LR3 Capture Sharpening

[Salmo22]

I'm new to LR and CS5. I am very interested in developing a good sharpening workflow. I am especially interested in proper capture sharpening in LR3. I've been shooting aviation photos recently and they don't seem to fit neatly in the normal box of high frequency/landscape or low frequency/portrait. To get me headed in the right direction, I need help determining if my typical aviation photos would be considered high frequency or low frequency for the purposes of sharpening? Please see a couple of recent captures below and let me know your opinion.





Thanks.

[Schewe]

To get me headed in the right direction, I need help determining if my typical aviation photos would be considered high frequency or low frequency for the purposes of sharpening? Please see a couple of recent captures below and let me know your opinion.

Actually, neither...the images you've posted really fall in the middle (or at least sort of in the middle). The differences will be finding an optimal radius. I suspect it'll be closer to 1.0 than the landscape presets...try .8 or .9. Then you'll want to adjust the Detail setting upwards and add a touch of edge masking. The amount setting should be set to a setting where the image "looks good" at 100%.

Also note that in LR 3, the Adjustment Brush works as an edge mask adjustment if you paint in with a minus sharpening setting between -1 and -50 it actually manually adds a reduced sharpening mask above and beyond the edge mask. Above -50 it actually adds blur (which you prolly don't want). So, you can work the global sharpening to be optimal and then paint in a minus sharpening for areas where the sharpening is suboptimal )like in the soft out of focus backgrounds.

[Salmo22]

Actually, neither...the images you've posted really fall in the middle (or at least sort of in the middle). The differences will be finding an optimal radius. I suspect it'll be closer to 1.0 than the landscape presets...try .8 or .9. Then you'll want to adjust the Detail setting upwards and add a touch of edge masking. The amount setting should be set to a setting where the image "looks good" at 100%.

Also note that in LR 3, the Adjustment Brush works as an edge mask adjustment if you paint in with a minus sharpening setting between -1 and -50 it actually manually adds a reduced sharpening mask above and beyond the edge mask. Above -50 it actually adds blur (which you prolly don't want). So, you can work the global sharpening to be optimal and then paint in a minus sharpening for areas where the sharpening is suboptimal )like in the soft out of focus backgrounds.

Thanks for the help Jeff - it is much appreciated. I suspected it might be in the middle (medium frequency edges as you call it in the book), but I needed help confirming my neophyte conclusion. Since my aviation captures are generally taken at less than 800 ISO, I'm thinking that aggressive luminance adjustment would not be necessary and that I could leave the luminance detail at the default.

[Schewe]

Since my aviation captures are generally taken at less than 800 ISO, I'm thinking that aggressive luminance adjustment would not be necessary and that I could leave the luminance detail at the default.

Actually, no...in my experience even though Luminance Noise Reduction is turned off, even well exposed low IOS images can benefit from luminance noise reduction. It's tricky because it really depends on the image but increasing the luminance noise reduction can allow you to increase the Detail slider and run the Amount of sharpening up a bit. Note that the final image size will have a direct impact on the amount of noise in an image. If you down sample and downsize 50%, that resampling makes for a pretty good noise reduction process. But if you are using the images large or upsampling you definitely want to make use of ACR/LR's really good noise reduction!

[Salmo22]

Actually, no...in my experience even though Luminance Noise Reduction is turned off, even well exposed low IOS images can benefit from luminance noise reduction. It's tricky because it really depends on the image but increasing the luminance noise reduction can allow you to increase the Detail slider and run the Amount of sharpening up a bit. Note that the final image size will have a direct impact on the amount of noise in an image. If you down sample and downsize 50%, that resampling makes for a pretty good noise reduction process. But if you are using the images large or upsampling you definitely want to make use of ACR/LR's really good noise reduction!

Very interesting Mr. Schewe! So by tweaking the Luminance noise reduction and the Detail sliders, I can milk a little more sharpening out of the image via the Amount slider? Is this still a Capture Sharpening activity or part of Creative Sharpening; or both?

Sorry for the newbie questions; however, this is how I learn.

