Have Phase One screwed up?

[David Watson]

This may be running against the flow and will almost certainly be heresy on this forum but I really think that Phase One would have been much better spending their money on producing a decent camera and reducing the cost of their existing very good range of backs.  Other than high net worth individuals and gadget freaks who needs to spend $40k on yet more pixels?  Sure the screen is nice and so on  but what we really wanted was proper live view, better weather sealing (okay I accept it has some) and - oh yes- a sub $20k price for a 60mp back.

My current back is 50MP and with stitching I often end up with TIFF's of 1GB or more - the last thing I need is yet more of the little blighters! (pixels that is).  

I guess those nice people at Phase, rather like those exotic sports car makers mentioned above, are just in love with horse power - but when you go to work you want something that is easy to use, does the job, is reliable and when it goes wrong it can be quickly and economically fixed.  For my money Hasselblad (and Canon and Nikon) do that very well.

Emperor's new clothes? I think so!

[Erick Boileau]

+1000

[EricWHiss]

Well the new screen isn't just a screen, its really improved usability and workflow plus a great screen.  To me that's worth a premium.  That said however I can't use it at all since its not offered on my camera platform.  I still am dumbfounded over why they can't get together with Rollei on the Hy6 or 6008AF platforms, especially now that they own Leaf.   

[TMARK]

David, I'm not a brand defender or fan boy.  (I own Leaf backs, by the way.  I used to own a P30+.)  If you read the spec sheet you'll see this is an advance on usability, everything I wanted two years ago when the P65 came out.  Then it was only megapixels.  These backs are an advance, just late to the party.  They are weather sealed, the touch screen is nice, and the screen is something you can show an AD.  It has a 3fps live view on the back.  These are great features, well worth the added $3k over list. 

It seems the gripes are that Phase isn't selling the P65 for $14,000.

As to camera, well that is why I went with Leaf, so I could use a dead adapter with my RZ's.  No wakeup cable required.  They really should make a new RZ.

[Schewe]

This may be running against the flow and will almost certainly be heresy on this forum but I really think that Phase One would have been much better spending their money on producing a decent camera and reducing the cost of their existing very good range of backs.

The lead time for R&D for both sensors and cameras is measured in years so you gotta expect these new sensors have been in development for a while. The original investment in the development kinda dictates you either continue it or kill it. Leaf had already had the Aptus 12 in dev for a while and Phase, to their credit kept it alive. So the new sensors are the current state of the art. The old sensors are still available though.

As for all new cameras, that's another thing that takes a lot of time. The relationship of Mamiya and Phase is relatively new so designing and building a new camera from the ground up ain't gonna happen overnight. The 645DF was a good upgrade of the previous Mamiya model. But to develop a whole new camera is a considerably larger project. Which I suspect they are working on.

[David Watson]

It seems the gripes are that Phase isn't selling the P65 for $14,000.

As to camera, well that is why I went with Leaf, so I could use a dead adapter with my RZ's.  No wakeup cable required.  They really should make a new RZ.

I think gripe is the wrong word.  All I am trying to say is that what the market would want is a better (much better) camera, real (like the D3X) Live View and real weather sealing (again like the D3X etc) and all of this at a price similar or just a bit higher than the new Pentax.  If I was in the hot seat at Phase One I would have put every ounce of energy into a camera body that challenged Hasselblad and reinforced Phase One's strong market position with their backs.  Whilst there are worthwhile benefits on the new backs (and BTW that will be a headache for Hasselblad who are still struggling to deliver H4D-60's) they are married to an improving but still poor camera body.

I understand Geoff's point about development lead times but there are or were short cuts.  The Rollei product line could have been one.

[Guy Mancuso]

The lead time for R&D for both sensors and cameras is measured in years so you gotta expect these new sensors have been in development for a while. The original investment in the development kinda dictates you either continue it or kill it. Leaf had already had the Aptus 12 in dev for a while and Phase, to their credit kept it alive. So the new sensors are the current state of the art. The old sensors are still available though.

As for all new cameras, that's another thing that takes a lot of time. The relationship of Mamiya and Phase is relatively new so designing and building a new camera from the ground up ain't gonna happen overnight. The 645DF was a good upgrade of the previous Mamiya model. But to develop a whole new camera is a considerably larger project. Which I suspect they are working on.

