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Author Topic: Skies and high dynamic range images  (Read 22141 times)

Dave (Isle of Skye)

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Re: Skies and high dynamic range images
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2011, 06:07:10 pm »

This site seems to be mostly about things one can do with computer and printing technology, with very little attention to actually taking pictures. But my approach is to get it right, or as close as possible, at time of capture.
This includes lens selection (some lenses treat skies better), use of filters (CPL and GND) and exposure manipulation. I'll expand upon these, if anyone is interested, but I doubt it.

Hi Ron,

Yes I really would like you to expand on how you "get it right.. at the time of capture". As I am always very interested in doing just that, which remininds me of what a seasoned old veteran in my camera club once said to me when I asked him how I could attain the correct exposure for any given shot, his very wise answer was then delivered back to me in a very North of England accent  -  "Tha needs ter gerrit reet in't box O' leet"  -  so to interpret for all those of you who do not understand the intracies of the Barnsley dialect  -  "You need to get it right in the box of light"  -  and that is what I have tried to do ever since.

So yes I really would like you tell me how you approach this please.

Photobloke
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: Skies and high dynamic range images
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2011, 04:47:07 am »

Interesting suggestions and educational thread. I too am a firm believer of getting things right in the field, to avoid manipulation afterwards. When shooting landscapes, skies, etc, a couple of old school graduated neutral density filters are some of the most useful accessories one can have. It takes some practice, but after a while it becomes second nature in one's "mechanical" photographic process.

The landscape is not going anywhere, so the extra minute or so of adjusting the filter and exposure are hardly a nuisance, and can save you a lot of time later on in the computer. When I shot slide film, it was a bit tricky to do all the "slide the filter up and down while pressing the depth of field preview button to locate the transition area" kind of dancing. With live view, these days, it is a lot easier.

MalcolmL

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Re: Skies and high dynamic range images
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2011, 03:03:24 pm »

Thanks
Yes getting it right at the time of the pressing of the button is crucial - the right composition, the right timing, the correct exposure. As in the days of film there is then rendring the image - in film it was processing - at the neg. stage then in the darkroom. Choice of development time, chemicals, pushing, dodging and burning. The better the negative the less manipulation required but some manipulation was usually required.
So the workflow with digital is electronic and (IMHO) is easier with greater range and flexibility but it is still important. A good digital ngative can be ruined by clumbsy PP.

With the advice gleaned from this posting I have found that major manipulation of the files in RAW (16 bit) then saving as a TIFF (8 bit) with fine tuning if required later in TIFF, holds on to almost all the data in the original file and produces lovely final prints, with minimal noise and no posterisation of highlights.
I am now leaving my camera on all its default settings -  high dynamic range set to off, colour on neutral and exposing for the average brightness in each frame. ALL the gross manipulation is then done in RAW on the PC. Clearly the better the original capture the less invasive this manipulation will be, but with good software we can make a good capture really shine.
MalcolmL

« Last Edit: March 02, 2011, 03:51:45 pm by MalcolmL »
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LKaven

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Re: Skies and high dynamic range images
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2011, 04:46:25 pm »

Stay in 16-bit mode until the very final step; you'll have every advantage that way.  Editing 8-bit files is only just possible, but never optimal unless you have nothing better.  And even then, typically you'd convert back to 16-bit mode during editing to control for accumulated arithmetic error.

Plekto

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Re: Skies and high dynamic range images
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2011, 05:45:55 pm »

Also, try this.  It's free and it does great things with bracketing and blending:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=17775.0
I find it works better than the commercial programs because it simply does one thing.  Drop the images in with little to no processing done to them and then manipulate the output.

http://www.guillermoluijk.com/article/nonoise/index_en.htm
His web site with info on how to use it.

Why you want to use this is because as the photos show, it results in very very clean and almost perfect looking HDR blending.  To the point where it not only blends the two images together, but makes the image have virtually no noise or artifacts.  What's left is amazingly easy to process in Lightroom or a similar program.  It's HDR, it's clean, and it just works.

