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Author Topic: The Achilles heel of the 1Ds -- huge liability  (Read 4671 times)

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The Achilles heel of the 1Ds -- huge liability
« on: July 12, 2003, 09:29:14 am »

Well, as a charter member of ther "Holy Grail" club I suppose that I should add my comments.

Yes, I agree, the sensor dust problem with the 1Ds is real, and quite annoying. But there are a few things to keep in mind.

One is that the 1Ds differs from other CMOS and CCD cameras in one major respect, the size of the sensor. More surface area, more places for dust to settle.

The other is that the camera's succeptability to dust appears to be inversely proportional to humidity. When I've been shooting in the American Southwest and in winter, dust problems are greatest. In damp conditions, or recently in Iceland, for example, dust accumulation was minor.

Cleaning the sensor is really not a big deal. 30 seconds with a Sensor Swab and Eclipse fluid and its done. No muss, no fuss. One's confidence in doing the cleaning builds a bit after the 30th time  

Frankly, your email appears to be a bit of a tirade. Sure the dust problem with digital is annoying, and indeed the 1Ds appears to show it more than other DSLRs, due I'm convinced, to the larger sensor. But, let's not get carried away.

I shot some 1,300 frames while in Iceland a few weeks ago.  I never bothered cleaning the sensor because I couldn't see any dust accumulation, other than one spot which takes a single click with the cloning tool to eliminate. Two other photographers on the trip also shot with the 1Ds, and between us I think there was one sensor cleaning session the whole week.

My friend Steve Kossack has shot about 10,000 frames with his 1Ds and has cleaned his sensor just once, and he lives in Arizona, the dust capital of the U.S.

Keep in mind that no matter how bad it is, sensor dust is nothing compared to the "spotting" that's needed from most film scans, or (horrors) the individual print spotting that used to be needed in the chemical darkroom.

As a founding member of the Canon 1Ds "Holy Grail" club I can assure you — the sky definately isn't falling.

Michael
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marty m

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The Achilles heel of the 1Ds -- huge liability
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2003, 06:55:26 pm »

Michael:

This is my first interaction with you on your web site, so let me begin by praising the outstanding quality of the articles and reviews on Luminous Landscape.  I also recommend the Video Journal to everyone that I know -- and urge them to buy all of the back issues! ':D'

Having said that, I must respectfully disagree:

(1)  I have owned Canon -- and Canon only -- for over 20 years.  IMHO it is the best 35 mm system for landscape use.  I'm a member of the Holy Grail club as well from that perspective.  

(2)  Is my posting a tirade?  I believe that manufacturers only devote the necessary engineering resources -- or will devote even more resources -- when they are sharply criticised for an obvious and serious problem.  All too often those who use a particular system just defend it rather than sharply criticising it even when such comments are warranted.  

(3)  The dust problem may be minor for you and others -- but you are clearly a minority in light of the postings from those complaining about the problem.  Just check out the postings on the Galbraith forum -- they go on for page after page after page.      When so many Canon owners are reporting serious problems the issue simply can't be ignored -- notwithstanding your own experience.

(4)  Indeed, the many web pages devoted to cleaning strongly support my view that we should sharply crticize Canon.  Those who use these cameras have tried saran wrap, spatulas, alocohol and other cleaning products.  This is really an absurd situation.  Canon sells an $8000 camera that includes such serious defect that we driven to trying saran wrap and spatulas to clean it!  Frankly, it is remarkable that there are not more protests of indignation.  

(5)  Indeed, your own article violates the express written instructions from Canon included with the 1Ds.  Some have expressed concern that using any of these methods may violate the warranty.  Despite that concern, we have all tried these cleaning methods.  

And why?  Why do we run the risk of voiding the warranty?  Because the method recommended by Canon is grossly inadequate.  

Let's see -- Canon markets a product with a serious problem and then recommends a solution that we all know is inadequate.  

If that isn't cause for protests to Canon -- what does it take?

(6)  IMHO it is simply indisputable that the current technology is entirely unacceptable for the average consumer.  The price of full frame CMOS sensors will signficantly drop in price at some point in the future.  Even when that happens, Canon could never sell this technology to the mass public.  The public would not waste hours and hours cleaning their cameras.  

If the goal is to undermine public support for digital -- well just market this technology to the public and the results will speak for themselves.  I'd argue that if the technology is not acceptable for the average consumer -- it is equally unacceptable in an $8000 professional camera.

