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Author Topic: Phase One 80MP USB3.0 back AND A LARGE SCREEN!!!!  (Read 9866 times)

jing q

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Christopher

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Re: Phase One 80MP USB3.0 back AND A LARGE SCREEN!!!!
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2011, 04:03:00 am »

See topic below. ;)
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jing q

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Re: Phase One 80MP USB3.0 back AND A LARGE SCREEN!!!!
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2011, 04:05:02 am »

I think my topic title is more captivating.
;)
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jing q

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Re: Phase One 80MP USB3.0 back AND A LARGE SCREEN!!!!
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2011, 04:07:50 am »

the only laptops I know with USB3.0 are from ASUS

also hopefully this will force improvements from hasselblad
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Anders_HK

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Re: Phase One 80MP USB3.0 back AND A LARGE SCREEN!!!!
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2011, 04:11:45 am »

FINALLY A DIGITAL BACK WITH A LARGE SCREEN


Naaaah  8).  It is a copy of a LEAF back and some filing done to it to make a more simple shape + cut lower part off from the Leaf's display  ;D
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design_freak

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Re: Phase One 80MP USB3.0 back AND A LARGE SCREEN!!!!
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2011, 04:39:10 am »

the only laptops I know with USB3.0 are from ASUS

also hopefully this will force improvements from hasselblad


USB3 ok, maybe ...
Light Peak will be improvement !!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_Peak

http://gizmodo.com/5681712/apple-foregoing-usb-30-for-light-peak-in-early-2011


Best regards,
Design Freak
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Best regards,
DF

uaiomex

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Re: Phase One 80MP USB3.0 back AND A LARGE SCREEN!!!!
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2011, 11:29:50 am »

Possible sort of LiveView?, One minute exposures?, Crop sensors? Still $40k?  It's 2011 gentlemen!
I'm dizzy with such "advancements". On top of that I can't understand why P1 switched to Dalsa sensors. They lost their only real advantage over Hasselblad.
All the fanfare announcement/embargo for such "news" it's ridiculous. I think P1 made the most important scientific breakthrough in history: They sent us all back one decade by bending the space!
Eduardo 
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mhecker*

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Re: Phase One 80MP USB3.0 back AND A LARGE SCREEN!!!!
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2011, 03:03:06 pm »

I've shot my 40MP Pentax 645D for about one week now.
I have shot a borrowed H3D-39ii and a Phase One P45+ on a Phamiya body in recent times.

IMO the Pentax IQ is the equal of these other two setups at ISO 200 and under.
It looks to be considerably cleaner at ISO 400 and above.

Its optical viewfinder is way better than the Phamiya and at least the equal of the Hasselblad.

Its autofocus is light years ahead of the other two and equals my Canon 7D on static subjects at both close and far distances.

Its LCD screen and ergonomics are also way better from where I sit.

Its street price is $10K now and will be more like $9K by years end.

If Pentax doesn't blow it by not being able to produce new high quality glass, IMO they will be the major player in the MF digital market by the years end.   Hasselblad and Phase will be left to fight for the minority share of the market and the latest release of products might be there last.

If I were in the MF sales business I might want to become a Pentax 645D rep as soon as possible.

Just my 2 cents worth.  ;)

« Last Edit: January 24, 2011, 03:04:42 pm by mhecker* »
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Phase One 80MP USB3.0 back AND A LARGE SCREEN!!!!
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2011, 03:16:57 pm »

I've shot my 40MP Pentax 645D for about one week now.
I have shot a borrowed H3D-39ii and a Phase One P45+ on a Phamiya body in recent times.

IMO the Pentax IQ is the equal of these other two setups at ISO 200 and under.
It looks to be considerably cleaner at ISO 400 and above.

Its optical viewfinder is way better than the Phamiya and at least the equal of the Hasselblad.

Its autofocus is light years ahead of the other two and equals my Canon 7D on static subjects at both close and far distances.

Its LCD screen and ergonomics are also way better from where I sit.

Its street price is $10K now and will be more like $9K by years end.

If Pentax doesn't blow it by not being able to produce new high quality glass, IMO they will be the major player in the MF digital market by the years end.   Hasselblad and Phase will be left to fight for the minority share of the market and the latest release of products might be there last.

