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Author Topic: Sloping foreground in wide angle photographs  (Read 2885 times)

Peter Barnes

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Sloping foreground in wide angle photographs
« on: January 19, 2011, 06:48:13 am »

Strictly speaking this is not a MF issue, but I know there are some very informed and helpful architectural photographers that read this forum, so please forgive me.  The photo below is from a Canon 24mm Shift/Tilt lens on a Canon 5DMII body, taken, I think, with a small amount of shift up.  Is there some way I can use the capabilities of this lens to improve the way the floor looks - I can assure you that it is a flat floor, and not on a steep incline as indicated by the photo! Any advice gratefully received.
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Peter Barnes

Dick Roadnight

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Re: Sloping foreground in wide angle photographs
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2011, 07:24:45 am »

It looks to me as if the photo has been taken from a high view point to keep the verticals vertical, and the floor in focus, and eliminate or minimize the need for camera movements.

Try a lower view point with camera pointing horizontal, with shift to compose and tilt forward to get the floor in focus...

1.5 to 2 degrees of tilt should work.
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Kumar

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Re: Sloping foreground in wide angle photographs
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2011, 07:37:53 am »

Your camera isn't perfectly level, and you're too close to the right hand side of the frame, as witness the exaggerated perspective of the sofa and rug. Wide angle lenses are notoriously difficult to use, since they will magnify any small errors.

Kumar
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adammork

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Re: Sloping foreground in wide angle photographs
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2011, 08:43:36 am »

Dick is right, get the viewpoint down - personal I would not tilt, you should have enough depth of field with the 24 for drawing the floor sharp enough.

But if possible I would for sure avoiding to shoot this kind of image over X - move to the left so you are at center of the couch swing the camera so it run parallel with the floor and wall, move back if there is space, and then shift to the left, this can of course introduce new troubles with stretching the logo on the wall..... but that would be my first approach in a scene like this.

/adam
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Dick Roadnight

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Re: Sloping foreground in wide angle photographs
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2011, 08:55:24 am »

I can assure you that it is a flat floor, and not on a steep incline as indicated by the photo! Any advice gratefully received.
If you need to see the top of the desk, you cannot have the viewpoint much lower...

Cheating sometimes helps, and if you cropped off the right end of the rug, the perspective would be less apparent.

It looks like it is something you can do with a T/S lens, but I am thinking that using rear swing (horizontal tilt) on a view camera might reduce the " perspective distortion look".

What really screws up the picture is the rectangular grid of the tiled floor, which makes the perspective so obvious.

There are other ways if cheating... the left side of the picture looks OK, so you might try taking one picture of the sofa and rug, and one of the desk and combining them... or separate the two halves on the end of the red wall and "adjust" the perspective of the right half of the picture.

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Jeffreytotaro

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Re: Sloping foreground in wide angle photographs
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2011, 05:45:28 pm »

Hello Peter:

Using wide lenses for interiors work is an art in itself.  These are common issue that many people struggle with.  Getting used to how a lens will render a space or objects like furniture comes with experience.  When I run into this issue I try the following things:

1. Is there some more furniture that you could introduce to the foreground?  Looking over something will help fill the frame with more interest and also hopefully block the odd floor geometry.  With digital you can use the same sofa twice, where it is and in the foreground. Depends on how the designer feels about it.
2. Can you simplify the view?  Maybe changing to a more one-point perspective (looking straight-ahead rather than at an angle).  This can clean up the geometry quite well in most cases.
3. Can you back up and use a longer lens, like a 35mm?  This will help a lot and also bring the subjects closer.
4. Having the rug almost into the corner of the frame and touching the edge so slightly really adds to the distortion of this shot.  Pulling the rug much closer to you along with the table may help reduce the appearance of the distortion.
5. Lower the camera as others have mentioned.

This is a good example of where using a technical camera can help too.  Imagine that you aim the camera more to the right, making the middle of the sofa or even the middle of the right cushion, the center of the frame.  Then you could shift the digital back also to the right therefore seeing more of what's on the left side of the frame.  This will reduce the distortion for sure.  It gets it closer to a one-point perspective but allows you to keep the camera where you have it.  This is only partially possible with a DSLR.

One last comment, there's way too much stuff on the desk.  Don't be afraid to take over the space when you shoot it. Move whatever needs moving.
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Jeffrey Totaro
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Peter Barnes

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Re: Sloping foreground in wide angle photographs
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2011, 10:06:12 pm »

Thanks heaps for the very useful comments.

Jeffrey wrote "This is a good example of where using a technical camera can help too.  Imagine that you aim the camera more to the right, making the middle of the sofa or even the middle of the right cushion, the center of the frame.  Then you could shift the digital back also to the right therefore seeing more of what's on the left side of the frame.  This will reduce the distortion for sure.  It gets it closer to a one-point perspective but allows you to keep the camera where you have it.  This is only partially possible with a DSLR."

Are you saying this only partially possible with a DSLR because you cannot shift the back plane, or because typically you can't shift horizontally and raise vertically simultaneously with a shift lens on a DSLR? (with the Canon 24mm MII I can "shift" the lens diagonally if required - giving a limited amount of shift and rise at the same time).  With the example above, is there a difference between shifting the lens to the left and shifting the camera to the right? 

