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Author Topic: Tiny Viewfinders...  (Read 4743 times)

BobMcCarthy

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Tiny Viewfinders...
« on: May 24, 2005, 03:25:41 pm »

Not any more than you can sue manufactures of cheap shoes because they hurt your feet.
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DiaAzul

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« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2005, 12:49:01 pm »

One thing to bear in mind is that even if you do change from the 10D to a camera with a larger image in the view finder, you have probably picked up some bad habits with respect to screwing up your eyes to see into the smaller viewfinder - which you may carry over to any new camera. Even before changing over cameras it might be worth discussing with your optomoterist any specific exercises are techniques you can employ to reduce the stress that you are putting on your eyes. Whilst it can be a little bit more difficult to operate the camera you may want to practice using the camera keeping both eyes open (if necessary put a patch over the left eye if the incident light is a problem). You may also consider obtaining a larger eye cup for the viewfinder to help block out light entering the viewfinder between your eye and the rear of the camera - from experience it is the need to block out this incident light that cases me to screw up my eye and press it as close to the viewfinder as possible which could be leading to the strain you are experiencing.
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Bobtrips

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« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2005, 02:32:57 pm »

Quote
Might this be the solution to Pom's eye problems: a digital camera with live video feed to a laptop screen?
I think his solution is wearing his glasses....  


(Pom - get a set of progressive bifocals or half-frame reading glasses.  Stick a cleaning cloth in your shirt pocket.  Then try to accept aging gracefully as some of the rest of us are attempting to do.)


  :cool:
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Ben Rubinstein

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« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2005, 10:07:42 am »

I developed an eye condition in my right eye about two month ago. The optician originally diagnosed it as a specific medical problem but after another check today is confused. He doesn't think that it is that eye condition though there is a distortion in the right eyeball. He asked me if I'm squinting too much into the viewfinder while tightly screwing up my left eye. I replied in the neagative, i.e. that I'm not doing anything I haven't always done.

I got home and it struck me that I've been using the 10D exclusively for the past 7-8 months with it's tiny viewfinder. When shooting events/weddings with about 20-30 hours a week spent trying to use that mini viewfinder for cropping, composition and looking for trees coming out of peoples heads, that could have brought on a distortion of the eye.

I took a FF film camera and the 10D back to him and told him to try focusing through them, after ten seconds he said that the viewfinder could well be the cause. I'm going to see a specialist next week and I think that it will be interesting to see if he does diagnose the viewfinder as the problem.

If it is the problem then it's either film or a 1Ds. I've give or take burnt my film bridges so I wonder what it will be..
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Bobtrips

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« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2005, 11:46:08 am »

Why are the viewfinders smaller?  

Isn't it just an issue of magnifying the view?

(If they can't be enlarged then perhaps this will put a bit more pressure on releasing high quality EVFs.)
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Ben Rubinstein

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« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2005, 07:07:13 pm »

Oh that the 1.6 crop DSLR's were cheap....  :)
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BJL

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« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2005, 12:00:57 pm »

One way or another, I think the solution will involve brighter lenses, in the sense of larger maximum aperture diameter, so as to deliver more total light to the viewfinder. (Aperture diameter determines this at a given FOV, independent of format.)

Two things typically change with smaller format DSLR viewfinders, so could you ask the optician which he thinks might cause the problem:
1) the image is smaller
2) the image is less bright with a given lens
The second is because the VF magnification is usually increased to reduce the first effect.

If (1) is a problem, increasing VF magnification could help; upgrade to a 20D, or get a clip-on VF magnifier or such. However, this makes the VF image dimmer, so changing to brighter lenses might be desirable.

If (2) is a problem, brighter lenses are clearly a solution.

the solution of changing to a larger format while still using lenses of the same minimum f-stop is also using brighter lenses in the sense of larger aperture diameters.


This need for bright lenses does not surprise me: the greater sensitivity of DSLR sensors allows one to get away with smaller, lighter lenses of smaller maximum aperture diameters, but our eyes are not getting any more sensitive are they? I have already sworn off using f/5.6 lenses in sub-35mm formats, except if it is all I can afford for long telephoto reach.
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BobMcCarthy

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« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2005, 03:08:25 pm »

Quote
Oh that the 1.6 crop DSLR's were cheap....  

Well actually we are buying cheap camera's. I look at it as

We are buying N80's or Rebels which are $200-300 cameras with $500 plus of digital processing equipment added on. = D70/Drebel

or we are buying $2000/$2500 f-6/EOS 1v with $3000 to $6000 of digital assessories.
EOS 1D/1Ds / D2x

That said, I do agree the range of prices with digital hardly overlaps the film range. One can buy the best of the best in film for 1/3 to 1/2 of the going price of equivalent DSLR's.