(7)  If your own recommended solution worked -- and did so every time without concern -- we would all be happy campers.  Unfortunately, many of us (myself included) have found that Eclipse leaves as many spots as it cleans.  I welcome any suggestions in that regard, but I gave up on Eclipse and the swabs after trying it in countless variations.  In my own experience they just make the problem worse.  As far as I can tell Eclipse evaporates so quickly it leaves spots behind which then can't be easily removed.  I welcome any advice in that regard, as maybe I am simply doing it wrong.
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sergio

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The Achilles heel of the 1Ds -- huge liability
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2003, 10:01:36 pm »

I think the problem has a lot to with attitude. I spent countless hours getting rid of dust when I shot film. Now I take less than 5 secs to have my frame clean in PS.
You can see the glass half empty or half full. Depends on you.
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Robert Roaldi

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The Achilles heel of the 1Ds -- huge liability
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2003, 12:46:37 pm »

I don't own a DSLR but I just had to comment on Mr. Wienke dummy lens cleaning device concept. I don't know if it's feasible or not but what a crafty idea it is, regardless of whether it can be made to work.

This issue and the long-term durability of sensors always make me wonder whether we'll be buying used 1Ds's in 2025 on eBay the way we can pick up working early 80's manual SLR's  nowadays.
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Canon 1Ds Dust Problem

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The Achilles heel of the 1Ds -- huge liability
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2003, 11:37:39 pm »

For those Canon 1Ds and any other D-SLR owners, I would like to know how far you can typically stop down before the dust spots become a serious problem.

For my D1X, I don't like to go down beyond F11-13 at the very most. F16-22 is too nasty to even think about after only a couple months without cleaning. For day to day shooting, I'm usually living by the old rule, "F8 and be there." Even at f8, I'm still spending a few minutes doing speck removal in PS with either the Healing Brush and/or the Rubber Stamp(cloning)Tool.  

I've cleaned the CCD twice now and the last time I should've quit while I was ahead. But I made the mistake of trying to get a couple more spots off and ended up making it worse.
I've tried cleaning it a variety of ways, including, but not limited to Thom Hogan's "Wendy's knife" procedure. I've used the Eclipse fluid and other things, but the best way to me is to use Dust Off compressed air to blow it off. Not absolutely perfect, but short of sending it to a Nikon Authorized Pro service center, it's the best thing. At least for me.

Maybe I just don't have the skills, the right touch, but I'll likely be sending mine to Nikon or one of the authorized facilities in the future. That American Recorder CO2 system was a $50.00+ waste of money for me. A complete dud as far as I'm concerned. I put the cartridges in the sprayer unit exactly as directed, but they ran out of pressure way too fast. If absolutely necessary, I would rather go back to the regular store brands and making sure to shoot a couple test air bursts before applying to CCD and at the correct angle. I can buy about 5 10 oz cans for what one American recorder kit costs.

It'll be interesting to see what future Nikon, Canon and other brand digitals are equipped with to reduce the problem. I'm kinda skeptical that the upcoming D2H(?)announced next week will have any real solution to the problem, but Nikon is welcome to surprise me. If it is a replacement for the D1H, and not the X, then I won't be interested.  

All things considered however, despite how we may b#### about CCD/CMOS chips, I'll take digital capture over film & scanning any day. It's still easier and less time consuming then cleaning film, then prescanning, then scanning, then cleaning again in PS.

I've made it my goal to go the entire year without shooting any film and so far so good. Nearly 11,000 DSC images shot so far, but I will need to send the thing to Nikon for a real thorough cleaning and image buffer upgrade, which I've been putting off.
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Dan Sroka

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The Achilles heel of the 1Ds -- huge liability
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2003, 03:59:54 pm »

Dust, like light, is simply a part of photography.
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jlleigh

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The Achilles heel of the 1Ds -- huge liability
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2003, 10:15:06 pm »

i have to agree with Dan, dust will always be a part of photography, i am sure many of you have loaded 4X5 film in a changing bag while shooting on the desert and can relate to dust problems!  i shoot a 1DS and find i used to spend  much more time using the healing brush when scanning Medium Format transpaencies than i do working with the 1DS files, and a large majority of my shooting is on the desert in Southern Utah! A little common sense when using the camera goes a long way! it seems that no matter how wonderful  these cameras become, there will always be folks out there that have to pick them apart, and the net is a wonderful spring board for that! i often wonder how many of those people actually own and use these cameras on a day to day basis!
Jim
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Peter Gregg

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The Achilles heel of the 1Ds -- huge liability
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2003, 11:23:07 am »

"Don't for a second imagine that anything we say here. or on Galbraith, or anywhere else for that matter is going to change things one iota in Tokyo, which is the only place that counts."

