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Author Topic: Photo Rag Media For Plexi Facemounting  (Read 11762 times)

satelles

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Photo Rag Media For Plexi Facemounting
« on: February 03, 2011, 03:10:52 am »

I've been getting conflicting information regarding plexi facemounting. I have sent two test prints to Finishing Concepts in Los Angeles. One print on Epson Premium Glossy, the other on Exhibition Fiber, and had both facemounted on 1/8" plexi. The Exhibition Fiber print did not turn out well at all (lots of orange peel effect), the glossy paper looked good. The folks at Finishing Concepts told me that anything other than a smooth glossy paper will not yield acceptable results. On the other hand the people at Laumont in NYC told me that they recommend Photo rag matte papers for face mounting. This totally contradicts my test prints and what finishing Concepts has told me. Supposedly, they are both using the same process (diasec/plexi mounts). Does anyone have any info on this? My next call is to Duggal in NYC. I have been printing on Hanemuhle Photo Rag. Laumont says that it is the best media for face mounting, yet many others say glossy media only. Any suggestions?
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dgberg

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Re: Photo Rag Media For Plexi Facemounting
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2011, 05:35:05 am »

I've been getting conflicting information regarding plexi facemounting. I have sent two test prints to Finishing Concepts in Los Angeles. One print on Epson Premium Glossy, the other on Exhibition Fiber, and had both facemounted on 1/8" plexi. The Exhibition Fiber print did not turn out well at all (lots of orange peel effect), the glossy paper looked good. The folks at Finishing Concepts told me that anything other than a smooth glossy paper will not yield acceptable results. On the other hand the people at Laumont in NYC told me that they recommend Photo rag matte papers for face mounting. This totally contradicts my test prints and what finishing Concepts has told me. Supposedly, they are both using the same process (diasec/plexi mounts). Does anyone have any info on this? My next call is to Duggal in NYC. I have been printing on Hanemuhle Photo Rag. Laumont says that it is the best media for face mounting, yet many others say glossy media only. Any suggestions?

Optically clear adhesive is a product like Seals Optimount and applied by a roll laminator. Diasec is a complex silicone process and to the best of my knowledge strictly liscensed. Which did you get? Finishing Concept used the word diasec on the web promo but in the next sentence they say optically clear adhesive?  I have seen 3 or more mounting studios that market diasec but sell roll laminated adhesive products on plexi.
It might be acceptable to use the term diasec for both processes?  Except it's not the same thing.
I am pretty sure Laumont does both a diasec process and also uses optical adhesives. You can usually tell from the price which you are getting. If Finishing Concepts states they are diasec mounting when in fact they are using the Optimount adhesive process instead ,I would want to know.
I have no experience with the true diasec process and if it can be done with papers other then gloss. I would call Laumont as they are the experts here in the USA. (I say USA only because your profile is empty?)
For my own curiosity do you have a price quote from both companies for the exact same size job? That would probably give you your answer. (diasec vs. optimount)



OptiMount Optically Clear Adhesive

PRODUCT OVERVIEW:
OptiMount - is an optically clear, two-sided adhesive for face mounting ink jet, photographic, electrostatic and plain paper prints to clear acrylics, plastic and glass. OptiMount features ultraviolet inhibitors to help protect images from fading. OptiMount creates a permanent bond to both graphic and substrate, and its acid-free adhesive coatings perform flawlessly in vented light box applications.


Diasec
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Diasec is a patented process used for facemounting prints like photographs on acrylic glass. The process was invented by Heinz Sovilla-Brulhart in 1969.
Because of the different light penetration and refraction of acrylic glass compared to normal glass, the colours are more brilliant and the image sharper than compared to standard glass in a picture frame. A Diasec mount is usually of a high gloss finish. Because the print is glued to the acrylic glass, the result is a completely flat mount of the image.
The print is also resistant to ultraviolet (UV) light because of the properties of acrylic glass. There are other processes to achieve similar results, these are in the photographic or art world sometimes also called Diasec prints. Diasec is however a registered trademark.

The whole process is dedicated to mounting the print without air bubbles or smears. The image is face mounted and bonded to the acrylic glass with a silicone sealant. The silicone sealant, which has a consistency of a gel, acts as a glue between the print and the acrylic glass.
Normally the print is placed on a carrier at the backside. This is usually dibond, a composite plate of aluminium and plastic. Aluminium or other materials are also possible. If the print has to be backlit, translucent materials are necessary.



Here is an ad off of an unnamed artists website promoting diasec but using optically clear adhesive.