Doesn't seem entirely proportional but R&D has to be high for the manufacture in the race to finish at the top of the heap.
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BryanHansel

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« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2005, 10:50:01 am »

Quote
meadow full of yellow flowers as me.
That looks like my front yard!  Except the flowers in my yard are dandelions.  I've actually heard of several people doing the same black cloth trick.
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Bryan Hansel
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image66

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« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2005, 08:06:42 pm »

I'm thinking that you might want to check the apparent viewing distance of the focusing screen in the cameras. Image size is one factor, but so is the eye to focus screen optical distance. My film cameras (Olympus OM) have a viewfinder which resembles an IMAX theatre and the focus distance is about five or six feet.  My E-1 has a smaller cropped viewfinder image but optically it remains about the same distance.

Another option, which isn't all that insane is to go to a medium format digital with waist-level viewfinder.  For the bulk of my industrial photography I use a prosumer with live EVF/LCD monitor.  It's a real pleasure to use both eyes.

Ken
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2005, 10:57:48 am »

Wow! I've been using a 10D for a little over a year now, and my right eye has changed more than my left (just got new glasses).

Maybe you've given me an excuse to upgrade to a 1DsII   ::

Eric
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BobMcCarthy

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« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2005, 01:06:27 pm »

I was under the impression it was the reduced format size with smaller mirrors, prisms, etc. When I compared my D2x with the D70, I realized it was all about cost savings.

Huge difference between the two (D2x vs.D70). D2x is almost as good as my F5.
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aduke

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« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2005, 11:17:45 am »

For several different reasons, I purchased an Angle Viewer C for my 10D. It not only makes some macro shots much more comfortable, but it seems to have increase my focusing accuracy.

It has a 1.25 and 2.5 magnifier, the ability to be used at any angle in the plane of focus, an a diopter focus capability.

So, the focus image is larger, not quite as bright, easy to see and has eliminated both the squinting and mess on the histogram.

Alan
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Ben Rubinstein

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« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2005, 02:37:45 pm »

I do wear glasses and took off the rubber eyecup on the 10D as it was shmearing up my glasses what with pressing against it so hard.

I tried playing with my elan II compared to my 10D. With the FF viewfinder my eye was relaxed and comfortable, including shooting with both eyes open. With the 10D my left eye screwed up tight and my right eye tried to pop out of it's socket when I looked through the viewfinder. The difference was both very noticeable and remarkable as far as I could see when tested side by side.

The idea of faster glass makes sense, if I buy a 1Ds next week it will be with a 24-70L f2.8 to replace my 17-40L f4 which has been masquerading as a 'normal zoom' lens on the 10D.

Anyway, we will see what we shall see....
(no I didn't intend it as a pun, I have my standards!)
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2005, 01:53:17 am »

A few years ago I was shooting a pano up by Clear Lake, and a gentleman stopped his car about 20 yards behind mine and started shooting the same meadow full of yellow flowers as me.



When I finished shooting my series, I looked over and saw the other gentleman had set up his camera on a tripod, and was fiddling with it under a black cloth. At first I thought he had a 4x5 or the like, but it turned out he had one of the floppy-disk Sony Mavicas and was simply using the black cloth to block out enough ambient light so he could see the LCD!
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Bobtrips

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« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2005, 10:58:00 am »

Too bad he didn't know about the add on LCD hoods such as the Extend-A-View.  They turn the LCD into a eyepiece viewer - complete with magnifying lens.

I had one for my first digital (Oly C2020) and it worked great.  Gave me very usable TTL viewing in bright sunlight.  Attached (when desired) with Velcro.
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2005, 11:42:28 am »

Heh. If you're dodgy, you can trick people into thinking you're shooting a view camera...
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Ben Rubinstein

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« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2005, 09:02:54 pm »

Quote
I think his solution is wearing his glasses....  


(Pom - get a set of progressive bifocals or half-frame reading glasses.  Stick a cleaning cloth in your shirt pocket.  Then try to accept aging gracefully as some of the rest of us are attempting to do.)

Um, I wear glasses all my waking hours, my prescription is -2.75,

Oh, and I'm only 25 years old....  

I shoot event/wedding photography and am thank G-d very busy, a wedding usually means about 8-12 hours of constant shooting.
I was shooting a big barbeque a couple of nights back on a commercial job for a charity. After 5 minutes of shooting I got a a tap on my shoulder and it was my optician! He said he had been watching me for a while now and I'm screwing up my face far to tight when looking into the viewfinder inorder to concentrate on what I can see through that little window....
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Ben Rubinstein

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« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2005, 01:58:08 pm »

I don't suppose we could sue?  :p  :p
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Peter McLennan

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« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2005, 07:30:56 pm »

A still photographer on a film shoot showed me his Leica yesterday.  I don't know the model, but it was a brand new camera.  

The viewfinder was absolutely amazing.  Bright, sharp, clear and a HUGE image.  How soon we forget.

Peter
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