Post #60 is a good example in that thread of what you are looking for.  The sky in the final product looks perfect.
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ronkruger

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Re: Skies and high dynamic range images
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2011, 11:06:44 am »

I said what I did about people not wanting to hear about time-of-capture because it is what I've seen on various sites and especialy here. I posted three or four long posts about it on another thread, and would like to repost them here, but I can't find it. After going to all that trouble with no responses, I mentioned there was more to it, but if there was no intrest, I'd quit posting. Someone posted that "that's probably best, because it doesn't address the OP's original question." Well, it did actually, but not in the "what button should I click on the computer to make up for not getting it right at time of capture" type of usual question. So I figured, why bother.
Nevertheless, I have a couple PMs asking for my thoughts and a few posts here expressing interest, so I don't mind sharing what I've learned about this during almost four decades, but if anyone knows the location of those other posts, it would be a lot easier to repost them here and finish it up.
Most want to shoot on auto and process on manual, but I have come to the conclusion that should be reversed, not because I don't know much about PP, but because I do. What many don't realize is that everything you do in PP doesn't just affect the target, but other things across the image spectrum. If you change, for example, the red channel, it doesn't just change red, but the hues of all the four primary colors. I learned this years ago when I was the editor of a high-quality magazine and also had to serve as the photo editor, which included color correcting chromalons made from slides. It's really pretty complicated.
Some PP is necessary, and just as during the film era, I can alway improve a shot slightly in the darkroom (PP), but my approach is to handle any shot that needs more than the most minor adjustments by fixing it with the delete button. This includes sharpness, because oversharpening causes all kinds of problems, most notably artifacts. Often, my final criteria for keeping a RAW image for processing it to blow it up to 100 percent.
In the meantime, someone asked me, in a PM I think, to further explain the cut-and-paste method I used for the picture included in a previous post. This is something, like HDR, that has to be planned ahead of time and includes two widely exposed images, one to enhance the sky and the other to expose the land. Both, or all, images are taken on a tripod with a remote or delay for mirror-up function. It only works when you don't have a tree or other complicated image running through both exposures, but a majority of scenic shots have a distant horizon that works with this method. In the case of the posted shot, it works because the rocks have even edges.
In PS, I first open the image that is exposed for the sky, select it with the "quick-select" tool and and select copy from the edit menu. Then I close that image and open the one exposed for the land. In the edit menu I click on paste, and move it into place. If both images were processed to the same size, it fits pretty well, but if there are some thin (usually lighter) spots along the edges of the two, they can be easily and quickly repaired with either the "spot-healing brush" or the "clone" tool.
Here's another shot of Elephant Rocks using the same method. Again, this is a good illustration of this method, because the sky was almost uniform grey and fairly bright, which is the toughest challenge for digital. No filters of any kind were used.
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LKaven

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Re: Skies and high dynamic range images
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2011, 02:14:32 pm »

Ron, I think your approach is one valid approach, and it seems to come from years of shooting slides in which the obvious fact is that you have (pretty much) the one chance to "get it right," and that is when you trip the shutter.

As much as I respect that (and I do), the very idea of "getting it right" is philosophically laden with assumptions about what is "right."  What you demonstrate is one aspect of "right."  But there are other senses of getting it right, including the entire range of shooting for what you know you will get at the end of the process, for whatever process you are using. 

New sensor technology has changed the operant assumptions a bit.  With the introduction of the D7000, we now have a practically ISO-less camera where the read noise is fixed and linear.  In other words, one image taken with analog gain at ISO1600, and another image taken at ISO100 and given 4 stops of digital gain, are demonstrably equivalent.

And for others, there's ETTR, which gives you the optimal signal, and this is another important sense in which one can "get it right."

Paulo Bizarro

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Re: Skies and high dynamic range images
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2011, 04:19:42 am »

Ron, thanks for the summary. The technique you describe is indeed one way of doing it. I think we have today enormous flexibility, with a combination of "old" tools (GND filters) and "new" tools (combining images in post-processing). Which ones to apply will depend on the objectives, and how many f-stops are the sky and land apart. Sometimes, filters are enough to get the "good" result with one shot. Sometimes, it requires taking two or more images, and combining them later on ,as you describe. Other times, you can manage with just one RAW file, processing it twice, and combine the images.

