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Schewe

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Re: pc or mac
« Reply #60 on: January 16, 2011, 11:25:54 pm »

What I'd like to see Jeff, is you and Michael doing a tutorial using a PC using Windows 7  ;)

Well, we'll see...we're planning on doing an update to Camera to Print this coming year...we DID include printing from Widows in the first version. I believe Mike booted in Vista from his iMac (it might have been using Parallels though-either way I remember Mike having "issues").

I have no problem using Windows except for the finger reach of the control key vs the command key. Other than that–and running Windows tends to be more fatiguing than Mac OS X for Adobe software, it really is pretty close to 6 of one and 1/2 dozen of the other although it's prolly closer to 60/40 or 55/45 (with Mac in the slight current lead).

Your discussion of Photoshop being Mac fist and loosing market share to Windows is a straw man argument. If you start at 100% of a market and you then develop something cross platform, then you better figure you'll lose market share on the original platform. But Apple's main loss of market share happened last millennium just before Steve Jobs returned to Apple (the other CEO's really did screw things up). Since then (about the time the first iMac came out) it's been Apple increasing their market share while MSFT keeps losing market share.

Seriously, if app availability isn't an issue (such as using Adobe software), which platform would YOU prefer to boot in?

For me, it's Mac OS X. Does that make me a zealot? I'm not sure it does...
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Gemmtech

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Re: pc or mac
« Reply #61 on: January 17, 2011, 12:11:03 am »

Jeff,

Well, we'll see...we're planning on doing an update to Camera to Print this coming year...we DID include printing from Widows in the first version. I believe Mike booted in Vista from his iMac (it might have been using Parallels though-either way I remember Mike having "issues").

And if you could, I love to see you take several images (various scenes/compositions) and take them from A to Z not going off on a tangent.  

"Your discussion of Photoshop being Mac fist and loosing market share to Windows is a straw man argument. If you start at 100% of a market and you then develop something cross platform, then you better figure you'll lose market share on the original platform. But Apple's main loss of market share happened last millennium just before Steve Jobs returned to Apple (the other CEO's really did screw things up). Since then (about the time the first iMac came out) it's been Apple increasing their market share while MSFT keeps losing market share."

I don't believe it's a straw man argument, simply put, if you are using a machine that never breaks down and never crashes why change?  Obviously if you have 100% of the market share you can only gain units not percentage.  I believe Steve Jobs came back in 1998 and I also agree that Sculley and Co. screwed up Apple.  Apple has increased its share of units sold, I'm not sure that Microsoft has lost much OS market share, if they have it's probably not many points.  And, how many Mac users dual boot their Macs with windows and how many are like me and have Macs with Windows only?  Obviously now that a Mac can run Windows, there are those who do so.

"Seriously, if app availability isn't an issue (such as using Adobe software), which platform would YOU prefer to boot in?"

I was wondering when somebody was going to ask me that question!   ;)  Somehow it got lost in translation!

Before Windows 7 and SSDs I preferred the Mac OS (App dependent) for a few reasons, at times I'm impatient and Macs, boot, shut down and WAKE UP a lot faster than Windows PCs, again prior to Windows 7 and SSDs.  Naturally I'm acclimated to the PC keyboard and it just takes some time to learn.  I've had issues printing with the Mac, but obviously that was me because you do it with no problem?  I love my MBP, but those darn Apple engineers haven't worked very hard on the drivers for Windows, sound drivers are bad (volume is very low), bluetooth was difficult and the great trackpad (I believe best in the business) doesn't work to its full potential under windows.  So I'm kind of forced to use the Mac OS right now with the MBP, I have to dual boot because of my software.  I'll admit that it's possible there are easy fixes for each of my problems, I just haven't figured them out yet, so if you can guide me?  I didn't buy 3 Macs, IPhones and IPods because I thought they were awful machines, I did have a reason why I bought them.  My Macs, IPhone and IPod I believe were very rational well thought out purchases.  Back to your question, it's software dependent, Lightroom is very close I don't care which OS, but Quicken isn't Quicken and Word isn't Word, etc.  That's what bothers me and that was something I was ignorant towards, I didn't realize that each version had its own GUI.