If I were in the MF sales business I might want to become a Pentax 645D rep as soon as possible.

Just my 2 cents worth.  ;)




I would like to be able to provide for my family, so no thank you to being a Pentax 645D rep.

You might do some more research on the medium format market to understand why your estimate of the market dominators is far from any plausible reality.


Steve Hendrix
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mhecker*

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Re: Phase One 80MP USB3.0 back AND A LARGE SCREEN!!!!
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2011, 03:41:12 pm »

Pentax says it is producing 500 units of the 645D per month.
I have never seen any reliable data on Hasselblad or Phase One's production.

Would you care to point me to a reliable source of data on that subject Steve.
If you would, I will gladly admit the error in my prediction if Pentax is not the largest producer of MF bodies per year by the spring of 2012.

They may well blow it, but then again they may well not.
If they don't IMO the MF digital market well be entering a new paradigm.

Time will tell...
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Phase One 80MP USB3.0 back AND A LARGE SCREEN!!!!
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2011, 03:57:52 pm »

Pentax says it is producing 500 units of the 645D per month.
I have never seen any reliable data on Hasselblad or Phase One's production.

Would you care to point me to a reliable source of data on that subject Steve.
If you would, I will gladly admit the error in my prediction if Pentax is not the largest producer of MF bodies per year by the spring of 2012.

They may well blow it, but then again they may well not.
If they don't IMO the MF digital market well be entering a new paradigm.

Time will tell...


I don't know if the figures from the manufacturer would be considered reliable figures, but in any case it is often all we have to go on and at times, not even that is offered. In any event, I am prepared to stand corrected (potentially). Pentax may indeed sell more 645D units than Phase One or Hasselblad by the end of the year. Even if that were true, at $10K per unit, by my rough calculations, Phase One would at least double their total annual revenues.

More importantly, I don't feel that Pentax is taking any significant market share from Phase One or Hasselblad. I have not had a single serious discussion with any of my clients considering a Phase One product about whether they should buy the Pentax 645D. Not one. Instead, I think Pentax is expanding the market, not cutting into it. And the market they are expanding into is the upper end DSLR market.


Steve Hendrix
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PierreVandevenne

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Re: Phase One 80MP USB3.0 back AND A LARGE SCREEN!!!!
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2011, 06:52:13 pm »

I don't know if the figures from the manufacturer would be considered reliable figures, but in any case it is often all we have to go on and at times, not even that is offered. In any event, I am prepared to stand corrected (potentially). Pentax may indeed sell more 645D units than Phase One or Hasselblad by the end of the year. Even if that were true, at $10K per unit, by my rough calculations, Phase One would at least double their total annual revenues.

In the case of Phase One, for a few DKK, you can obtain their balance sheet.

http://cvr.dk/Site/Forms/PublicService/DisplayCompany.aspx?cvrnr=17889699

No need for rough calculations and guesses.

Apparently, the 645D was above the 1D MK IV for a while in Japanese sales rankings.

Interesting times.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Phase One 80MP USB3.0 back AND A LARGE SCREEN!!!!
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2011, 01:01:00 am »

Hi,

Just a few comments...

I'd suggest that MF digital covers a lot of customer categories, you cannot just put all under the same hat.

- We have folks who shot 4x5" on film and migrated to MFDBs.
- We also have landscape shooter wanting more detail, but having a flexible camera
- We have the perfectionist shimming his MFDB to ultimate precision
- We have the commercial shooter with MFDB tethered to computer with AD hanging over his/her shoulder

Some cameras are more oriented to certain groups. Pentax has a tradition of building larger size SLRs, they did it with film and now they do it with digital. That's really DSLR handling with a larger sensor. Leica tries to do the same, but with exceptional lenses.

Interestingly, an MFDB can be used as a mirror less digital camera. The problem is the lack of live view. The new Phase backs have a functionality that may emulate live view. I don't know if that works.

I'd suggest that Steve is definitively right, the Pentax includes a new category of customers. How it affects the traditional MF market, that has to be seen. I'd also suggest that there is a surge in the market, because of a lot of 645 equipment around that suddenly got more useful because the P645D, but once those customers are satisfied Pentax also needs a lens line.

