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Author Topic: How to check if a monitor color profile is correct?  (Read 7376 times)

Coloreason

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How to check if a monitor color profile is correct?
« on: January 13, 2011, 02:12:27 pm »

Hi, I'm a freelancer, and I used to make and print design, artworks, and photos, for years without using any custom created monitor profiles, by printing color proofs and making corrections if necessary.
However after my standard gamut CRT monitor died I got a wide gamut monitor Dell u2711 which is completely useless for proper color feedback  without custom color profile and color managed software. So I got Spyder 3 and Color Eyes Display Pro software and calibrated and profiled the monitor. Now the color feedback is very good in the color managed programs and so far the color proofs always match the colors on the monitor. So, now I'm better off than before and I'm happy with the results but I've read a lot of messages from people complaining from their monitor color profiles as being not accurate. This makes me wonder if accuracy is measured with the degree of being happy with the results or there is some more objective way of testing a monitor color profile.

I will greatly appreciate your input.

GS
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 02:32:38 pm by Coloreason »
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ronkruger

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Re: How to check if a monitor color profile is correct?
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2011, 02:55:23 pm »

I calibrated with Spyder and trust it.
The problem is how a printer's or publisher's equipment communicates and interprets the data. Most of the time, everything is fine, but occasionally (rarely), I've had something printed or published that came out darker than I intended. The colors seemed fine, but the luminance was off. I don't think this is Spyder's fault, but the end user's fault.
I suspect part of the problem is that most cameras and shooters slightly overexpose images, so many publishers and printers have their equipment set to automatically darken the images slightly to make them look better and richer. The best printers will provide proofs, but with publications, you just have to remember who does what.
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Coloreason

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Re: How to check if a monitor color profile is correct?
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2011, 07:16:04 pm »

Thanks for the reply ronkruger.

I wonder if the people who believe that they have a correct monitor color profile, make a test with an image using the same file, software, and settings to convert the image to the monitor profile, and then again convert to a common color space like sRGB, then if everyone has a correct monitor profile, everyone should end up with the same image, shouldn't they? No? Do I make sense?

edit: It just occur to me that in order for this to be true, the color space of the monitor used for the test should be larger than sRGB? Am I right? Or what could be a standard color space that is narrower than the color space of most monitors? CMYK?

edit 2: or may be the image used for the test should not be very saturated to make sure that most monitors will cover it, so that even if a monitor's color space doesn't completely overlap sRGB it still can be tested?

« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 07:51:59 pm by Coloreason »
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digitaldog

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Re: How to check if a monitor color profile is correct?
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2011, 08:06:17 pm »

Accurate is a marketing buz word. Does the display and print next to the display match well? If so, that’s what you want. See: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/why_are_my_prints_too_dark.shtml
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ronkruger

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Re: How to check if a monitor color profile is correct?
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2011, 12:32:55 am »

Thanks for the reply ronkruger.

I wonder if the people who believe that they have a correct monitor color profile, make a test with an image using the same file, software, and settings to convert the image to the monitor profile, and then again convert to a common color space like sRGB, then if everyone has a correct monitor profile, everyone should end up with the same image, shouldn't they? No? Do I make sense?

edit: It just occur to me that in order for this to be true, the color space of the monitor used for the test should be larger than sRGB? Am I right? Or what could be a standard color space that is narrower than the color space of most monitors? CMYK?

edit 2: or may be the image used for the test should not be very saturated to make sure that most monitors will cover it, so that even if a monitor's color space doesn't completely overlap sRGB it still can be tested?



I'm not sure I understand what you are saying, and I'm not an expert, but this is my take.
sRGB is the color profile for all monitors that I know of. aRGB, or CMYK, is a printing profile that is actually broader than sRGB. This broader profile give you more hues of the color range. It is based upon the old 4-color printing process. However, if you display an aRGB image on a monitor, it won't look right, usually dull with mutted colors. Most, if not all, print publishers automatically convert sRGB to CMYK for printing. It's done with software, so it's pretty accurate. So don't shoot or process in aRGB, unless you work for a top ad agency or someone who specifically requests it.
I made the mistake some time ago thinking that since I shoot for publication, it would be better to shoot and submit in aRGB so they would have a purer file, but it only confused them, and when the editors (who don't know anything about this stuff) viewed the images on their monitors, they thought the colors were off. I may have actually lost some sales because of it.
This is an sRGB world.
If you have shot and processed in aRGB, you can still convert it to sRGB with a simple click in PhotoShop. That's what I did.
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Schewe

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Re: How to check if a monitor color profile is correct?
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2011, 01:11:33 am »

I wonder if the people who believe that they have a correct monitor color profile, make a test with an image using the same file, software, and settings to convert the image to the monitor profile, and then again convert to a common color space like sRGB, then if everyone has a correct monitor profile, everyone should end up with the same image, shouldn't they? No? Do I make sense?