Totally agree and who is to say they are not working on it at this very minute. But I agree here making a new body takes a lot of R&D and time. I would say if they had a weak point it is this film based body but the DF is a major improvement in my mind over the previous versions which frankly where not easy to work with( shutter lag killed me). I kind of actually like the DF but would love to see something new for sure. But in all honesty between software, back and lenses they are tough to beat. This new back has been what everyone screamed for and now it is here. I like these choices to make be it I buy it or not it is available to me.

[Christopher]

No

[eronald]

I agree - if Phase absorbed $2000 of camera costs per back sold they could provide a decent body, and that would have been a real -and cheap- move forward.
Edmund

[Gigi]

What's great about this are the improvements make a good deal of sense.... in fact, long overdue. The Phase back "chassis" has long been in need of an upgrade, and its about time they did that. So welcome, yes.

What's disappointing is that they didn't take this opportunity to rethink their approach to the marketplace in any fundamental way - "its our upgraded back, here's our enhanced pricing" is the mantra.

That there is need for a rethink of the MFDB is (IMHO) obvious. But then again, their position is on top of a small, but obviously workable business niche. So maybe they don't see much need to change things. Too bad - a 33 MP back, with these features at $12-15k would be a good thing to shake up the marketplace....

They seem to have recognized some of this with their provocative trade-in proposition, the details which are still to come forward. Still, I wish they had pushed some of the other buttons - like platform flexibility (long overdue), better camera body, rotation.  

[David Watson]

But I agree here making a new body takes a lot of R&D and time. I would say if they had a weak point it is this film based body but the DF is a major improvement in my mind over the previous versions which frankly where not easy to work with( shutter lag killed me). I kind of actually like the DF but would love to see something new for sure. But in all honesty between software, back and lenses they are tough to beat. This new back has been what everyone screamed for and now it is here. I like these choices to make be it I buy it or not it is available to me.

No problem agreeing with your comments about the back.  No question that P1 are a class act in this area but cannot agree about the lenses or the camera body.  I accept that the three (only three?) Schneider lenses are first class but what about the rest. IMO taken as a whole the Hasselblad leaf shutter lenses (all eleven - yes eleven) taken as a whole beat the pants of the aggregate P1 offering. Turning to the camera - even the new body sucks compared with the H4D - and its wonderful and unique True Focus ability. BTW why hasn't anyone mentioned the word "camera" or here's another word "system" - we have all been too busy talking about the word "back".  The Hasselblad system may have its faults but it is a complete and effective system.  

It would be nice if this forum and yours for that matter were a little less partisan and were a little more open to consideration of the benefits of both cameras, backs and lenses in the interests of all your readers.  

[eronald]

It would be nice if this forum and yours for that matter were a little less partisan and were a little more open to consideration of the benefits of both cameras, backs and lenses in the interests of all your readers.  

Actually, I don't think Guy is especially craven, he is just a trifle over-enthusiastic for every brand he uses. And the rest of us chickens here have mostly paid for our Phase gear and are well aware of its superb image quality and clunky ergonomics. Thing is, Hassy  locked us out of their system with the H3, remember that? and so lost the ability to demonstrate their superiority to us easily by allowing us to clip our existing Phase H-compatible backs to their newer bodies.

Hassy: locked down, nice camera.
Phase: multi-platform, clunky own camera.

Did I say "A plague on both their houses" yet, today?  
Edmund

[David Watson]

Actually, I don't think Guy is especially craven, he is just a trifle over-enthusiastic for every brand he uses. And the rest of us chickens here have mostly paid for our Phase gear and are well aware of its superb image quality and clunky ergonomics. Thing is, Hassy  locked us out of their system with the H3, remember that? and so lost the ability to demonstrate their superiority to us easily by allowing us to clip our existing Phase H-compatible backs to their newer bodies.

Hassy: locked down, nice camera.
Phase: multi-platform, clunky own camera.

Did I say "A plague on both their houses" yet, today?  
Edmund

Nice religious overtone there Edmund.  Speaking of which, if I were the god of photography I would force these two into a room, lock the door and not let them out until they had agreed to a marriage, distilled their respective products into one, achieved an economy of scale and offered us a Phassy at a Pentax price. Dream on.
 
 

[Guy Mancuso]

Actually, I don't think Guy is especially craven, he is just a trifle over-enthusiastic for every brand he uses. And the rest of us chickens here have mostly paid for our Phase gear and are well aware of its superb image quality and clunky ergonomics. Thing is, Hassy  locked us out of their system with the H3, remember that? and so lost the ability to demonstrate their superiority to us easily by allowing us to clip our existing Phase compatible backs to their bodies.