I do have a Zoerk adapter for my 645 lenses which has a tripod mount on it, allows camera movement while keeping the lens fixed.  Would this be useful?  Could I reduce this distortion by stitching shots taken with a 35 or 45mm lens?

thanks again,
Peter
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Peter Barnes

Jeffreytotaro

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Re: Sloping foreground in wide angle photographs
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2011, 07:57:56 am »

Hi Peter:

DSLRs are limited since you have to move the lens on an angle to get movement in 2 directions.  Possible, just not as precise.

I'd say 75% of your issues here could be solved with moving the camera and the furniture/rug, and 25% with camera adjustments (height/shifts).

I haven't used the Zoerk, but if you're shifting SLR lenses they do not have much coverage.

Cheers!
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Jeffrey Totaro
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Peter Devos

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Re: Sloping foreground in wide angle photographs
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2011, 10:38:01 am »

Ever since I am using my Hartbleicam, architectural images always turn out great. I think the best kept secret these days is the enormous image circle of the Canon TS lenses. The 24mmMk2 easely allows almost full shift on my HBcam HB1. It is a compact kit, uses a focussing screen and can accept almost all lenses ever made including the terrific Hasselblad FE60/120 zoomlens. One could easely have shifted a mm or so to see only the upper 2/3 of the rug.
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IanB

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Re: Sloping foreground in wide angle photographs
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2011, 12:01:13 pm »

As you don't have a full-movement technical camera available, there is one other cheat you could consider - move the sofa and rug. They don't have to be parallel to the back wall!
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Michael Bailey

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Re: Sloping foreground in wide angle photographs
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2011, 02:55:19 pm »

I think it's important to point out that this picture is "correct" in that the lens was shifted correctly to keep verticals parallel, there's no barrel distortion or other lens-induced oddity, and, from what I can see here, everything is sharp and correctly exposed. This picture shows exactly what a very wide angle lens is designed to do. (I would only argue, Peter, that the sight lines suggest to me a slight downward, rather than upward, shift. Maybe there's no shift at all.)

But getting things right doesn't mean you get them the way you want. As others have pointed out, you might have moved the camera to the left, so your view of the rug would be more head-on and thus have less of the arrowhead effect. For an even neater trick, you could leave the camera where you have it, aim a bit to the right, then shift the lens left to get your composition back. You'll have roughly the same picture, but the rug will be squarer. The desk area will acquire some of the pointed geometry you don't like, but it can afford a little more "swoosh" before it becomes offensive.

What I have learned from fisheye lenses and panoramic photography is that everything is a distortion. Wide angle views just make them more apparent. The wider your lenses and the more shift they can perform, the more often you'll confront these sorts of dilemmas.

So here's the short answer to your original question: Aim the camera a bit to the right and shift the lens a bit to the left to compensate. You could even aim your camera down slightly. Of course, this would violate the keep-the-verticals-vertical rule, but you have to pick your poison.

If you really want to read more of my nonsense on this:
http://www.michaelbaileyphoto.com/panos.htm
 click on "Notes"
« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 02:58:37 pm by Michael Bailey »
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Peter Barnes

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Re: Sloping foreground in wide angle photographs
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2011, 06:26:50 pm »

You guys are champions! You have inspired me to ring my client and ask permission to go back and re-do this shot. Thanks again. I think I will start with my Pentax 645 35mm lens on the Zoerk (Jeffrey, I can get up to 18mm of shift with this combination), and then attempt to apply some of your suggestions with the 24mmm.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 06:30:46 pm by Peter Barnes »
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Peter Barnes

Michael Bailey

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Re: Sloping foreground in wide angle photographs
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2011, 06:09:38 pm »

I'm glad to see you've been helped, Peter. But remember: Just because you have 18mm of shift on your lens doesn't mean you should necessarily use 18mm of shift on your lens. To quote the great philosopher Spiderman, "With great power comes great responsibility." And after all, he is a photographer.
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Peter Barnes

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Re: Sloping foreground in wide angle photographs
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2011, 12:43:15 am »

Michael, I agree, moderation and balance are key - if I have to go that far (18mm) it will only be to save the planet, preserve our freedoms, or keep a client happy.
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Peter Barnes

DeeJay

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Re: Sloping foreground in wide angle photographs
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2011, 08:05:44 am »

It's easy to think the widest possible lens is best for architecture and interiors. It's very often not the case and I think you need to think about composition more than just putting the same lens on every time.

You can give a good feel for the room, an impression, rather than just a literal snap, by carefully composing the important elements. A 35mm lens would have been plenty in this case. I used to shoot interiors alot with a Fuji GX-680. My favourite lens for that was the 65mm which was close to 35mm.

Instead of just putting the widest lens on and getting everything, stop and think about what is important, ask the architect or designer what is important to them. Work out what isn't important, eliminate the extraneous. Don't be afraid to shift things around.

Using something like a 35mm you will get far less distortion. For this pic though try lower and use your shift plane, it will help with that perspective of the floor. Also buy a hotshoe mount spirit level and a geared tripod head with micro adjustments.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 08:10:18 am by DeeJay »
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