I build all my own machines and the issue was with cost, I can build an incredible machine for a lot less.  Some people might ask "Why did you buy a Mac?" And the reasons are, I wanted to learn the Mac OS and I had wanted an all in one in my kitchen, bathroom and for the kids.  I can't build an all in one so I bought what I thought was the best all in one available.  One started as a dual boot, one Mac OS only and one was converted to only Windows Vista, now only one has the Mac OS on it.  Intuitively for me, Windows is better, it feels more user friendly and those who I have purchased Macs for feel the same and most have made me add Windows OS, that could just be a case of PEOPLE HATE CHANGE.  Those who have never touched a computer in my experience have an easier time getting up and running with Windows.  I know Pascalf will translate this for you, but I'll reiterate, it's truly not the OS, I can't understand purchasing a Mac when one can get a much better PC for less money.  I did discount the time it takes to learn a new OS and I was wrong on that point, I take it for granted I learn pretty quick and the OS just doesn't matter to me as much as it does to most.  I know most people don't like Linux, but I never had serious problems with it.  Windows or Mac, I truly believe they are very equal, but I believe ALL Macs are way overpriced, especially Mac Pros.  I own HP, Lenovo and a MBP laptop, my MBP has been to over 10 countries within the past year, the others have stayed home!

"For me, it's Mac OS X. Does that make me a zealot? I'm not sure it does..."

That in itself does not make one a zealot, I was referring to your other statements, maybe you were just being insidious or facetious?



« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 12:21:11 am by Gemmtech »
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Schewe

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Re: pc or mac
« Reply #62 on: January 17, 2011, 12:26:17 am »

That in itself does not make one a zealot, I was referring to your other statements, maybe you were just being insidious or facetious?

Facetious...

And I'm pretty serious when I compare platform wars to politics or Nikon vs Canon discussions...well, sort of serious (although I'll admit that for the first time since I was 18, I registered and voted in 2008...for Obama).

:~)
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Gemmtech

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Re: pc or mac
« Reply #63 on: January 17, 2011, 01:14:05 am »

Oh no NOT politics!   ;D  I have voted every election since age 18, I feel that if I want to voice my opinion, I have to vote.  I have only liked one presidential candidate ever and that was Ross Perot, I'm independent, but closer to a republican than a democrat.  My wife (now ex) voted for Obama and I just couldn't understand, she's one of the most intelligent people I know.  I think Nikon vs. Canon is similar, however the prices seem to be a lot closer than the Mac vs. PC comparison.  I used Nikon for about 25+ years and then when I went digital DSLR I switched over to Canon (probably because of the LL), as luck would have it I had the back focus issue on my 10D, switched back to Nikon and haven't looked back since.  I always drove a Ford pick up truck, then in 2008 I took a GMC Sierra Denali for a test drive, liked it and decided to switch, I asked them to order me one with a 6-1/2 foot bed, they said "That's not available, only 5.5 feet" that killed that sale, bought a Lincoln LT instead, I needed at least a 6.5' bed.  I'm just one of those people who doesn't fall in love with any company or product and am always willing to test new products.    
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 09:23:09 am by Gemmtech »
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: pc or mac
« Reply #64 on: January 17, 2011, 10:17:39 am »

Seriously, if app availability isn't an issue (such as using Adobe software), which platform would YOU prefer to boot in?
For me, it's whichever one I'm more familiar with. ;)

Eric
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Gemmtech

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Re: pc or mac
« Reply #65 on: January 17, 2011, 10:31:26 am »

Pascalf,

I read through some of your posts again and I want to clarify a few things.  I don't believe Windows is a better OS than the Mac OS and I don't believe I have ever said that, If I did, I apologize.  Until Jeff asked me nobody knew which OS I preferred.  I don't believe that because Windows can run Ansys and Mac can't that means Windows is better and more stable.  It is true that Apple has some software that is exclusive to the Mac, I believe that is done because they have a market for that software, but there does seem to be options available for PC users that are just as good if not better than those apps. MS Office is ported to Mac, I almost believe MS did that because of the antitrust issues they were having, but it was HUGE for Apple to get office.

So what have I been saying?