Michael is absolutely correct. They are not and will not listen to our ramblings on this topic.

What they respond too is easy to see. Here is an example: How long would it take for all of us to get Nikon to change the price on the D100? it would take forever. Yet, when Canon came out with the 10D at $1499, how long did it take Nikon to change the price then? Same with Fuji here too.

So, if we complain about the dust, I expect nothing. If Nikon comes out with a camera with a dust screen on it and it is perceived as the best thing since sliced bread, Canon will move mighty fast.

Also, if the E1 is super successful and the dust cleaning device is one of the things credited, then guess what, this will move Canon too.

The big scare when the 14n was announced caused Canon to lower the price by $1k. It was a cautious move and it paid off for Canon. The 14n isn't enough to bother the 1Ds very much. Chances are, without the 14n scare, they would have left it at $8999.

So what moves Canon is competitors that may give us what we want. The other thing that moves Canon is what they think themselves. Obviously they don't think the dust issue will cause people not to buy this camera, and they give it the necessary amount of thought - ZERO. Phil Askey said at one point how he thought it ridiculous that expensive DSLR's didn't have a dust screen on them since their nature was to attract dust and the lens was removable. Didn't do a thing.

Olympus must have sat down and taken all the issues they could have gathered and decided to address as many as possible. Whether you like the camera or not, look at the features:
weather resistant
smaller & lighter
dust screen
dust cleaner
4:3 view
firewire
USB 2.0
open to other lens manufacturers
3 bulb AF assist lamp
ISO 100 - 800 plus 1600 & 3200
external white balance sensor
removable focusing screen


These are some things they just got right because they decided to hit major issues head on. Pricing is not a major issue. If Olympus actually pulls this off and delivers quality and performance, then they can claim a legit price for a pro level camera. People who complain are the ones that don't understand what they are paying for. After all, it's just a camera right? LOL

Pete
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marty m

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The Achilles heel of the 1Ds -- huge liability
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2003, 02:53:01 am »

There have been a number of postings about the problem of cleaning dust off the 1Ds sensor.

What has received insufficient attention is that this is a serious liability for the camera. Those who use the 1Ds are by definition professionals and advanced amateurs in light of the price of the 1Ds. We are willing to endure a high degree of frustration and time consuming chores to obtain professional results.

But that also means that we end up posting page after page on how to clean the #### thing rather than condemning Canon for selling an $8000 camera with such a huge liability built into the camera.

Cleaning the sensor on the 1Ds is time consuming and enormously frustrating. No one should have to endure this level of frustration with a camera body that carries such a huge price tag. Canon reps read this site and we should aim our comments at them. Canon will only address this problem -- either with a modification that can be installed by the US service center or in a future model -- when we all start to rebel. Canon should be condemned for marketing an $8000 camera with such a huge liability.

I'm not an engineer and am not qualified to speculate as to a solution to this problem. One of the postings on Image Revue offered this solution: "The real answer is for Canon to put an anti static device [that would] change the polarity of the chip which would cause it to repel dust."

Digital technology is rapidly advancing, and cameras with the quality of a 1Ds will probably be selling for less than $2000 within three to five years. But Canon could never afford to market a camera aimed at the average consumer market that suffered from this horrendous dust problem.

Any consumer camera with such an achilles heel would be crucified in the press and in reviews. And deservedly so. Consumers would return it in droves.

Canon must fix the problem by then or they dare not market such a camera.

Which suggests that they should have fixed the problem before they put the 1Ds on the market.

I realize there are many members of the Canon/1Ds "holy grail" who participate in this forum, and who will probably rise up and object to this posting. To the members of the Canon Holy Grail club I can only repeat that the dust problem is a huge liability, and Canon will only fix it when we all howl with indignation.
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Rainer SLP

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The Achilles heel of the 1Ds -- huge liability
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2003, 11:46:24 am »

Hi,
In May I bought a 1Ds and sure I have read all this concerns about dust.
I use to change lenses very often and sure I expected to get dust into the sensor.
As Michael said after a certain quantity of sensor cleanings you get more and more experience in doing this.

