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Author Topic: True Black and White on Canon IPF 8300  (Read 10534 times)

deanwork

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True Black and White on Canon IPF 8300
« on: January 13, 2011, 01:06:05 pm »

Is there anyone who is really experienced with using the BowHaus TBW software on the new Canon printers?

There has to be someone out there who has really gotten down into it by now and can reveal how it is comparing to the Canon plug-in and the other brand OEM solutions on both matte and fiber gloss media.

john
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jbn

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Re: True Black and White on Canon IPF 8300
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2011, 08:00:08 pm »

Wish I could help with the technical aspects, but as I'm a regular user of their scanning service in LA, I've looked at countless prints they've created with it.  I have to say, they blow away anything I can do through the RIP...maybe I'm also just looking at the highest quality photographs from some world-renowned photographers...but the quality of the printing is simply stunning.  I just want to touch them they are so vibrant and the blacks are so deep, it looks like your finger would go through the print...only thing I've seen that gets close to a platinum print hands down.  I wish I worked with B&W photographers right now, I would love to try it for myself. 
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JohnBrew

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Re: True Black and White on Canon IPF 8300
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2011, 08:37:57 pm »

Your accolades have me interested, but it seems the software only works with a Mac and Canon printers. Damn shame as I'm on a PC and Epson.

cengell

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Re: True Black and White on Canon IPF 8300
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2011, 09:17:53 pm »

John geat news for you, they do make it for Epson and PC, I purchased it before I moved and by what I read its awesome and then after my move my Epson printer got damaged and cost too much to repair.

So I am selling this program and take a look at it here and contact me if you want purchase it.

http://www.bowhaus.com/contributors/contributor.htm

Its the best way for BW printing.

Christopher
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: True Black and White on Canon IPF 8300
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2011, 05:21:12 am »

I think there was nothing wrong with QTR to drive an Epson and John has used that workflow + the already good OEM B&W of the HP Z3100. His interest in the Canons + B&W must be seen in the light of QTR no longer able to drive the most recent Epson models (Epson blocking GutenPrint etc development of drivers) and an unclear future for HP Z designjet models.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html


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JohnBrew

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Re: True Black and White on Canon IPF 8300
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2011, 08:37:03 am »

Cengell, thanks for your offer. True Black and White don't offer a test of this program on their website. I've written to them to see about a downloadable test for the PC/Epson combo. I might be interested in purchasing your key but not until I test the software. And back to the OP's request for user input: yes, by all means let's hear from some of you. Their site is full of testimonials but they don't seem to have many details or examples of their product versus the competition.
Regards,
John

abiggs

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Re: True Black and White on Canon IPF 8300
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2011, 09:47:33 am »

I have run a few tests on my 8300, and my initial output was less than stellar. I haven't had the time to dive in to learn the ins and outs of the software, but my first attempt to create a new paper setup yielded sample prints that were way too dark. I had to use the slider to lighten them up, and I just haven't found the time to start troubleshooting from there. I need to dedicate a few days to learning the ins and outs of the software, that's for sure.

I am also interested to see if there is much of a user community on these forums for TrueBW.
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Andy Biggs
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deanwork

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Re: True Black and White on Canon IPF 8300
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2011, 05:17:47 pm »

Andy, you are going to have to linearize it separately from the Canon internal calibration software approach. My sense is that, like all excellent bw rip situations you are going to have to print out a grayscale target or two, measure the patches, set the ink limits, especially if the darkest patches are over inking, and then you should be set to go. I'm positive that to find the best shadow detail and render the best dmax a good linearizion is going to be essential. The other thing to remember is that these Lucia inks take at least overnight to cure fully. This is much more the case than Epson or HP inks. This is what people are saying on the Canon wiki from trial and error. I'm going to order one next week and then maybe we can start a community of sharing workflow with the TBW. I haven't found anyone who is deep into it yet. I'm also going to email BowHaus when I get the monster set up.

john
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TylerB

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Re: True Black and White on Canon IPF 8300
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2011, 10:11:07 pm »