Personally, if I can get it in the field, I will attempt to get it.

mcbroomf

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Re: Skies and high dynamic range images
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2011, 08:05:49 am »

I said what I did about people not wanting to hear about time-of-capture because it is what I've seen on various sites and especialy here. I posted three or four long posts about it on another thread, and would like to repost them here, but I can't find it. After going to all that trouble with no responses, I mentioned there was more to it, but if there was no intrest, I'd quit posting.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=50736.msg419969#msg419969
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ronkruger

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Re: Skies and high dynamic range images
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2011, 09:57:19 am »

The first consideration for color is the equipment you use. I'm not a devoted fan of any manufacturer. I started with Contax and Zeiss lenses, shot Nikons for decades and switched to Pentax a few years ago. While most of my reasons for switching were based upon the bottom line (value for the money), one of the deciding reasons was the "Pentax look," which appeals to me.
Much of this is based upon individual tastes, and I'm not trying to imply that Pentax is better. All the top cameras are very good, and all the top lines feature in-camera adjustments you can make to boost color saturation, contrast and adjust the hue. Play around with these until you get the look you want. Even though my Pentax gives me the closest to the look I want right out of the box, I adjusted the sat. and contrast +1 to further enhance it.
Everything you do between the in-camera settings to the final adjustment of the printer effects the color, but my approach is to make the most minor adjustment along the way, building upon each, and I've found that adjusting in-camera applies a more even and holistic approach than doing it in PP. Every image is a bit different, and while I often bump contrast in PP, seldom do I change any of the color channels.
Even though I shoot RAW only, I convert to JPEG using the software that comes with the camera, so it automatically applies these setting to the JPEG, according to the Pentax idea of color. I suspect this is a good practice, regardless the make of your equipment, because the software they package with the camera is designed specifically for that model. Others may be easier to use and give you far more options, but they are designed for a broad range of makes and models.
All digital cameras are escentually computer controlled, hand-held processors in the first place, so it makes sense to me to start my control over processing within the camera and keep PP to the minimum.
Also play around with the various modes on your camera. Landscape mode, for example, is designed to enhance greens and contrast. That's the one I settled upon for landscapes, but you may like something else better in yours. Everyone should experiment with their equipment under the most controlled test possible.
Modern cameras are actually very powerful processors, with a great number of options, and all of them can be adjusted to get the look you want (or something very close) at time of capture, so get to know yours well by conducting a lot of test with various modes and adjustments
It takes quite some time to get to know a camera (or lens) to get the most from it.
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ronkruger

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Re: Skies and high dynamic range images
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2011, 10:04:15 am »

You choice in lenses is very influencial upon color. The design of the lens and the coatings cause lenses to "render" images in a certain way. Zeiss is the most consistent in the way they render colors and contrasts than any of my experience. Within the four or five most popular DSLR manufacturers, there is a wide variance in the way their lenses produce colors and contrasts. I find this true even within the Pentax line, which probably puts more emphisis into quality glass than some others. It is ture even among the Limiteds. Among my current lenses, I have two that render images as if they have built in polorizers, especially the DA 15 Limited, which produces images that remind me of Kodachrome 64, and occasionally even Kodachrome 25.
Lenses designed specifically for landscapes (usually wider) generally are better. One of the first things I do when getting a new lens is run it through a series of test to determine the sweet spot. Generally, the wider the lens the higher the sweet spot and DOF for comparable f-stops, which means you can get more depth and detail into them.
My point is, to increase the richness of colors at the time of capture, examine the line of lenses compatable with your system. Look at a broad range of images produced by them, and you'll start to see patterns of color and contrast.
It took me a long time to realize the importance of glass, and my advice now is to spend more on a lens than on a body. The body gets you there, but it is the eye (lens) that sees. Most any Zeiss is good. Among the various camera makers, and Sigma, one needs to shop with a critical eye, but within each of them are lenses that rival, and occasionally even surpass, Zeiss.
Before buying a more powerful PP software, invest in a high-quality lens. Bodies and software packages are upgraded every year, but lenses last a lifetime.
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ronkruger

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Re: Skies and high dynamic range images
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2011, 10:15:51 am »

