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Author Topic: Have Phase One screwed up? [resumed]  (Read 7842 times)

ondebanks

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Have Phase One screwed up? [resumed]
« on: January 27, 2011, 08:34:09 am »

The original thread has been locked, apparently because 2 of our leadership figures couldn't get on with each other and went off on a completely tangential slapgfight.

Rather unfair on everyone else - why are we not allowed to contribute to the discussion of the original topic?
So I'm re-opening it here.

"Have Phase One screwed up?"

No - in the sense that they have indeed released a greatly improved product in the IQ backs.

But Yes - in that they have picked the wrong partner for their CCDs. They seem firmly wedded to DALSA now, and haven't released a Kodak-sensored back in several years. Result: it's all "Sensor+" and no "XPose+".

So not one of these new $20,000+ backs can expose longer than 1 minute. Think about that! Every film camera I ever owned had unlimited exposure. Every DSLR and EVIL/hybrid out there can go for minutes at least, with excellent quality. Daguerre himself used long exposures - he had to, to capture any image - but the point is, he could!

What is photography? In its essence, it is the capture of light by the control of exposure. How the hell did we end up going backwards in exposure capability? It's 2011. And with these expensive new products, we cannot expose as long as they could in 1837, and every year since. There is something terribly wrong in that.

Ray

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Doug Peterson

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Re: Have Phase One screwed up? [resumed]
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2011, 08:54:35 am »

The P45+ is still a new and current product.

And still the best long exposure back in the world.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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Ed Jack

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Re: Have Phase One screwed up? [resumed]
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2011, 09:03:47 am »

The P45+ is still a new and current product.

And still the best long exposure back in the world.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)

I think his point is that Phase one could develop a long exposure back from the 50 or 60MP Kodak sensor with little difficulty. I mean Hasselblad don't have exclusive access to this chip to they ?

Ed
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design_freak

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Re: Have Phase One screwed up? [resumed]
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2011, 09:16:03 am »

The P45+ is still a new and current product.

And still the best long exposure back in the world.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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Hi Doug,

It seems to me that a colleague is about something else. Why today does not produce cameras that limit us. We design new hardware, add bells and whistles, add more megapixels, but we do not think about the basic needs of the photographer. Nobody says this is an easy goal to achieve, perhaps even at the present time impossible to achieve. As you can see, most professionals would satisfy without a trendy touch screen, would satisfy the 60 million pixels but with one hour exposure. And it would be a feature that would speak for the hardware.

Design Freak
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Best regards,
DF

ChristopherBarrett

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Re: Have Phase One screwed up? [resumed]
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2011, 09:50:44 am »

Personally I have a hard time believing any "professionals" have a real need of a 1 hour exposure.  I shoot interior architecture which has, arguably, a greater need for long exposures than any other niche of professional photography.  I almost never need to expose longer than 3 seconds with my P65.  Even before digital, my longest exposures were maybe a minute and half and that was on 50 speed film at f/32 with 3 stops of filtration on camera.

What the Dalsa chip gives me is the ability to shoot with Zero latency (meaning no wakeup cable) which I will gladly give up long exposures for.

Sure, for fine art work, night shooting, longer exposures would be nice but I can't imagine it being beneficial to any Pro's workflow.

Personally I dig all the updates Phase One has made.  It's clear that they have been listening to all of us here as many of the new features directly answer the requests of many posts.  I don't really have a need for 80mp, but the ability to make huge prints for personal work is exciting.  It seems what upsets people more than anything else are the prices.  I just don't get it.  These things (while expensive) cost less than I used to spend on Film, Processing and Polaroids in a year.  In 12 months my P65+ paid for itself and now it actually makes me money.  We're really lucky nowadays, there are so many great products out there for photographers.  If these backs don't fit your needs or workflow then there is another tool that probably will.

CB

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ndevlin

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Re: Have Phase One screwed up? [resumed]
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2011, 09:55:33 am »

"Have Phase One screwed up?"

[But Yes - in that they have picked the wrong partner for their CCDs. They seem firmly wedded to DALSA now, and haven't released a Kodak-sensored back in several years. Result: it's all "Sensor+" and no "XPose+".

Dude, with all due respect, you're one of three people on earth who gives a rat's ass about exposures over 1 minute.  ;)  Buy a P45+.  You don't need the 60-80MPs since things will be moving (presumably the attraction of the effect a la Michael Kenna). So get the rez you need, in a cheaper used back, with the chip you like. What's the issue?

Or try the 645D. It seems to do exposures as long as you leave it open on Bulb. But then it does an equal dark-frame exposure subtraction, so the process is painfully slow (which is why neither I, nor anyoen I know, has bothered to try it.  When it's -20C below at night, I ain't standing out there for 20 minutes x2.  

See if you can get your local dealer to lend you one for a night and let us know.  

- N.