Thanks.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Excellent advice from Mr. Schewe!

I'd just add that moving the detail slider all way to the right will switch sharpening algorithm, so deconvolution is used. You could try to use

Detail: 100
Amount: 45
Radius: to taste
Masking: 10
Some luminance noise reduction and see if you like the effect.

Avoid oversharpening.

Best regards
Erik

I'm new to LR and CS5. I am very interested in developing a good sharpening workflow. I am especially interested in proper capture sharpening in LR3. I've been shooting aviation photos recently and they don't seem to fit neatly in the normal box of high frequency/landscape or low frequency/portrait. To get me headed in the right direction, I need help determining if my typical aviation photos would be considered high frequency or low frequency for the purposes of sharpening? Please see a couple of recent captures below and let me know your opinion.





Thanks.

[Philmar]

I've noticed on some of the LR presets that I've downloaded from various free sites that give very sharp results use VERY agressive sharpening amounts, large radius (both to the max) and are coupled with lots of luminance noise reduction and heavy edge masking. I find it is too sharp for my tastes but it really brings out small details (which is counter-intuitive to me since I thought small details were best sharpened with low radius). I usually ramp them down as I feel like I'm cheating.

Hi,

Excellent advice from Mr. Schewe!

I'd just add that moving the detail slider all way to the right will switch sharpening algorithm, so deconvolution is used. You could try to use

How far to the right? Is there a threshold point at which point the deconvolution threshold kicks in?

[deejjjaaaa]

Very interesting Mr. Schewe! So by tweaking the Luminance noise reduction and the Detail sliders, I can milk a little more sharpening out of the image via the Amount slider?

Eric Chan explained that in new ACR/LR the detail slider control the ratio between some form of USM sharpening and some form of deconvolution deblurring... where the detail slider = 0 means no input from deconvolution deblurring and the detail slider = 100 means pure deconvolution deblurring... how both methods are mixed exactly remains a proprietary information so far... now deconvolution deblurring might be considered a good way to "milk a little more", but it is very sensitive to that exactly noise that Mr. Schewe is talking about, hence his advise to mix both to achieve good results


DxO is suspected/known (I think they had that comment in some of their FAQs, which is now removed from their website) to run mandatory (user can't switch off) NR before applying their deconvolution deblurring when using camera+lens modules

[deejjjaaaa]

How far to the right? Is there a threshold point at which point the deconvolution threshold kicks in?

according to Eric Chan anything more than 0 will start to reduce the input from some form of USM and increase the input from some form of deconvolution deblurring... so there is no point where the switch is happening, however how they are mixing the results was not disclosed (at least I did not see that, now may be people like Eric or Schewe will be able to tell us more about the mixing)

[Schewe]

I would have to leave it up to Eric to decide whether or not he could say anything...but it's more complicated than you might think because it's not just moving between USM and deconvolution but also includes a halo dampening as part of the mix. A setting of 0 has full on dampening and zero deconvolution. A setting of 100 has zero dampening and full deconvolution. Settings in between have a blend. And yes, depending on the radius setting a full Detail 100 will indeed bring out the noise if you don't also add luminance noise reduction into the final settings...

[Salmo22]

I appreciate everyones comments. I must admit that much in the last few posts has sailed directly over my head. I'm not sure at this stage of my enlightenment that it is critical that I know exactly when the slider moves between USM (?) and deconvolution. I just want to employ proper Capture Sharpening techniques so I get the most out of my images and LR3.

As a newbie trying to keep things as simple as possible, I want to make sure that I understand Jeff correctly. Increases in the Luminance noise reduction and Detail sliders will allow me to make additional increases in the Amount slider; and thus improve image sharpness? As Mr. Reichmann might say "season to taste". I also want to make sure that these "tweaks" are part of a good Capture Sharpening workflow?

Many thanks again.

[Schewe]

Increases in the Luminance noise reduction and Detail sliders will allow me to make additional increases in the Amount slider; and thus improve image sharpness?