But, yes a big BUT

I see a certain paranoia developing about dust in the sensor. Everybody is more occupied in analyzing a dust problem of his sensor and is beginning to spend more and more time with this than going out into the field and take photographs.

If you change lenses very often do it calmly. Prepare your lenses which you want to change and make it as slowly but quickly as possible, do not shake around the camera with open bajonett. First take off the rear protecting lens cover, then take off the lens from the camera and put the new lens on the camera. Afterwards put the rear protective lens cover at the freed lens. Dust on the rear part of the lens is by far less a problem than on the sensor, so do not worry about leaving the lens upside down open until you have put it on the camera.

I live in Mexico and shot in very dusty conditions and the dust problem is there but let us not overdo in judging this. In the most cases the dust spots diapeear in the motif and as Michael said a few cloning strokes and the problem is away.

Also all this lens test are developing into a comoon sport among the digital photographers. When Film was still more common than digital nobody and not so many people used to test this. We bought our cameras, bought our film and went out shooting.

NOW! everybody is testing everything and everybody knows it better than the camera producers.

Let us go out shooting and let the tests be made by people who get paid for it.

As everybody says " just my 2 cents to it " but in this case " just my 2 dollars on it "
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Thanks and regards Rainer
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The Achilles heel of the 1Ds -- huge liability
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2003, 07:33:47 pm »

There's little point in us arguing the issue. Sure, it's a problem. A real problem. Some people find it to be worse than others.

But Canon is a big company. Having worked in senior management at another big Japanese conglomerate (Matsushita / Panasonic) I know well how they work, and also something of the Japanese business mentality.

Don't for a second imagine that anytting we say here. or on Galbraith, or anywhere else for that matter is going to change things one iota in Tokyo, which is the only place that counts. They are well aware of what's going on and have oodles of feedback from photograpgher world-wide. Whether they do something about it or not, or whether doing something fits within their corporate strategy, is another matter.

Michael — not really a pessamist, but a realist.
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Jonathan Wienke

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The Achilles heel of the 1Ds -- huge liability
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2003, 01:42:51 am »

I'm fascinated by the Pentax solution to the sensor dust issue--ultrasonic sensor cleaning every time the camera powers up. There is an opportunity for someone to make a dummy lens with a ultrasonic emitter, a small fan and a dust trap to loosen the dust particles from the sensor and capture them in the dust trap. For the ultimate in convenience, put a few white LED's in it (appropriately diffused of course) to shine on the sensor, so that you can take a test exposure to check for any remaining dust particles without having to switch back to a real lens.

Operation could be extremely simple: attach the dummy lens, put the camera in manual mode, take a 1 second exposure, review the shot for dust spots. If any are noted, take another shot. When no dust spots are observed, remove the dummy lens and replace with standard lens, continue shooting. No rectum-puckering forays into sensor cleaning mode and touching the sensor and wondering if you are going to scratch something and ruin thousands of dollars worth of camera components.

The fan and the ultrasonic emitter should run off the camera battery, perhaps augmented with a battery in the dummy lens if the power requirements are higher than the designed outputs of the camera. When the shutter button is half-pressed, turn on the air circulator fan (run the fan off the autofocus signal), and when the shutter opens, turn on the ultrasonic emitter. Just before the shutter closes, turn off the ultrasonic emitter, blink the LED's, and the shut off the circulator fan.

If someone built this with a Canon EF mount, I would buy one. Would you?
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BJL

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The Achilles heel of the 1Ds -- huge liability
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2003, 07:10:33 pm »

I think that Jonathan W. got the brand wrong: the forthcoming Olympus E-1 has an ultrasonic cleaning system that runs on start-up (plus replacable sticky tape to catch the falling dust?) So we will see how well it works in a few months.

Anyway, DSLR technology is still developing, and I am sure that there is lots of room for innovation and improvement in these convenience features, especially now that the pixel count race seems to be winding down for all except the very high end, and camera makers are turning more to distinguishing their products on other aspects.