Not sure why you have this hate-on for Dalsa. A lot of people really like their chip and, as noted above, it offers some real advantages.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 10:03:16 am by ndevlin »
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Nick Devlin   @onelittlecamera        ww

uaiomex

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Re: Have Phase One screwed up? [resumed]
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2011, 12:08:50 pm »

4
 :D

Dude, with all due respect, you're one of three people on earth who gives a rat's ass about exposures over 1 minute.  ;)  Buy a P45+.  You don't need the 60-80MPs since things will be moving (presumably the attraction of the effect a la Michael Kenna). So get the rez you need, in a cheaper used back, with the chip you like. What's the issue?

Or try the 645D. It seems to do exposures as long as you leave it open on Bulb. But then it does an equal dark-frame exposure subtraction, so the process is painfully slow (which is why neither I, nor anyoen I know, has bothered to try it.  When it's -20C below at night, I ain't standing out there for 20 minutes x2.  

See if you can get your local dealer to lend you one for a night and let us know.  

- N.

Not sure why you have this hate-on for Dalsa. A lot of people really like their chip and, as noted above, it offers some real advantages.
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free1000

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Re: Have Phase One screwed up? [resumed]
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2011, 01:15:11 pm »

I'm often asked to make 'Night Shots' of architecture and of course that means shooting in the 'magic 15' after dusk. 

I find that my Aptus 75 just doesn't cut the mustard for this. Although it *can* expose for 30 seconds, the quality is too poor. I would indeed like the option to shoot for a couple of minutes with a back. And of course, if I could use a five minute exposure the ability to erase pedestrians with their appalling plastic carrier bags might save a bit of retouching!
 
As a result I often find its better to just use a DSLR, but its a bit of a shame to leave the A75 nestling in its bag.

So I agree with the principle that its a bit of a limitation for these backs. By the way I love my A75 despite its shortcomings.
   
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ChristopherBarrett

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Re: Have Phase One screwed up? [resumed]
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2011, 01:57:05 pm »

Really?  My dusk exteriors are never more than 9 seconds.  Any longer and the interiors blow out.  My sweet spot is usually around 5 seconds at F/11.

Are you adding ND filters?

-Curious
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Dennis Carbo

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Re: Have Phase One screwed up? [resumed]
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2011, 02:08:29 pm »

I shoot quite a few Dusk shots with a Sinar 54M usually F16 and iso40  and end up with 8-15 sec exposures.  I have done 32 sec exposures on occasion and find little if any noise even at 32 sec..I know with the earlier versions of Sinar Capture Shop I had to manually "set the Black point" for longer exposures or the images were awful noisey.  Now it does it automatically so never a problem. I am not familiar with the APTUS 75 but is there a setting or procedure similar that you may be missing ? What ISO are you shooting at ?

I do get huge banding and noise if I do long exposures at ISO 200 - But hey...the back is from early 2004 !  so I cant complain ;D
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ndevlin

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Re: Have Phase One screwed up? [resumed]
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2011, 02:10:54 pm »

Ray,

 The more I think about this, the more I wonder why you wouldn't be better off using a 4x5 with film. If you are routinely shooting exposures in the 30 minute-plus range, you will shoot very few frames, and can't exactly "chimp" for exposure, etc. If you nailed your reciprocity tables with your film of choice, you could enjoy the quality of 4x5 and the benefits of movements, etc.

Also, since you wouldn't have to wait through dark-frame subtraction, you could, ironically, shoot twice as much as with digital.

Just a thought.

 -N.
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Nick Devlin   @onelittlecamera        ww

carboat

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Re: Have Phase One screwed up? [resumed]
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2011, 02:14:59 pm »

"Dude, with all due respect" ... seems a bit disrespectful

I guess I am the 4th who cares about exposure > 1 minute (up to 10min would be nice). Also funny how this was such the big marketing pitch when P1 was using Kodak and were pushing Xpose+. Now it's about hi-ISO via lower resolution when P1 has Dalsa Sensor+. At the price for this kit versatility seems a reasonable goal, be it for night shots or fine art work. As a tech camera user though, the new backs add many new groundbreaking functions and make TS lens and close focusing in general a reality. Not drinking the Koolaid but I do see a 180 2-3 years out when the next great thing is released.
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ChristopherBarrett

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Re: Have Phase One screwed up? [resumed]
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2011, 03:04:45 pm »

Heh... I'll give you that.  Long exposures was totally a big part of Phase's marketing verbage until the P65+ came along.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Have Phase One screwed up? [resumed]
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2011, 03:45:46 pm »

Hi,

Just a few comments...

Regarding the price, if they find customers paying for the back than Phase earns some well deserved money. If he customers are not willing to pay the price there are other options. I don't think that Phase One is in the charity business, but nor is the competition.

Regarding long exposure capacity it's something nice to have, but it may be that MF digital may not be he optimum coice for low light work anyway. I guess that the wast majority of Phase owners don't buy thir cameras primarily for low light work or very long exposures.