What my point has been, that as of Today, now January 17, 2011 I can't think of a rational reason to buy a Mac; I'm speaking of the individual, IOW, don't translate that into, yeah but we have a company with 50 people and all use Macs and it would cost a lot to switch to PCs, etc.  I'm talking hardware, let's face the facts I just bought another copy of Snow Leopard and it was $29.00 and I bought an OEM version of Windows 7 Ultimate 64 bit and I think that was about $175.00, I don't believe that Windows is 6x better.  The one rational reason to buy a Mac that was mentioned was software, what if you had a major investment in software, so I capitulate on those grounds, however I did say the difference in hardware costs could compensate for PC software purchases.  I believe (Jeff correct me if I'm wrong) that Photoshop will allow a license transfer from Mac to PC and vice versa.  I can understand that change isn't a walk in the park and changing OS which means changing software isn't that easy.  I will stand by the statement that I can build or purchase a PC that has much better components that is substantially less expensive than a Mac Pro, runs faster, is more reliable and stable.  I believe what I have said is that the OS are close enough to call equal.  I don't believe anybody who says their computer has never crashed or broken down if they "use" it.  

And, how does a Mac user ever get to know if a Mac is reliable over the long haul?  I bet Jeff and most other Mac users buy a new Mac Pro every year or two, because one thing I do know, when Apple announces a new product, the line to buy it starts before it's even manufactured.  ;)

If you had purchased a 2007 Mercedes GL450 and you read the owners manual in order to set the clock, you couldn't do it, why?  Because the process that Mercedes printed was erroneous, it was translated incorrectly from German to English.  I just found a similar issue with the navigation on a 2010 Porsche Cayenne.  What's the point?  Pascalf, stop trying to translate what I am saying, just read it for what it is.

Remember when over 10% of all Apples were bought back or repaired under warranty?  Quality control was horrible, yet I never spoke to a Mac user who said anything other than "Macs never break down and they never crash"

I don't dispute that the "Desktop Publishing" arena is still majority "owned" or should be say the majority is by Apple (Jeff, please tell me if I'm misusing the term Desktop Publishing) but I don't believe this encompasses the entire group of "creatives" I believe it's just a part and I believe that the PC market has grown substantially in this market.

I will say that I believe of all the larger computer companies Apple has the best customer service, they treat me extremely well.  I don't like their policy when a hard drive fails under warranty; take the machine in, they check it out, tell you that the hard drive is DOA (as I told them) they explain that they can send the hard drive to one of the Apple authorized data recovery companies, cost is about $2500-$4000 and they retain the hard drive (re: they retain all your personal information) I asked if I could keep the hard drive and they said "NO" I opted not to have the hard drive replaced under warranty and I paid an authorized Apple repair facility $150.00 to replace the hard drive and I kept mine, since then I repair all Macs myself.  I recovered the data myself, total cost?  $20.00.  Other than that I like Apple's customer service, actually I think it's the best.  I haven't looked it up in a long time, see if the numbers back me up on that?  
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 10:36:19 am by Gemmtech »
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Gemmtech

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Re: pc or mac
« Reply #66 on: January 17, 2011, 11:49:36 am »

This was just posted today, it kind of says most if not all the reasons why a PC is a much better value and overall purchase.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2375693,00.asp
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Schewe

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Re: pc or mac
« Reply #67 on: January 17, 2011, 12:21:04 pm »

This was just posted today, it kind of says most if not all the reasons why a PC is a much better value and overall purchase.

Not really, the article is just parroting the typical price, more software, build it yourself and "games" arguments that are typical of the PC Weenie magazine...I mean, they think IE is good? Really?
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Pascalf

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Re: pc or mac
« Reply #68 on: January 17, 2011, 12:25:24 pm »

Several points, in no particular order:

"I am not saying Gemmtech has no valid points in his/ her posts.  I'm alluding to the re-occuring theme that your personal/ professional/ IT experience SUPERCEDES all other."

If I have valid points then don't post a childish response.  Anybody who has a large enough sample size can NOT say that Apples don't crash and they don't break down.  You can't deny the math.
- I have NEVER stated that Apple computer do not crash.  It was not my intention if I did.
- I will re-iterate: all computers /operating systems crash.  For me, the difference between operating systems and hardware, is what you can do [and what tools you have] to get yourself back up and running again, preferably to a stable state.  Also, the frequency at which issues occur [hardware and/or software].
- Stability for me is very important because the nature of being the visual effects tech is to provide/ perform events, for an audience, where nothing goes wrong.  In the audio-visual 'world', "You are only as good as your last show".  Same applies for editing [don't blow deadlines], and renders/ SFX [renders are critical path].
- Me and 'Gemmtech' are not doing the same 'math'.  I am NOT stating your experience is not valid to YOU, Gemmtech.   I am stating that your experience is not relevant to MY decision logic, and that MY experience does not match yours, in terms of reliability/ failure rates, MTBF [Mean Time Between Failures], and long term durability.
- I an NOT stating that my experience is more important that the owners' OWN experience.