Edmund

Well guys I paid my money ( I have every receipt and bank statement that says that I did )for a system  that I do like a lot there is nothing partisan about it. It works I may not have 11 great lenses with a limit of 1/800 of a second but I have 8 that are a limit of 1/4000 of a second that are great, if you would like me to name them than just look in my bag. Everyone has a dog or two in there system and i crucified the ones that are and they are not in my bag. Sorry Edmund over enthusiastic is total BS and you know it and I resent that comment and the innuendo that goes with it.

I obviously like there system or I would have bought something else instead. I have said it a million times if I did not go Phase i would have gone Hassy. But end of day i want to shoot MF. You have any other options that maybe better that I completely missed or have not shot or reviewed.

[michael]

It took Hasselblad six years to design the H series with the assistance of Fuji and Phase One.

It took Rollei and F&H some four+ years to design the Hy6 with the assistance of Sinar and Leaf.

Before rushing off in all directions with opinions of what Phase should or shouldn't do, consider that the design and engineering of a new camera platform is a major undertaking, even for multi-billion dollar conglomerates like Canon and Nikon. Most offerings from these companies are simply rehashes of existing designs, with real new ones only every 5 – 7 years apart.

Look how long it took Pentax to bring the 645D to fruition. 6 years?

So, while we can grip about what should be, in the real world the development of a new camera system is a seriously non-trivial matter. Phase has publicly stated that they have a new system coming, and if they could magically make it appear you can bet they would. But I wouldn't count on it for a while yet.

Michael

[David Watson]

It took Hasselblad six years to design the H series with the assistance of Fuji and Phase One.

It took Rollei and F&H some four+ years to design the Hy6 with the assistance of Sinar and Leaf.

Before rushing off in all directions with opinions of what Phase should or shouldn't do, consider that the design and engineering of a new camera platform is a major undertaking, even for multi-billion dollar conglomerates like Canon and Nikon. Most offerings from these companies are simply rehashes of existing designs, with real new ones only every 5 – 7 years apart.

Look how long it took Pentax to bring the 645D to fruition. 6 years?

So, while we can grip about what should be, in the real world the development of a new camera system is a seriously non-trivial matter. Phase has publicly stated that they have a new system coming, and if they could magically make it appear you can bet they would. But I wouldn't count on it for a while yet.

Michael

Thank you Michael - useful and interesting facts.  It would be good for both companies if Hasselblad polished up their digital backs a little (or a lot) at the same time as P1 got their new camera out.  Perhaps truly enhanced competition with both products excelling in all respects would have the effect of expanding the market and bringing the price down.  One can dream.
 

[David Watson]

It took Hasselblad six years to design the H series with the assistance of Fuji and Phase One.

It took Rollei and F&H some four+ years to design the Hy6 with the assistance of Sinar and Leaf.

Before rushing off in all directions with opinions of what Phase should or shouldn't do, consider that the design and engineering of a new camera platform is a major undertaking, even for multi-billion dollar conglomerates like Canon and Nikon. Most offerings from these companies are simply rehashes of existing designs, with real new ones only every 5 – 7 years apart.

Look how long it took Pentax to bring the 645D to fruition. 6 years?

So, while we can grip about what should be, in the real world the development of a new camera system is a seriously non-trivial matter. Phase has publicly stated that they have a new system coming, and if they could magically make it appear you can bet they would. But I wouldn't count on it for a while yet.

Michael

Michael

Can I just check one statement you have made.  Did Phase One (a digital back manufacturer of no great antiquity) really help Hasselblad design the H series?  I don't think so.  They may have provided insight into the development of a digital back but the Hasselblad company and Fuji have a wealth of experience and ability in the design and development of camera systems (i.e. not just digital backs) and would have little need of any additional help from P1 in this area.  Whilst I readily accept P1's superiority in their chosen field of expertise (i.e. digital backs) I am sorry but you must accept that the H4D is streets ahead of the competition, and particularly Mamiya/P1, as a MF system camera.  True Focus is a genuine and really useful innovation for many of the professional photographers using this equipment.  That alone would persuade me to buy Hasselblad in favour of P1 - better backs notwithstanding.

What would be really great would be to get a bunch of pros (who all use 35mm and not MF) in a studio situation and let them loose with both systems and then publish the results.
 