DALSa sensors may have other benefits, like less color cast. There are many other factors. It may just be possible that DALSA sensors may have more even quality. At Phase One the backs are essentially assembled before going trough final testing. If the sensor doesn't pass the back needs to be rebuild. Would for instance 80% percent of the Kodak sensors pass but 90% percent of the Dalsa sensors it would have a major benefit for Phase.

Best regards
Erik



The original thread has been locked, apparently because 2 of our leadership figures couldn't get on with each other and went off on a completely tangential slapgfight.

Rather unfair on everyone else - why are we not allowed to contribute to the discussion of the original topic?
So I'm re-opening it here.

"Have Phase One screwed up?"

No - in the sense that they have indeed released a greatly improved product in the IQ backs.

But Yes - in that they have picked the wrong partner for their CCDs. They seem firmly wedded to DALSA now, and haven't released a Kodak-sensored back in several years. Result: it's all "Sensor+" and no "XPose+".

So not one of these new $20,000+ backs can expose longer than 1 minute. Think about that! Every film camera I ever owned had unlimited exposure. Every DSLR and EVIL/hybrid out there can go for minutes at least, with excellent quality. Daguerre himself used long exposures - he had to, to capture any image - but the point is, he could!

What is photography? In its essence, it is the capture of light by the control of exposure. How the hell did we end up going backwards in exposure capability? It's 2011. And with these expensive new products, we cannot expose as long as they could in 1837, and every year since. There is something terribly wrong in that.

Ray


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Erik Kaffehr
 

adammork

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Re: Have Phase One screwed up? [resumed]
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2011, 03:48:56 pm »

Really?  My dusk exteriors are never more than 9 seconds.  Any longer and the interiors blow out.  My sweet spot is usually around 5 seconds at F/11.

Are you adding ND filters?

-Curious

I'm often around 15-30 sec for my dusk images, f/11 on an aptus 75 - no filters

/adam
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tesfoto

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Re: Have Phase One screwed up? [resumed]
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2011, 04:51:54 pm »

Really?  My dusk exteriors are never more than 9 seconds.  Any longer and the interiors blow out.  My sweet spot is usually around 5 seconds at F/11.

Are you adding ND filters?

-Curious

Chris, I had a look at your website, first thing I did was looking under your personal work.

I really like your Exit Americana series a lot, heck you should be doing much more of this work IMO, really good.
However it seems like a lot longer than 9 seconds at F/11 - perhaps it was the old film days ?

Cheers, T



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ChristopherBarrett

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Re: Have Phase One screwed up? [resumed]
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2011, 05:53:31 pm »

Touché, man.  LoL.  But yes, most of that work was shot on 6x12 color neg with exposures up around 7 minutes.  3 or 4 of those were done with a P45+ stitched.  So yeah, I guess if I wanted to continue that series I would have to buy a P45+... or just keep shooting neg and dust off the drum scanner.

I do need to get back to that work at some point, but right now all my extra-curricular activities are going into filmmaking.

Thanks for the compliment,
CB
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Have Phase One screwed up? [resumed]
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2011, 07:12:16 pm »

It's a pretty simple equation to me -

There are clearly some advantages that Phase One feels Dalsa offers that Kodak does not. One of them is not long exposure ability. There is no sensor that ticks off every box. If the P+ backs had never been developed, the omission wouldn't be noticed as much, except in comparison to DSLR long exposure.

There is no reason that Phase One cannot use Kodak sensors and continue to offer a product with extreme long exposure capability. They choose not to, and clearly for a reason. If it made sense to continue with Kodak, they would. It's unfortunate and I don't mean to sound trite at all, but that is the reality. It doesn't have anything to do with Phase One not being able to buy Kodak sensors, etc.

Generally, my perception is that all digital back manufacturers have the option of working with either Dalsa or Kodak (and sometimes both at the same time, as both Hasselblad and Phase One currently do). It only takes money and I'm sure both Dalsa and Kodak will be willing partners.


Steve Hendrix


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Peter Devos

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Re: Have Phase One screwed up? [resumed]
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2011, 03:31:34 am »

.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 04:13:19 am by Peter Devos »
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buckshot

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Re: Have Phase One screwed up? [resumed]
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2011, 04:31:12 am »

Sure, for fine art work, night shooting, longer exposures would be nice but I can't imagine it being beneficial to any Pro's workflow.

It's more than beneficial - absolutely necessary in some instances. Using a Lee Big Stopper (10 stop ND) to blur the ocean and sky, combined with ISO 50, and a 2 stop center filter, I regularly have exposure times in the 10 - 20 minute range (sometimes even longer). For this kind of work, the P45+ I use is still - even with the release of the IQ backs - my MFDB of choice.

If I made my living in the fairly (lighting wise) controlled world of product, advertising, fashion, architecture etc. I'd be really looking at these new backs in earnest, but until Phase puts the chip from the P45+ in one of these new bodies, no thanks.
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