No...what you just outlined is not at all reasonable...

The ONLY use of your display profile should be for Photoshop, ACR or Lightroom to use to display your image–whatever it's color space–to your display. Doing a Convert to Profile to your display profile is, well, to be blunt, ignorant.

Yes, lot's of displays are still struggling to display sRGB (top of the line displays can display real close to all of Adobe RGB). But the purpose of the display profile is really ONLY to give PS/ACR/LR instructions for how to display your image...

When you output the image to ANY output devise (be it inkjet, photo contone or display) only THEN do you do a final color transform from your working space to your output profile–never your display profile.

Your display profile is unique to YOUR specific display at  given time and calibration–it is unique.

It's usefulness ends for any other purpose other than feeding PS/ACR/LR for corrections of your image in its working space to your display. The display profile is pretty much useless for any other purpose.

You want images for the web, transform to sRGB. You want images for magazine work (halftone), transform to Adobe RGB. If you want long term archival master images, use ProPhoto RGB in 16-bit.

But your display profile is transient and ONLY useful for looking at and evaluating the image inside of PS/ACR/LR.

Really, forget about trying to use your display profile for anything else...
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Coloreason

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Re: How to check if a monitor color profile is correct?
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2011, 02:28:32 am »

Thanks digitaldog, good link :).
Regarding my test proposal, I was thinking that perfectly matching an image on multiple displays should be possible if the monitor color profiles are correct and the image being displayed is converted to a color space or contain colors that all monitors can display. 
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Coloreason

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Re: How to check if a monitor color profile is correct?
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2011, 02:44:11 am »

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying, ....
ronkruger, with my message, I was trying to come up with a test that if everyone interested makes and share the result, should give some idea about how our monitor profiles perform and may eventually give clues about the correctness of the profiles.
sRGB is the color profile for all monitors that I know of. aRGB, or CMYK, is a printing profile that is actually broader than sRGB. ...
May be you mean sRGB is the working color space for all monitors that you know of? The color profile of each monitor is the one created by the profiling software. If one doesn't have such profile, a standard color space profile like sRGB can be used but it will not be accurate unless the monitor is displaying perfectly the sRGB color space.
Regarding how wide the color spaces are, AFAIK sRGB for most parts encompasses CMYK but  aRGB is wider than both. CMYK is mostly for offset printing while certain special printers can take advantage from aRGB.
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Coloreason

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Re: How to check if a monitor color profile is correct?
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2011, 02:45:14 am »

No...what you just outlined is not at all reasonable...

The ONLY use of your display profile should be for Photoshop, ACR or Lightroom to use to display your image–whatever it's color space–to your display. Doing a Convert to Profile to your display profile is, well, to be blunt, ignorant.

Yes, lot's of displays are still struggling to display sRGB (top of the line displays can display real close to all of Adobe RGB). But the purpose of the display profile is really ONLY to give PS/ACR/LR instructions for how to display your image...

When you output the image to ANY output devise (be it inkjet, photo contone or display) only THEN do you do a final color transform from your working space to your output profile–never your display profile.

Your display profile is unique to YOUR specific display at  given time and calibration–it is unique.

It's usefulness ends for any other purpose other than feeding PS/ACR/LR for corrections of your image in its working space to your display. The display profile is pretty much useless for any other purpose.

You want images for the web, transform to sRGB. You want images for magazine work (halftone), transform to Adobe RGB. If you want long term archival master images, use ProPhoto RGB in 16-bit.

But your display profile is transient and ONLY useful for looking at and evaluating the image inside of PS/ACR/LR.

Really, forget about trying to use your display profile for anything else...
Schewe, thank you for your reply.
I understand everything you say, but using color managed programs, I always assign my monitor color profile to images that I create in non color managed programs in order to bring them to color management. Of course at the end the images end up converted either to a common color space or the color space of the target if known.
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digitaldog

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Re: How to check if a monitor color profile is correct?
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2011, 11:45:10 am »

Regarding my test proposal, I was thinking that perfectly matching an image on multiple displays should be possible if the monitor color profiles are correct and the image being displayed is converted to a color space or contain colors that all monitors can display. 