"If you want to think of the ultimate difference between Mac vs PC, current Macs CAN run Windows (if you really need to) but "PC boxes" will NEVER be able to run Mac OS's." 

For Pascalf's benefit, I know this personally to be false.
- I agree with "Gemmtech", "tived" and "Farmer": you CAN run OS X in non- Apple hardware, though it is not supported and you do have to choose your hardware carefully [because of the drivers].  The recent example: the Dell Mini 9, which can be turned into a very interesting small portable.
- Personally, I still consider Radius Genesis as the prime example as to what other companies could bring [and did, for OS9 at the time] to the OS X experience, hardware-wise.  Apple is not all knowing, though their design is very, very good.


Reality.

At work we have 500 plus PCs and less than 20 Macs. We have a nice big IT department, all PC trained. The Macs are all 10.6 and of course the PCs are all Windows XP. Says it all doesn't it.

Cheers,
- I don't know what that means, or what it says.
- there are many ways this could go: that the version of Windows is XP [instead of Windows 7]?  That OS X 10.6 needs no IT?
- "tom  b", please expand/ explain.


 I believe ALL hard drives will and do fail, however I haven't yet experienced a SCSI hard drive failure in 12 years and with my sample size I'd say that SCSI HD are much more reliable than IDE or SATA and again the math doesn't lie.
- in my experience [similar to "Gemmtech"], SCSI drive are much more reliable that IDE/ SATA
- SCSI drives are built to higher standards and test to much better MTBF
- SCSI drives cost much more in terms of cost per MB


Every company that I have visited that use Macs, they have an IT department and Apple has the "genius" bar, if Macs never break down or crash why have them?
- The "Genius Bar" is also there to be a resource for questions that the usual floor personnel cannot answer, like "what are the speed improvements between Core 2 Duo and i5?" as it pertains to a 17" MacBook.  I'll spare you what I was told, though it did remind me what Apple considers 'important' for their MacBook Pro line


Pascalf,

What is your age?
- old enough to have greying hair


And, how does a Mac user ever get to know if a Mac is reliable over the long haul?
- for me, by using 'a Mac' over the long haul
- I'm typing this post on a six year old [17"] PowerBook G4
- I tend to change portable and workstation on a five to six year cycle, three years apart.  Next up: [this] portable.  In three years: the workstation.
- the cycles can vary if there is a big technological reason for a machine change.  For Apple, like the processor change to Intel.


Personally, I still miss my Amigas, which were amazing and saw me leave Apple at the time.  They're coming back, sort of, and I can't wait :-)
- Amigas did usher the age of affordable video editing and accessible 3D [with Newtek Video Toaster and Lightwave 3D]
- Jack Tramiel!
- Futures past



Regards,
Pascal
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 12:29:16 pm by Pascalf »
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Gemmtech

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Re: pc or mac
« Reply #69 on: January 17, 2011, 01:26:14 pm »

Pascalf, you certainly missed a lot of what I wrote.  Numbers are numbers and the math just doesn't lie, people do, or people embellish their experience.  Prior to 2006 I had no personal experience with Macs failure rates, sure I read the reports and the like, but I was 100% PC.  I am always curious as to global results and to see if my experiences (not just personal use) match a larger sampling than my own.  I didn't start forming any kind of opinion until AFTER a lot of experience using / repairing both platforms and what I found is that I was brainwashed into believe Macs were more reliable, stable and of higher quality than a typical PC. 

"Stability for me is very important because the nature of being the visual effects tech is to provide/ perform events, for an audience, where nothing goes wrong.  In the audio-visual 'world', "You are only as good as your last show".  Same applies for editing [don't blow deadlines], and renders/ SFX [renders are critical path]."

I don't mean to minimize your field, but seriously, it's not what most would consider "mission critical".  If you have a crash during a presentation for an audience, they'll live, if you know what I mean.