P. S. My guess is that the electronics in DSLR's is too delicate to have great lifetimes; maybe laptop computer lifespans are indicative of what we can hope for.
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Jonathan Wienke

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The Achilles heel of the 1Ds -- huge liability
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2003, 11:16:27 pm »

I stand corrected on the DSLR brand with ultrasonic sensor cleaning, but sorely wish someone would make such a device. No new technology would have to be invented to make it work, the ultrasonic emitters are out there, and so are the fans and LED's. All one needs to do is put them into a case with an EF mount bayonet and the appropriate electronics to activate the cleaning device from the lens contacts on the camera.
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marty m

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The Achilles heel of the 1Ds -- huge liability
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2003, 12:27:27 am »

(1)  Michael commented that:

Quote
Don't for a second imagine that anytting we say here. or on Galbraith, or anywhere else for that matter is going to change things one iota in Tokyo, which is the only place that counts. They are well aware of what's going on and have oodles of feedback from photograpgher world-wide. Whether they do something about it or not, or whether doing something fits within their corporate strategy, is another matter.

I don't doubt that getting the gigantic Japanese monolithic corporations to change course is very difficult.  I would prefer to try rather than to simply accept this dismal situation of dust and the 1Ds.

It may be true that my comments will have little or zero impact on Canon, but reviewers carry more clout.   Michael's web site and video journal is widely known among photographers -- indeed, I would be hard pressed to name a single serious photographer who I talk to who does *not* read the articles and reviews on Luminous Landscape.  (Michael, aren't you delighted to hear that !)

I therefore plead with Michael to not underestimate his own influence.  My influence may be zero, and Michael's may be minimal -- but Canon clearly does monitor and consider Michael's views.  I would urge Michael to reflect not only his own experiences, but those of countless users who have posted on this and the Galbraith site.

(2)  With regard to whether Canon reads these comments, they do so -- at least in the case of Galbraith -- where a Canon rep already posted in a similar thread.

(3)  The following was posted on another forum:

Quote
buyers should still have their reasonable expectations fulfilled and should still be able to obtain redress when a design defect interferes with their use of the camera. Perhaps if Canon were to include a warning on the box that says regular use and following approved cleaning methods may render this camera useless, we would not feel so bad about spending the $8,000.00.

While I have retouched my share of prints, I have never seen the dirt, dust and dots on prints or negatives that are the regular fare of my 1Ds.

Perhaps if more people were as outraged as Marty and were sufficiently vocal, something might get done. The 1Ds is a tool. While it may be the best tool out there, it does not excuse the defect or condone Canon's official policy that there is no problem with the AA filter that a simple squeeze with a blower can't cure. We are not just dealing with the problem of the dust, we are dealing with Canon's attitude toward that problem.

I only became aware of the seriousness of this problem after the narrow return window with B&H had closed. The above comments are right -- Canon has not honestly marketed this product -- or revealed the scope of the problem. As it now stands the 1Ds contains an undisclosed marketing defect.

Canon implies that it is so minor that a little air blower can solve it.

Baloney.

This problem may not be unique to Canon -- but those who used different digital cameras report that it is much worse with the 1Ds. And Canon's only approved method to clean it is a lousy air blower.

Not that I much blame them. Someone else commented that he foolishly tried cleaning methods like Eclipse and it only made matters worse. That was my experience as well. Eclipse appears to evaporate so quickly that it leaves even more spots behind.
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Ray

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The Achilles heel of the 1Ds -- huge liability
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2003, 10:04:29 pm »

Light is[/i] photography. Dust is a nuisance.
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Tony Collins

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The Achilles heel of the 1Ds -- huge liability
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2003, 07:08:11 am »

I have read all the horror stories so when I picked up my 10D I was fairly happy that I would have less dusting than if I had a 1DS. Imagine how I felt when after fitting a lens with clinical care and taking my first set of pics of the wild ponies on Dartmoor and returning home to look at them on the screen. The result: big black blobs visible against the sky worse than dust on a scanned slide. Horror!!

I zoomed in closer. Hang on those dust specks have little wings.

Conclusion: The rear end of a pony attracts a lot of flies.
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Jonathan Wienke

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The Achilles heel of the 1Ds -- huge liability
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2003, 12:44:09 pm »

In the meantime, I swab the sensor every few weeks and take lots of great pictures. We could be all still working with uncoated optics, primes only, ISO 10 B&W emulsions on glass plates...ahh the good old days--NOT!
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