Benefits of Diasec Mounting

•   Archival professional quality print
•   Face-mounted with optically clear adhesive
•   Backed with Aluminum Composite Panel (AKA Dibond etc.) for rigidity and flatness
•   1-inch thick aluminum frame for that “floating in the air” impression
« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 08:53:59 am by Dan Berg »
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Photo Rag Media For Plexi Facemounting
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2011, 07:04:29 am »

Worldwide more shops do Diasec mounting. Not all are able to face mount inkjet papers. Wilcovak in The Netherlands can face mount RC inkjet papers and matte fine-art like PhotoRag. The last without any extra step but most likely with a different quality glue (my guess). The RC inkjet quality however gets a transparent lamination foil first to improve the bond for the facemounting glue. That is what I read on their webpages and what I heard. I guess your shop in LA didn't develop new methods within the Diasec system if they use Diasec.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

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http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html

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satelles

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Re: Photo Rag Media For Plexi Facemounting
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2011, 12:53:06 pm »

Thanks for the replies.

Upon further investigation here is what I found regarding different service bureaus. Laumont uses 2 methods to facemount depending on the media. Liquid Silicone (comparable to Diasec) and Film Transparency. They state that the Liquid Silicone method works well with textured papers like photo rag. The film transparency only works well with glossy or non textured papers. Apparently Finishing Concepts uses the latter despite what their website says. Duggal states that they will only facemount C prints as inkjet prints react poorly with their adhesives. They report that it is more of a 'crystalizing issue' over time.
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Sven W

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Re: Photo Rag Media For Plexi Facemounting
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2011, 05:50:04 pm »

As Ernst mentioned, Wilcovak in Hoogeveen, Netherlands and
Grieger in Düsseldorf, Germany, accept inkjet prints for Diasec.(see Dan's reply)
I've also done some myself here in Sweden and the best results was with Luster & SemiGloss RC.
But even the Canson Baryta worked fine.

Why do one want to facemount a matte fine art paper, resulting in super-shiny ciba look-alike?

/Sven
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Christopher

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Re: Photo Rag Media For Plexi Facemounting
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2011, 08:29:02 am »

Grieger in Germany offers real DIASEC and will do it on any paper, however if one uses inkjet prints there is a thin lamination applied to the print. This however is completely invisible. I hve some 40x50 inch print hanging here, printed on Harman Baryta, mounted by Grieger and it looks amazing.
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Christopher Hauser
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cacnyc1

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Re: Photo Rag Media For Plexi Facemounting
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2011, 10:33:21 pm »

does anyone know what the substitute for diasec is? that is, another optically clear liquid silicone mounting adhesive that i can buy in a store or online without a licence? I work with laumont as they are down the block from me and very good, but i like to mount smaller works my self on my manual press. I also use mactac permatrans transparent film (very much like seal optimount but apparently slightly more archival if that's even relevant with adhesives…) but i want to experiment with the liquid stuff.

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Sven W

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Re: Photo Rag Media For Plexi Facemounting
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2011, 06:02:32 am »

Since the Diasec patent has expired, but still under Trademark,
there is a small chance that someone will tell you "the secrets" behind the original process.
But there are numerous mounting studios out there, doing the same(almost) work.
Go ahead and ask them. E.g. Laumont.

/Sven
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Alistair

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Re: Photo Rag Media For Plexi Facemounting
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2011, 07:02:26 am »

Here in the UK is a different story. The only licensed Diasec lab insists on Lambda, C Type, Lightjet or Duratrans. One of my clients told specifically not to use inkjet prints and in the end used digital C-Type. Here is their info page http://www.kaymounting.co.uk/KM/Useful_Information.html. Go figure...

Goodness, service and flexibilty are not words that come to mind when reading this website. Only in England! (I am in England so I am allowed to say this!).
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Alistair

MandyS

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Re: Photo Rag Media For Plexi Facemounting
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2011, 10:23:13 am »

I've been getting conflicting information regarding plexi facemounting. I have sent two test prints to Finishing Concepts in Los Angeles. One print on Epson Premium Glossy, the other on Exhibition Fiber, and had both facemounted on 1/8" plexi. The Exhibition Fiber print did not turn out well at all (lots of orange peel effect), the glossy paper looked good. The folks at Finishing Concepts told me that anything other than a smooth glossy paper will not yield acceptable results. On the other hand the people at Laumont in NYC told me that they recommend Photo rag matte papers for face mounting. This totally contradicts my test prints and what finishing Concepts has told me. Supposedly, they are both using the same process (diasec/plexi mounts). Does anyone have any info on this? My next call is to Duggal in NYC. I have been printing on Hanemuhle Photo Rag. Laumont says that it is the best media for face mounting, yet many others say glossy media only. Any suggestions?


There are no Licensed Diasec producers in North America. If someone like Laumont states they use Diasec, they are incorrect. Ask them  "Do You have a Diasec License?". Laumont will say they use Diasec but if pushed, will state they do not have a Diasec license.