John, the only people I'm aware of having much knowledge with True B&W is Keith Cooper and Mark at Aardenberg. I did not get the impression either had the kind of in depth work with it that would give you the feedback you would want. Keith gave it a write-up here-
http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/reviews/software/true_black_and_white.html
I would not take the old Bowhaus RIP really seriously right now, without talking to our mutual friend Scott. Everything I've heard is that it hasn't had much support for several years now, and their attention has gone into the True Black and White version for Canon only. Scott is on the older version for their Epsons and can tell you more about it than anyone we know.
Knowing your level of experience and background I think you're going to have to see some of these prints for yourself to make any decision, but if you do get a Canon in there, you can demo the software.
Still though, for PK work, there's no GO, so I think it's up against some hard competition against your HP, which given it's 4 Ks for matte, may excel there as well...
Tyler
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abiggs

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Re: True Black and White on Canon IPF 8300
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2011, 11:28:21 pm »

I did take an existing setup and re-linearized it and saved it for a similar paper. I would have thought that re-linearizing would have been enough, but I guess I need to learn how to optimize the workflow.
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Andy Biggs
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JohnBrew

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Re: True Black and White on Canon IPF 8300
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2011, 09:40:17 am »

John, the only people I'm aware of having much knowledge with True B&W is Keith Cooper and Mark at Aardenberg. I did not get the impression either had the kind of in depth work with it that would give you the feedback you would want. Keith gave it a write-up here-
http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/reviews/software/true_black_and_white.html
I would not take the old Bowhaus RIP really seriously right now, without talking to our mutual friend Scott. Everything I've heard is that it hasn't had much support for several years now, and their attention has gone into the True Black and White version for Canon only. Scott is on the older version for their Epsons and can tell you more about it than anyone we know.
Knowing your level of experience and background I think you're going to have to see some of these prints for yourself to make any decision, but if you do get a Canon in there, you can demo the software.
Still though, for PK work, there's no GO, so I think it's up against some hard competition against your HP, which given it's 4 Ks for matte, may excel there as well...
Tyler
Not the John you have directed your response to but I tend to agree with you that they seem to have dropped the ball on staying current and updating the software as necessary. It's really a shame as this software seems to offer quite a bit for someone who does a lot of bw printing, and I would still be interested in trying a demo.

deanwork

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Re: True Black and White on Canon IPF 8300
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2011, 11:07:13 am »

I'm only really interested in the True Black and White for Canon 8300.

The gloss performance on gloss fiber is better on the new Canon than the HP. The gloss performance on the rc media is perfect. The dmax on the HP with matte media beats them all.

j
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JohnBrew

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Re: True Black and White on Canon IPF 8300
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2011, 02:24:31 pm »

I wrote BowHaus about using their software on a PC for Epson printer. Here is their response: "Yes we are developing partners with Canon, so this program is only focused on those printers.  We do have an version of the software for Epson printers that works with the older Epson models, but we halted development on that when we started working with Canon."
Hmm...

deanwork

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Re: True Black and White on Canon IPF 8300
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2011, 08:10:54 pm »

Hey, don't blame BouHaus! There was already a great carefully refined software developed ages ago centered specifically for use with Epson printers of all sizes and inksets. It is called Quad Tone Rip created by Roy Harrington as a labor of love. It was giving us excellent black and white capability even in the days when Epson had NO solution at all. Not only did QTR provide a simple elegant user interface that allowed you to use the most permanent channels of Ultrachome inks and by pass the problem channels ( also no metamerism with QTR even with K2 inks), but it also allowed simple sliders for split toning if desired in three value channels -highlights/midtones/shadows. QTR gave us an easy profiling menu in which to print out grayscale targets and precisely linearize what ever media we choose to use. Heaven forbid we would choose to use something other than Epson media.  It also was set up to create color toning icc profiles to soft proof our toned set ups accurately.

What Epson did to thank Harrington for all that he contributed to the black and white imaging community for the past decade was to shut him out of the recent  series Pro Stylus printers. He can't get the codes to continue his support for Epson workflows. So it is history now.

Considering all that do you think that BouHaus would even dream of attempting the difficult work of supporting Epson machines, EVEN IF they were given the opportunity to work with them? Of course not. Epson wants everything in house with their ABW solution, as if it was superior to what we had before. It isn't.

Hopefully Canon will be more enlightened in allowing True Black and White to thrive, refine and survive. Let's hope so.

john
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keith_cooper

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Re: True Black and White on Canon IPF 8300
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2011, 09:34:54 am »

I did take an existing setup and re-linearized it and saved it for a similar paper. I would have thought that re-linearizing would have been enough, but I guess I need to learn how to optimize the workflow.