Best regards
Erik



Strange that Phase themselves had/has no interest to "expand" into that same market the 645D is now. Phase could have done it first and gained even more traction, maybe snuffing out the possibility for Pentax. I am not always convinced Phase headquarters thinks through it all. I personally think some arrogance blinds some major opportunity for Phase. Food for thought.

My comment on arrogance goes with my personal feelings about BMW, Mercedes, Leica and other premium brands in the EU, "who cares" is my feeling, "whoopdeedoo'. Those brands are boring at best to me. The very same brands too many people put on a pedestal. For some reason Phase thinks they are the equivalent. Just make the damn cameras and get over yourself. They are just cameras. Phase is just making the tools. I find nowadays premium has become so vanilla.

The worst slogan was BMW's "the ultimate driving machine". Pretty self centered. They learned and have moved away from that to something that inspires emotion (not to me, but their buyers I assume). I don't know if it's the language barrier or cultural differences, but Phase always comes across as cold, very robotic, not very human. Human is the new economy, meaning you listen to what customers want. A lot of photographers want the quality from MFDBs but find the price point just silly.

So we'll see how well Pentax does it. Hopefully with their success something rubs off onto Phase and others. Working photographers, single shooters with their own businesses, have little interest in spending $30K-60K for camera outfits.

My choice and I think majority of pro shooters agree with since the majority of pro shooters are not MFDB owners, is having good steady tech milestones at respectable price point, hence the success of Nikon, Canon and Even Sony DSLRs. But as so often happens, hobby shooters are an even larger bunch and seem to be listened to even more by all the companies of any sensor size. Wealthy hobbyists are probably the over 50% group for Phase now.

As a past MFDB owner, I just keep waiting for something that really gets me going. Honestly non of the MFDB makers have created the Viagra of digital backs or medium format digital. All the tech is there, but a leap is needed in concepts. bcooter is right, a mirrorless medium format digital, huge screen, endless menu options to placate all the shooters' needs, seems pretty desirable and simple.

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bradleygibson

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Re: Phase One 80MP USB3.0 back AND A LARGE SCREEN!!!!
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2011, 01:25:34 am »

Well put, guys.

To expand on what I think Steve was suggesting, I believe that the 40MP territory will be the top-end of small format before very long.  To my mind, Phase and Hasselblad are making strategic decisions to not go toe-to-toe with the Canon and Nikon freight trains.

We can debate that a Canon 40MP 36x24mm sensor will be no match for MF, and that the lenses won't compare either, until you begin to consider live view, high ISO, AF and stabilization...  And the fact that most of our customers aren't likely to notice the difference...

If I were in Phase's or Hasselblad's shoes I would innovate in spaces where the Canon/Nikon juggernauts *aren't*, which serves to highlight my product's USP.

This doesn't suggest that "it can't be done"--I think Pentax will make a very good go of it.  But as much as I like it, I will be interested to see how the Pentax 645D fares in terms of sales, in a world where a 1Ds Mark IV offers similar specs (at least on paper).
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MrSmith

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Re: Phase One 80MP USB3.0 back AND A LARGE SCREEN!!!!
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2011, 07:25:13 am »

i have to say i'm not impressed with phase's new offerings. (neither are the other photographers i spoke to yesterday)
apart from the new screens (that come on cheap dslr's) i see nothing that makes my job any easier or helps me achieve something i couldn't before. the warranty is a piss-take too imho.
recently a shoot for a banking client involved location images in warehouses/factories where we shot a 'canvas' on a p45 (1second exposure, 50asa) as lighting an area the size of a tennis court was not an option, the 2-3 people in the image were shot on a canon with long lens at 640 asa to drop into the image in PS.
If there was a back that gave usable results at 400-800 asa then we wouldn't have to do workarounds like this (and no sensor plus wouldn't help in this situation).

when will chip/back manufacturers stop the mpixel race and produce genuine usable 400-800 asa with a decent chip size?
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Guy Mancuso

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Re: Phase One 80MP USB3.0 back AND A LARGE SCREEN!!!!
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2011, 10:47:50 am »

i have to say i'm not impressed with phase's new offerings. (neither are the other photographers i spoke to yesterday)
apart from the new screens (that come on cheap dslr's) i see nothing that makes my job any easier or helps me achieve something i couldn't before. the warranty is a piss-take too imho.
recently a shoot for a banking client involved location images in warehouses/factories where we shot a 'canvas' on a p45 (1second exposure, 50asa) as lighting an area the size of a tennis court was not an option, the 2-3 people in the image were shot on a canon with long lens at 640 asa to drop into the image in PS.
If there was a back that gave usable results at 400-800 asa then we wouldn't have to do workarounds like this (and no sensor plus wouldn't help in this situation).

when will chip/back manufacturers stop the mpixel race and produce genuine usable 400-800 asa with a decent chip size?