There are only about 9 Diasec license holders world wide. I am one of them. I have used other processes that state they are similar, or use a Seal type film, but they are not showing the same longevity as Diasec.
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Sven W

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Re: Photo Rag Media For Plexi Facemounting
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2011, 10:54:26 am »

MandyS,
Are you located somewhere in EU?
If you for some reason not want to show that here, can you please send me a personal message?

/Sven
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Photo Rag Media For Plexi Facemounting
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2011, 11:28:53 am »

I am one of them. I have used other processes that state they are similar, or use a Seal type film, but they are not showing the same longevity as Diasec.

The longevity of any Face mounting method including Diasec is right now an unknown factor as far as I know. About a year ago an independent research project has been finished on that subject but I have not seen a publication yet. The intro to that project (in Dutch) indicates various issues though.

quote:
>>Face-mounted foto’s ‘Face-mounted’ foto’s zijn direct op een stuk PMMA (polymethylmethacrylaat zoals Plexiglas® of Perspex®) geplakt en geven een diepteeffect dat in grote werken van bijvoorbeeld Andreas Gursky, Thomas Struth en Thomas Ruff te zien is. Behalve het visuele effect zou Plexiglas® de foto ook beschermen tegen veroudering. De praktijk leert echter anders. Zo wordt PMMA opgeplakt door middel van een soort siliconenkit en het azijnzuur dat tijdens het hardingsproces vrijkomt kan schadelijk zijn. Bovendien is PMMA zeer gevoelig voor krassen en vele schoonmaakmiddelen.
Gebaseerd op internationale samenwerking wordt in dit project onderzoek gedaan naar technische en ethische problemen van het schoonmaken en restaureren van Plexiglas® zoals het verwijderen van stof, vingerafdrukken enkrassen zonder de leesbaarheid van de foto’s te veranderen op langere termijn. Het project heeft onder meer tot doel richtlijnen voor de behandeling, conservering en het tentoonstellen van face-mounted foto’s
op te stellen. Projectleider: Bill Wei Samenwerking met: Fotomuseum Nederland, Fotorestauratie Atelier Clara von Waldthausen, Metropolitan Museum of Art en MOMA<<


I'm curious. On what test method/research is your statement based and what is the longevity of a Diasec mounted C-print or inkjet print?


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

New: Spectral plots of +250 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm



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MandyS

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Re: Photo Rag Media For Plexi Facemounting
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2011, 06:32:01 am »

 I am based in Australia.

The question regarding longevity of DIasec process. This is interesting.  I work and speak with a lot of art conservators. They like to see actual proof of longevity. This is why the conservation industry is notoriously conservative in the materials they choose to use (pardon the pun).
I have seen several and own a Diasec mounted image that is nearly 40 years old as going well. (especially considering the state of photgraphic processes at the time). The whites are holding well also. Inkjet prints are not that old but I have seen some done 10 years ago and all is good with them. Inkjet prints have to be treated prior to mounting with Diasec but this is not a problem.

In the strict sense, Diasec is not a conservation method of mounting (to be considered conservation, the process must be completely reversible, which Diasec is not). However many major Public galleries in UK , USA and EU are only accepting Diasec mounted images for their collections. They will not accept face mounting with film products.
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Photo Rag Media For Plexi Facemounting
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2011, 11:13:43 am »

Stefan, thank you.

A long read, not just the URL :-)

The first report raises as many questions as it has answers it seems, still reading. One is the consistency in mounting methods and in production for the different companies that do the work.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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narikin

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Re: Photo Rag Media For Plexi Facemounting
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2011, 12:11:09 am »

I am based in Australia.

The question regarding longevity of DIasec process. This is interesting.  I work and speak with a lot of art conservators. They like to see actual proof of longevity. This is why the conservation industry is notoriously conservative in the materials they choose to use (pardon the pun).
I have seen several and own a Diasec mounted image that is nearly 40 years old as going well. (especially considering the state of photgraphic processes at the time). The whites are holding well also. Inkjet prints are not that old but I have seen some done 10 years ago and all is good with them. Inkjet prints have to be treated prior to mounting with Diasec but this is not a problem.

In the strict sense, Diasec is not a conservation method of mounting (to be considered conservation, the process must be completely reversible, which Diasec is not). However many major Public galleries in UK , USA and EU are only accepting Diasec mounted images for their collections. They will not accept face mounting with film products.


I saw some Gursky's from 1990's last week, and they looked dreadfully yellowed.  Probably as much to do with the crappy Kodak paper Grieger uses as anything, but hard to separate mounting.

Yes Laumont does not to 'Diasec' silicone, they do their own version with silicone, and it seems to work quite well, right name or not.
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Photo Rag Media For Plexi Facemounting
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2011, 11:02:51 am »

Ask Wilcovak in The Netherlands. That is the address I mentioned.



met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

New: Spectral plots of +250 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
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