It is but its not easy! Ideally all the displays would be the same make and model. Its going to be a LOT easier to get 5 NEC SpectraView II’s to match, especially since you will be using identical software and sending the target calibration aim points (which you can save out of the app) to all 5 workstations, than 5 totally different brands. The SpectraView II software even has provisions for measuring the WP from say unit 1 on unit 2 for a visual match.
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Coloreason

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Re: How to check if a monitor color profile is correct?
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2011, 01:10:39 pm »

It is but its not easy! Ideally all the displays would be the same make and model. Its going to be a LOT easier to get 5 NEC SpectraView II’s to match, especially since you will be using identical software and sending the target calibration aim points (which you can save out of the app) to all 5 workstations, than 5 totally different brands. The SpectraView II software even has provisions for measuring the WP from say unit 1 on unit 2 for a visual match.
Right, I realize that matching perfectly colors on different monitors is not easy especially with various different brands, profiling software, and devices. However for the purpose of the test (I'm still not sure if what I proposed makes sense for testing this in my reply #2), but if it does and if a number of people try this and share the results, then I think we should be able to draw some conclusions about the monitor profile used based on how close/different each image is to the rest. I'm thinking about a situation where some people are happy with screen to print match but the screen representation may be very different from how most people see it on their properly calibrated and profiled monitors.
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Coloreason

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Re: How to check if a monitor color profile is correct?
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2011, 01:12:26 pm »

Accurate is a marketing buz word. Does the display and print next to the display match well? If so, that’s what you want. ...

digitaldog ,I've been thinking about what you said and while it is true that this is all that matters when printing an image, something that's bugging me is if this is enough to ensure that the colors can also be reproduced when used anytime elsewhere like in the future on other monitors and printers.
As I mentioned initially for many years I was able to match the intended colors on offset printing without even using any custom monitor profiles. I would adjust the monitor display to match how colors print but also choose colors based on experience how they print. So, now even after using what I believe to be a correct monitor color profile, it may still be some other factors contributing to screen to print matching which may be limited to my particular workflow and situation. While some of the work I create is final and may never be used again, I also create artworks and illustrations from scratch referring to the monitor and it will be great if the colors I use can be reproduced in the future just by using the digital file without my involvement. As far as I understand if the monitor profile correctly describes how my monitor displays colors this should be possible. And this is why I'm looking for a way to check how correct the monitor profile is. I don't expect some super precision color matching because that depends on various factors that are beyond control but it will be great to have some more objective way of testing the monitor profile.

I will greatly appreciate any feedback about my concerns.
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digitaldog

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Re: How to check if a monitor color profile is correct?
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2011, 01:22:43 pm »

I think we should be able to draw some conclusions about the monitor profile used based on how close/different each image is to the rest. I'm thinking about a situation where some people are happy with screen to print match but the screen representation may be very different from how most people see it on their properly calibrated and profiled monitors.

The profile itself is only as “good” or desirable as the target aim points you ask for and then the software, instrument etc. You may very well need quite differing target white points to get two different displays to match. Or luminance values.
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Coloreason

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Re: How to check if a monitor color profile is correct?
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2011, 02:14:45 pm »

The profile itself is only as “good” or desirable as the target aim points you ask for and then the software, instrument etc. You may very well need quite differing target white points to get two different displays to match. Or luminance values.
Thank you for the reply digitaldog.
I'm still learning about how this works, but the way I understand it so far is that, given both monitors can display the same color, color managed software like Photoshop should be able to translate and produce a color match between two monitors with profiles created with different settings. No?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2011, 02:17:12 pm by Coloreason »
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Coloreason

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Re: How to check if a monitor color profile is correct?
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2011, 09:30:58 pm »

I'm replying to myself regarding this:
I wonder if the people who believe that they have a correct monitor color profile, make a test with an image using the same file, software, and settings to convert the image to the monitor profile, and then again convert to a common color space like sRGB, then if everyone has a correct monitor profile, everyone should end up with the same image, shouldn't they? No? Do I make sense?...
I realized that such test doesn't make sense and will not work at all because given the color space of the monitor is wider than the original image it will always perfectly revert back to the original image regardless if the monitor color profile correctly or incorrectly describes how the monitor displays colors. For Photoshop this is simply some original numbers + some number change representing monitor display and then minus the same numbers representing the monitor is back to the original numbers, which proves nothing - nice try though   ;D.

Now, without any ideas about more objective means about how to check if a monitor color profile correctly describes the displayed colors, let me ask what can be done to ensure that displayed colors can be eventually reproduced in the future with other monitors and profiles without the involvement of the creator? For example, artworks like digital paintings are created from scratch entirely relying on how the monitor displays colors and this is also valid for any color work like photo editing involving color decisions based on monitor feedback. Then how can we archive such work for future and rest assured the colors can be reproduced?
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