Hate to interrupt the beat down here but have you actually shot a P40+ or P60+ at ISO 400 or 800. I own the P40+ and ISO full resolution is extremely good even at the defaults of C1. The ISO 800 could use some fine tuning with the noise control but again at default it is not bad at all. If you take a look here you will see at 100 percent crops what I mean.  Pay special attention to the bottom of the frame in the shadow of the wood and also the top right corner of the mirror frame and watch the detail . Sure it will decrease but it is very slight http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12243. This thread is over a year old and processed with a older version of C1 so maybe even better with Version 6 and have not tried it with these files. Need to scroll down a bit to get to the noise tests.

Now if you would like the raws from this noise test and see for yourself . I do have them posted as well for you to try here is a link to the raws along with the S2 files . Help yourself but please lets not guess at this stuff try it and see for yourself . If it is not what you are after than you learned something from it. Let me clarify I owned the P25+ and shot the P45+ many times they are not good at ISO400 period so yes i would agree with you totally. I have owned the P30+ which was much better at ISO 400 and also shot the P65 more times than I can count and it is pretty much identical to the P40+ since they use the same sensor they should match. Previous backs in Phase with the Kodak sensor except for the P30+ did not have anywhere the noise latitude as the new Dalsa sensor in the P40+ and P60+. Its at least  a stop better and that is a big underestimation I would personally say 2 stops. Now also let me point out I would not take ANY phase file into Camera Raw or Light room PERIOD. C1 is extremely fine tuned to the Phase backs and it shows right here in the noise dept. even at default plus you have tremendous noise control now with version 6. I say try it and see for yourself. But as a owner of a P40+ i had to interrupt here because I am extremely picky for one but also pretty dang happy with this sensor. Here are the raws you will see S2 raw images for review and a folder inside that called S2/P40 Noise test. Have fun

Also we will be shooting the IQ 180 this week as well and look for those tests. I personally have no need to upgrade to a higher mpx back but I would like the new tech involved and will look at lateral pricing to see if it makes sense to me dollar wise. I admit the new LCD and new features does have my gear slut button turned on but this is more a WANT than a need so have to look at it carefully for myself. Problem is i know i will love it and that is dangerous. LOL

Oops forget the link http://idisk.mac.com/guymancuso-Public?view=web
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 12:36:24 pm by Guy Mancuso »
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MrSmith

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Re: Phase One 80MP USB3.0 back AND A LARGE SCREEN!!!!
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2011, 12:07:34 pm »

yes i have shot a + back. the small gains were not significant enough to warrant an upgrade.
i still don't understand medium format manufacturers having a mpixel race instead of concentrating on better iso performance, in 5 years there has been very little improvement in this area compared to the gains seen in 35mm sensors.
yes capture 1 is a great bit of software. i use it for both phase and canon files.
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sanzari

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Re: Phase One 80MP USB3.0 back AND A LARGE SCREEN!!!!
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2011, 12:37:42 pm »

A look at Thom Hogan's site has a very interesting take on the mega pixel creep. Think I read that 90 million is the human eye resolution !! now just need the DR.

What Thom suggests is basically to keep the numbers of camera up to satisfy the markets, the mass producers have to keep adding more stuff and selling more technology in the cameras. The high end makers will continue to charge more and more for a lower set of diminishing returns to a fewer set of pro's and high disposable income amateurs.

At the low end the quality needed has been reached so they will drive Canon and Nikon high end functions into the low end, much like the Formula One development. The High end camera companies will begin to make slight changes and have a huge market in developing functionality from the DSLR market into the high end.

The actual market will shrink, as more Pros' go out of business and the quality demand of digital agencies drops. Most MF shoots now need a Canon 5D to capture the video footage that many mag and editors wants.