I'm trying to do a bit more on this with the 8300, however I've got some other testing work that is taking precedence at the moment ;-)

The review I wrote about TBW was whilst I had a 6300 on loan from Canon last year, when Bowhaus had relatively few paper profiles for x300 printers.  It's worth noting that I found a problem in the software and they were very quick to fix it.

I did try (re)linearising a couple of curves with the 8300 on two Innova papers (IFA-49 and 11) and found that picking initial profiles to linearise (with an i1 pro) will take a bit more time and care, in that one seemed to go quite well, whist another just kept getting kinks and transitions where I didn't want them.

Having had some experience in generating ink curves from scratch for QTR, I'd rather not get too much into this side of things, since it takes a lot of work to get it right - there's also a guide/hints to doing it with QTR, not so for TBW

I'd also want to make it clear that after my initial testing with TBW, my only real concerns were with issues related to paper handling and sizes - not the quality of the prints. I know some have dismissed this as unimportant, but it wasn't to me - as they say YMMV and it was my review :-)

On a related matter, I did recently look at some qualitative aspects of 8300 greyscale performance under different lighting, particularly when using the Canon B/W print mode. This may be of interest to those looking to use it for B/W?

Greys on the iPF8300





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John Hollenberg

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Re: True Black and White on Canon IPF 8300
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2011, 10:06:15 am »

Keith, thanks for the great work on the iPFX300 printers.  I have updated the Reviews section of the Canon iPF Wiki to include separate links to the subsections of your Usage Notes for the iPF8300:

http://canonipf.wikispaces.com/Reviews
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keith_cooper

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Re: True Black and White on Canon IPF 8300
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2011, 10:16:49 am »

Keith, thanks for the great work on the iPFX300 printers.  I have updated the Reviews section of the Canon iPF Wiki to include separate links to the subsections of your Usage Notes for the iPF8300:
Thanks for listing it - hopefully it has a few of those little things in it that save a bit of annoyance for new users :-)
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Light Seeker

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Re: True Black and White on Canon IPF 8300
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2011, 02:35:00 pm »

My 8300 just arrived and I'll be loading the inks tonight. I've worked with QTR for years and plan on trying True Black and White but it will be a while before I can get to it. Until then, I'll be watching this thread with great interest.

FWIW, I did e-mail BowHaus a question about printing split-tones on the Canon and they replied promptly, indicating this can be done.

Terry.
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deanwork

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Re: True Black and White on Canon IPF 8300
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2011, 03:09:26 pm »

Keith, I appreciate your write up on monochrome with the Canon IPF8300 driver.

Just as with Epson's ABW mode, obviously metamerism can happen when the wrong combination/proportion of color composite inks are added to the mix.
This is exactly why QTR was so successful with the previous generation of Epson monochrome output, and why they are shooting themselves in the foot by locking it out of the 7900/9900 series and future printers. You can use Studio Print to do the same thing but that can be very costly even if you have an older version of it.

Similarly, this hue cast variation that can happen with the Canon Lucia pigments is one of the primary reasons (along with tonal precision and longevity) that BowHaus and Canon are working together on the TBW solution. Canon deserves a lot of credit to even allow such a collaboration to exist, and I hope we can encourage them to continue and improve that relationship. I'd also give anything to have one  more even lighter gray in the Lucia or Vevera inksets. I'd trade the blue or the green for it.

In a related note, it wouldn't matter what inks are involved (even the neutralized HP inks suffer) if one is using a paper with a lot of conventional bluish oba in either the paper or the coating. In that case the highlights and high values are going to "split" and distort toward coolness when exposed to daylight and stay warmer with tungsten. In my experience the brighter white Innova Fiber Gloss media is one of the worst papers for creating this kind of high value color shift with BW. The Moab bright white paper is the same.

For me I've switched over to the Canson media that uses white pigment instead of oba chemicals (which are really a form of fugitive dye) . You don't see this metamerism with the Canson in my experience so far. And for fiber gloss I use the natural base Hahnemuhle Photorag Baryta, Crane Silver Rag, and Cone Type 5, all oba free and show no metamerism with the HP inks.   The Innova F Gloss is also is doing very poorly in the Aardenburg tests for oba burnout; not surprising really, the high values of the print are what are the most effected.

john
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