[Guy Mancuso]

David there is never one system that is dead perfect and they all have a weakness somewhere. Honestly there is not a Phase shooter that would say we could not use a new body , not one. We all accepted it when we bought in for other reasons we like the system. Hassy has there issues as well and i am not going to sit here and name them, there is no point. Hassy shooters accepted them when they bought in also. There is always a compromise somewhere in any system including any 35mm system out there. I frankly will never buy a canon again but I see no reason to go over to the canon forum and tell them that and my reasons why. Why bother, people will buy what they think will be the best for them or maybe even by lower pricing. If something was perfect we would have ONE OEM out there and no choices. I'm all for choices and options i can maybe get my hands on. Going back to your earlier comment. Honestly do you really think Phase shooters believe they only have 3 decent lenses when we know that is not the case. I have some really nice glass from that cursed name Mamiya even myself that are killer good and if I did not have good lenses I would be long gone by now and into something else. Lets give some credit here besides this sucks and that sucks. We all are here making expensive choices that we believe is best for ourselves and our needs , nothing else matters.

[David Watson]

David there is never one system that is dead perfect and they all have a weakness somewhere. Honestly there is not a Phase shooter that would say we could not use a new body , not one. We all accepted it when we bought in for other reasons we like the system. Hassy has there issues as well and i am not going to sit here and name them, there is no point. Hassy shooters accepted them when they bought in also. There is always a compromise somewhere in any system including any 35mm system out there. I frankly will never buy a canon again but I see no reason to go over to the canon forum and tell them that and my reasons why. Why bother, people will buy what they think will be the best for them or maybe even by lower pricing. If something was perfect we would have ONE OEM out there and no choices. I'm all for choices and options i can maybe get my hands on. Going back to your earlier comment. Honestly do you really think Phase shooters believe they only have 3 decent lenses when we know that is not the case. I have some really nice glass from that cursed name Mamiya even myself that are killer good and if I did not have good lenses I would be long gone by now and into something else. Lets give some credit here besides this sucks and that sucks. We all are here making expensive choices that we believe is best for ourselves and our needs , nothing else matters.

Very true and thank you for the extensive response.  I guess my fundamental point is that these forums are "opinion formers" and not marketing platforms for any one company.  Both you and Michael have large followings and, rightly or wrongly, you are both believed to be partisan in favour of P1.  In your shoes I would be encouraging Hasselblad to stand up fair and square to the competition and be given a fair and balanced hearing.  If they fail to attend or fail to participate then that is one thing and I have to say that they are not great communicators.  But and it is a big but there is a huge installed international user base of H equipment that dwarfs P1 and they deserve to hear a more balanced view.  The days are gone when you and Michael can treat your forums as personal soapboxes IMO.  You are both too important, successful and well followed to be other than scrupulously fair about your reporting.  You may say that you disagree and that is your right but I think you ought to be bigger than that and certainly bigger than your own personal opinions.

For what its worth I think that the P1 back is a sensational product but it is not married to a sensational system.  The Hasselblad is a sensational system (product, service and support globally).  They should be working together but the cake needs to be more equitably distributed than P1 may like if that were to happen.
 

[eronald]

I think at the beginning everyone was playing nice, Phase One, Imacon, Hasselblad, Leaf, Sinar etc and then they decided lock-in was better to interoperability, in particular Leaf/Kodak/Sinar bless-them decided to lock out Phase, and Hasselblad decided to lock out everybody else, and Leica who had bought Sinar at one point went their own way, with Zeiss Jena or whatever they're called now still vaguely lurking in the background with their huge expertise, and Fuji waiting to take over Hassy when they officially proclaim film is dead.


Edmund

Michael

Can I just check one statement you have made.  Did Phase One (a digital back manufacturer of no great antiquity) really help Hasselblad design the H series?  I don't think so.  They may have provided insight into the development of a digital back but the Hasselblad company and Fuji have a wealth of experience and ability in the design and development of camera systems (i.e. not just digital backs) and would have little need of any additional help from P1 in this area.  Whilst I readily accept P1's superiority in their chosen field of expertise (i.e. digital backs) I am sorry but you must accept that the H4D is streets ahead of the competition, and particularly Mamiya/P1, as a MF system camera.  True Focus is a genuine and really useful innovation for many of the professional photographers using this equipment.  That alone would persuade me to buy Hasselblad in favour of P1 - better backs notwithstanding.

What would be really great would be to get a bunch of pros (who all use 35mm and not MF) in a studio situation and let them loose with both systems and then publish the results.