btw) and in knowing, for example, that it might be the chipset it could help you decide on other alternatives because not every single "pc" is going to work with this configuration.

1.  This goes back to my Lost in Translation comment.  Looking at the responses I can certainly see how someone could feel chastised and even further, get a bit more than annoyed.  Especially when you're talking about the subject in a forum which supposedly promotes such discussions.  Perhaps the responses weren't intended this way, but it goes to show in this imperfect medium of the written word.. we need to exercise care to be adequately understood.  We convey more than information, we also convey tone and attitude.  I'm sure there are those who will say pot/kettle/black.. but it doesn't change what I said.

2.  I tend to agree it's a chipset issue.  And you're right, knowing it's a chipset issue can help.  But we need to get there first, and Craig's post and his sharing of experiences is right there with the first steps. 
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John.Murray

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Re: Thunderbolt (Lightpeak) Unveiled
« Reply #79 on: April 27, 2011, 02:01:09 pm »

Steve:  It took a bit of checking, but the Macbook 2010 and 2011 use the same Intel Series 3400 USB chipset.....

I largely agree with you regarding "pushing the envelope" in an artistic way - this particular issue is purely technical however.  Honestly, dragging around a 45' cable with at least 4 flaky connectors is not my idea of enhancing my creativity - personally I'd go wireless.....

http://www.cablesunlimited.com/products/Prod_Individual3.aspx?groupcode=I4098
« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 02:30:08 pm by John.Murray »
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