No...not exactly...fine tuning ALL of the Detail panel settings including; Amount, Radius, Detail, Edge Mask and having the correct Luminance Noise Reduction is the key to getting optimal image detail. If you add the correct luminance noise reduction you can increase the detail settings and amount of the sharpening but it all depends on the image, the source and the ISO. Unfortunately, there are no simple answers. It's really an image be image determination.

However, there is light at the end of the tunnel–once you get an image type optimized, the odds are pretty good that other images of the same type will respond equally well. That means you can create templates for the types of images you do and then only fine tune the image.

The other sliders; the Luminance Noise Reduction's Detail and Contrast and Color Noise Reduction and Detail are less worrisome unless you are using hyper ISO's.

[Salmo22]

No...not exactly...fine tuning ALL of the Detail panel settings including; Amount, Radius, Detail, Edge Mask and having the correct Luminance Noise Reduction is the key to getting optimal image detail. If you add the correct luminance noise reduction you can increase the detail settings and amount of the sharpening but it all depends on the image, the source and the ISO. Unfortunately, there are no simple answers. It's really an image be image determination.

However, there is light at the end of the tunnel–once you get an image type optimized, the odds are pretty good that other images of the same type will respond equally well. That means you can create templates for the types of images you do and then only fine tune the image.

The other sliders; the Luminance Noise Reduction's Detail and Contrast and Color Noise Reduction and Detail are less worrisome unless you are using hyper ISO's.

I think you finally penetrated the thick lead plate that functions as my forehead - I think I understand. I've got about 40 images from last week that are all the same ISO, similar lighting, similar composition and very similar subjects. I'm going to pick a representative capture from the group and through all the Detail panel settings to achieve optimal image detail. I will then use those settings for a template to sync with all the other images. That should give me a good place to start before I move into CS5 and work on my Creative Sharpening.

Again, many thanks.

PS - I've purchased a copy of your "Image Sharpening" book (2nd edition) and it has been a great help. Posting on this forum lets me fill-in any gaps in my comprehension - especially when that clarification comes from one of the authors.

[Schewe]

PS - I've purchased a copy of your "Image Sharpening" book (2nd edition) and it has been a great help. Posting on this forum lets me fill-in any gaps in my comprehension - especially when that clarification comes from one of the authors.

Glad the book was a help...we're still all pretty early in the learning curve since this stuff is so new. It's easy to get a bit overwhelmed–sometimes happens to me when using a new tool. That and the fact that Adobe has this habit of updating the software every 18-24 months which usually requires a new learning curve because, well, they keep making improvements :~)

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I don't know. Eric Chan posted the info on these forums. My understanding is that left en of scale is USM with halo suppression and right end is deconvolution. I don't know which PSF is used but guess either defocus or gaussian.

Best regards
Erik

I've noticed on some of the LR presets that I've downloaded from various free sites that give very sharp results use VERY agressive sharpening amounts, large radius (both to the max) and are coupled with lots of luminance noise reduction and heavy edge masking. I find it is too sharp for my tastes but it really brings out small details (which is counter-intuitive to me since I thought small details were best sharpened with low radius). I usually ramp them down as I feel like I'm cheating.

How far to the right? Is there a threshold point at which point the deconvolution threshold kicks in?

[kuau]

Erik,
i am using a pentax 645d 39mp cropped sensor, and unfortunatly stuck using old pentax fa lenses where i normally shoot them all at f11-f13 so i know im sure i  have some difraction going on, shoot all landscape and was wondering if your starting points would work well for me,
oh yeah always shoot at iso 100 so noise is not an issue.
i print to a hp z3200 ps
steven

Hi,

Excellent advice from Mr. Schewe!

I'd just add that moving the detail slider all way to the right will switch sharpening algorithm, so deconvolution is used. You could try to use

Detail: 100
Amount: 45
Radius: to taste
Masking: 10
Some luminance noise reduction and see if you like the effect.

Avoid oversharpening.

Best regards
Erik2

[David Eichler]

Umm, I can find no mention of output sharpening above. Aren't capture and output sharpening interrelated?