The general advice with digital is to shoot to the right. I think this comes from product photographers and people who concentrate on making a few pennies from stock photography, both of which want more shadow detail than the human eye notices, or even wants to notice. I think landscape photography is the opposite. Shadows add greatly to the mood, richness and drama of the image, and shooting and/or processing to the left greatly enhances color richness. Shooting to the right, or overexposing, and then bringing it back in PP starts with dull colors. Shooting to the left, or underexposing, starts with rich colors. Just -1/3 stop makes a considerable difference with some cameras, while more is needed on other models. On the same scene with a tripod, mirror-up function, try bracketing exposure in AV, then without any color manipulation in PP compare them full screen on your computer to see the difference in color depth and richness.
While it is true that exposing to the right allows you to manipulate an image more in PP without introducing a lot of noise, while at the same time retaining more detail in the shadow areas, as long as you shoot at the lowest ISO possible, noise is not a problem. Besides, if you get it as close as possible at time of capture, you don't need to manipulate it as much in PP and risk introducing noise and artifacts. It is not just noise, but everything, that is better at lower ISOs, including color.
When you combine the richer color of lower ISOs with a slight underexposure to further enhance those colors, you begin with a rich image. Your shadows, of course, will be darker and lack detail, but I think that for landscapes, this is a good thing. Check out the way Ansel Adams and other masters utilized shadows. Doing this is even more important with color than with b/w, because color lacks contrast in comparison.
Various cameras expose differently. Those designed for higher ISO capabilities tend to overexpose a bit to begin. If your camera tends to overexpose in a plastic, product photography sort of way, you may need to underexpose a full stop to get what you want, so it is important to do some controlled tests and get to know your camera's exposure values well. At any rate, if you need to adjust exposure more than -1/3 stop in PP, you're not getting it right at time of capture.
Underexposing at time of capture also lets you capture a scene with a wide DR without blowing highlights, which can't be recovered. Bumping contrast also increases color slightly to the eye.
The most obvious way to bump color is with saturation, but I avoid this, or bump it very slightly in PP, for reasons already mentioned.
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ronkruger

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Re: Skies and high dynamic range images
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2011, 10:44:50 am »

Thank you, Mike, for the link.
I'm not suggesting this is the only way to shoot landscapes. Take or discount whatever you want. I'm just sharing my way and welcome further suggestions, because I'm still learning too. Most of my suggestions are to experiment with your own equipment to achieve the results that suit your tastes. The saying: garbage in, garbage out, is an exaggeration, but there is some truth in it. I'm not suggesting one do no PP. It is a necessary componet to the finished product, just as are color profiles and printer settings. My main point is that if one puts as much time into figuring out the processing computer (camera) one holds in one's hands as one does with a desktop, the end results will be much better and more reliable.
The camera is where it all begins. Make it about photography first, computer games second.
What was posted from the other thread is an overview of equipment. Next I'll get into actually shooting, because beyond all the sophisticated auto functions and the power of PP software packages, the most important thing remains what one puts into the frame and when they snap the shutter. This isn't just about composition, but color enhancement and DR control as well (they are both closely related).
Right now, however, I need to do a photo shoot of kayakers that should take all afternoon. Maybe I'll add more later this evening.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Skies and high dynamic range images
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2011, 12:18:20 pm »

Hi,

It's actually coming from landscape shooters who now what they are doing.

The idea is very simple, by exposing to the right you maximize the information in the image and it is decided in postprocessing how that information will be utilized. Digital sensors are essentially linearly proportional devices, so exposing to right does not effect anything except the number of bits actually used by the sensor, detail available in the darks and noise in the image. Exposing to the right is very much like using low ISO film, except that tonality is not affected.

To my best knowledge, the term ETTR was coined by a quite knowledgeable photographer name Michael Reichmann who also happens to be owner of this site.

Best regards
Erik

The general advice with digital is to shoot to the right. I think this comes from product photographers and people who concentrate on making a few pennies from stock photography, both of which want more shadow detail than the human eye notices, or even wants to notice.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Skies and high dynamic range images
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2011, 12:27:48 pm »

Hi,

I don't think lenses play a major role in taming skies and dynamic range. It is very well possible that lenses have different color renditions but I would suggest that can effectively be taken care of by properly calibrating the camera/lens combination with a color checker card and using proper white balancing.

Some lenses may be better than others regarding veiling flare. Fixed focus lenses with fewer elements and non moving groups may have less flare, that is more contrast, than lenses of more complex design.

My mostly used lenses are Zeiss designs (labeled "Zeiss") and they are quite good but I don't think they are exceptional.