Whilst we are crave the higher end, most can say we do not need it. Greatest investment to make is a high quality printer. once you start printing these images, the reduced Gamut will show very little incremental benefit for the amateur and low end Pro alike.

Pentax is hitting a the right time a desire for more perceived quality. The problem is a lack of Glass. Leica comes to the market with amazing glass and it shows. Here is where the new battle shall be fought. At 40 million pixels most applications need nothing more. The only way to improve is Glass.

Manufacturers who can produce cheaper, great glass ( look to Russia in the past who tired it) perhaps China can start to copy designs and bring the cost down, then we will have a visual quality change. I shot and printed from a D3X and a D3s with the new 24-70mm lens. Printed at 24x20 I could see no difference at all. perhaps a slight colour shift but with my processing style of desaturation it made no difference.

How do I justify the Pentax I would love or indeed the I180, I cannot at present, so I look to the forum for the Sword Drawn from the Stone solution. !!!

Just the thoughts of an old MF film buff, who moved to Digital and wants to move back to MF but just cannot justify it, but so wants to. I think Pentax will surprise a few people in the coming months. Many are sick of the Japanese pricing and the uplift on Pro equipment. A new entrant is there, Phase need to react I am sure, but having so many choices is no the best thing as they have left the camera to be developed by someone else.

I think also Phase will engineer a new camera this year, so all Good. Hasselblad, I am not so sure. I think they have some changes coming and Leica is vogue, but for how long.

Dont blame me for the post, just want to blurt this afternoon with perhaps 5% accuracy ?

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Guy Mancuso

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Re: Phase One 80MP USB3.0 back AND A LARGE SCREEN!!!!
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2011, 12:39:31 pm »

No you misunderstand this is not about a difference between a P45 vs a P45 Plus back this is a entirely different sensor with the P40+ and P65+. It is a Dalsa sensor not a Kodak and the noise difference is very obvious. You can't miss it.
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Guy Mancuso

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Re: Phase One 80MP USB3.0 back AND A LARGE SCREEN!!!!
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2011, 01:06:05 pm »

Just a small point here the P40+ back when released was 19900. The same 40 Sensor in the new IQ140 is 22900. That is a 3K difference between than and now , maybe two years actually. But you get more features. That is not that bad when you look at it this way. Maybe the same for the P65+ can be said. I don't have those numbers handy. But the nice thing they did which i think keeps getting tossed aside is you actually have a 3 back choice with the new tech. 40,60 and 80. Now you may not need 80 or 60 or any combination here but you do get a choice and they are basically the same tech except the 80 has the newest sensor. We bitched and moaned for years about LCD and this and that . Looks like they pretty much addressed every known issue folks had. Okay some things are not like longer than a minute or two minutes. I have taken my P40+ to 90 seconds and looked good. Maybe a couple features like two card slots and one or two other things but on paper this is about the best back out there today with some really nice new features . That WE asked for. I give them credit for that and the if you need it or not my 35mm does what I needs is all BS to be honest. Bottom line you want to shoot MF for whatever darn reason you have here are three new choices to buy into and than there is Hassy, Leaf, Sinar and Leica as well. Nothing else matters if your clients wants it or not who cares. This is about the gear you chose to shoot need it or not than buy it or don't. My arm is certainly not being twisted and i do like the idea that i have a lot of options out here to go with. Be it you can afford it or it is two much money is irrelevant. Look at the S2 with over 6k per lens copy, people are buying it and good for them better for Leica. Same here and sure I would love to see a upgrade price that i can get into more comfortable but its a stretch right now for me , so I will wait or do a lateral. I spent over 30k last year on my wife's health care so i am out right now but so be it and no one cares it's my issue, this is just gear and not life and death. Does this new tech make better images , no not by a long shot but if it helps you as the shooter be more creative and free your brain up than maybe it is worth it to you. I would like it for sure as it would make my life better and I WANT it not sure why I read such a struggle about this stuff. Maybe I'm missing something here. No one is shoving this down your throat folks it is just there for the taken if you want to buy it.

Your mileage may certainly vary by a truck load. We all have different needs and wants.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 01:26:20 pm by Guy Mancuso »
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