Best regards
Erik

You choice in lenses is very influencial upon color. The design of the lens and the coatings cause lenses to "render" images in a certain way. Zeiss is the most consistent in the way they render colors and contrasts than any of my experience. Within the four or five most popular DSLR manufacturers, there is a wide variance in the way their lenses produce colors and contrasts. I find this true even within the Pentax line, which probably puts more emphisis into quality glass than some others. It is ture even among the Limiteds. Among my current lenses, I have two that render images as if they have built in polorizers, especially the DA 15 Limited, which produces images that remind me of Kodachrome 64, and occasionally even Kodachrome 25.
Lenses designed specifically for landscapes (usually wider) generally are better. One of the first things I do when getting a new lens is run it through a series of test to determine the sweet spot. Generally, the wider the lens the higher the sweet spot and DOF for comparable f-stops, which means you can get more depth and detail into them.
My point is, to increase the richness of colors at the time of capture, examine the line of lenses compatable with your system. Look at a broad range of images produced by them, and you'll start to see patterns of color and contrast.
It took me a long time to realize the importance of glass, and my advice now is to spend more on a lens than on a body. The body gets you there, but it is the eye (lens) that sees. Most any Zeiss is good. Among the various camera makers, and Sigma, one needs to shop with a critical eye, but within each of them are lenses that rival, and occasionally even surpass, Zeiss.
Before buying a more powerful PP software, invest in a high-quality lens. Bodies and software packages are upgraded every year, but lenses last a lifetime.
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Schewe

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Re: Skies and high dynamic range images
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2011, 12:31:51 pm »

To my best knowledge, the term ETTR was coined by a quite knowledgeable photographer name Michael Reichmann who also happens to be owner of this site.

I don't think Mike "coined" the term but he sure popularized the concept. The concept actually was told to Mike by Thomas Knoll, the co-author of Photoshop and founding engineer for Camera Raw as explained in this article.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Skies and high dynamic range images
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2011, 01:12:31 pm »

Jeff,

Thanks for putting this right. I was pretty sure i was not on solid ground saying Mike "coined" the term, but the first time I saw it was in the article you refer to.

Best regards
Erik


I don't think Mike "coined" the term but he sure popularized the concept. The concept actually was told to Mike by Thomas Knoll, the co-author of Photoshop and founding engineer for Camera Raw as explained in this article.
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LKaven

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Re: Skies and high dynamic range images
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2011, 01:47:15 pm »

Everything you do between the in-camera settings to the final adjustment of the printer effects the color, but my approach is to make the most minor adjustment along the way, building upon each, and I've found that adjusting in-camera applies a more even and holistic approach than doing it in PP. Every image is a bit different, and while I often bump contrast in PP, seldom do I change any of the color channels.
Even though I shoot RAW only, I convert to JPEG using the software that comes with the camera, so it automatically applies these setting to the JPEG, according to the Pentax idea of color. I suspect this is a good practice, regardless the make of your equipment, because the software they package with the camera is designed specifically for that model.

Many people who do RAW processing start with a "neutral" or "linear" capture with no other adjustments besides WB and levels to start.  This linear file is the cleanest data to start with.  A manufacturer's stock "looks" are based on tone curves applied to the data, which produce a "pleasing" look, but make the job of postprocessing harder.  If you start with curved data, you are always one generation away from the clean data, and you can scarcely "uncurve" it if you try without loss.  Start with linear data, and /then/ apply curves and adjustments, and your colors will come out as straight as they can.

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Re: Skies and high dynamic range images
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2011, 02:04:00 pm »

Ron, thinking further, I see you as an experienced photographer who shows signs of wrestling just slightly with the role that computers are to play in your future photography.  You are carrying over some of your assumptions from film photography in the process.  For example, you advocate the slide-shooter's principle of underexposing just slightly to increase color saturation.  Unfortunately, that assumption is flawed in digital photography.  As much as there may seem to be a principle of exposure that is constant between film and digital, in the end this isn't the actual case.  Of course the camera manufacturers do their level best to maintain the illusion of "just like film" by using film concepts interchangeably in the digital realm, but it's just an illusion. 

You can do what you want to do, but do it a little better if you tease out some of the concepts involved.  For example, if you shoot ETTR, use linear settings for capture, and apply just the few things you like, I think you will achieve better results -- better by your own standards.  Those 12-14 bits really "add up" in more ways than one.  And it doesn't have to take a long time, unless you gain a taste for doing more close and detailed work with a fine brush.

Dave (Isle of Skye)

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Re: Skies and high dynamic range images
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2011, 03:18:05 pm »

Hi Ron,

Thanks for telling us how you do this and giving us the benefit of your wealth of experience, as well as the rest of the information as and when you post it.

Photobloke.
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