"Workstation-wise for Windows based machines, I have no great guidelines, seeing that I have always based my workstations on OS X based hardware.  There are component level items I will put forth:"

I guess I would ask you, how many PCs using Windows or Linux OS do you currently service?  What is your per unit failure rate?  Of all the systems you supply what are the number of problems per 100?  Just curious, can you break them down per hardware and OS?  It just seems from what you have written you have very little experience with PCs, so how do you form an opinion of their reliability?  You used the term "always based my workstations on OS X"  I can see why we aren't doing the same math!

"Me and 'Gemmtech' are not doing the same 'math'.  I am NOT stating your experience is not valid to YOU, Gemmtech."

You are stating the obvious!  ;D    My experience is valid to a lot more people than just me.  Think of it as constuction, let's say that I install 1000 faucets and 500 are Moen and 500 are Delta, that will be enough of a sample size to determine which is more reliable especially over a 3-5 year period of time.  Let's say that I service 50 Delta faucets within 2 years and only 10 Moen, don't you think my customers will benefit from my knowledge and experience?  It's NOT about just me. 

"First, I don't mind ANY operating system if it is perceived by the customer/ user to be:
- stable,
- reliable,
- consitent in its' use."

Does this really make any sense?  If my customer perceives a product as reliable and I know it's very unreliable I would mind and I would advise him/her not to use it.

"Eg.: I've used Windows NT when I was working at a high end animation tool company, and I did not mind its' use: it was stable, quite reliable, and consistent in its' use."

I must admit Windows has only become more stable, reliable and consistent since then.

"In my experience, this holds true.

One of the main reasons I use Macs is because most other users/ clients in the field of graphics use Macs.  I learned from professionals, and they used Macs [for graphics].  I had a choice after using both, and went Mac [for most things]."

So you are a follower?  A conformist? 

I'll reiterate, once the sample size becomes large enough the numbers wont be skewed globally generally speaking.  Ever listen to the numbers for who "they" believe will be elected to office?  It's very rare today that the numbers are off by a wide margin, IOW, if a candidate is leading in the polls by 20 points, heck 10 points, he will win the election, that doesn't mean they polled every voter.  Toyota dealership A will not have a problem per car rate of 175 and dealership B 100, it just wont happen, but I know what a Toyota zealot would say, "Well Dealership A that's YOUR experience, that's only valid to you"  Toyota will say the numbers all match (in a car restoration that's important) and so then the numbers mean something to everybody. 

So, when you state that

Pascal states
"always based my workstations on OS X based hardware"

I tend to doubt you have enough knowledge to form a basis for your opinion, get my point? 


"MTBF [Mean Time Between Failures],"  Thanks for spelling that out for me!  ::)

"The "Genius Bar" is also there to be a resource for questions that the usual floor personnel cannot answer, like "what are the speed improvements between Core 2 Duo and i5?" as it pertains to a 17" MacBook."

LOL, You are joking right?  So, you call or go online, make an appointment to go to the "Genius Bar", carry in your computer to ask them " what are the speed improvements between Core 2 Duo and i5?" as it pertains to a 17" MacBook "  ???  That's funny, that's really funny.  I have seen a person or two ask questions, but the overwhelming majority have their hardware with them.

"for me, by using 'a Mac' over the long haul"

I was being facetious and I think you missed it.  Obviously Apple has a reputation (earned) for creating a great demand for their latest and greatest products.  Look at the IPad, I've used one and I still can't understand what the reason was for buying one.  I originally thought most bought it as an e-reader but then somewhere I read that 40% of IPad owners also have a "Kindle", I've talked to several IPad owners and I'm not sure they know why they own it!  But boy they have sold a ton of them.  Wait until Verizon releases the IPhone on Feb. 10th.  The Apple marketing machine is phenomenal, as I said even when they were making lousy products (A well known fact) I never heard anything other than "Apples are much better than PCs, they never crash and are .........................." 

"Not really, the article is just parroting the typical price, more software, build it yourself and "games" arguments that are typical of the PC Weenie magazine...I mean, they think IE is good? Really?"

"Parroting"? OK, I'm fine with that word, at the end of the day what PC Mag says is all true.  Can't argue the price issue, there's definitely more software, gaming does drive the latest and greatest hardware advances and one can get more PC for less money, Value.  I do build a lot of gaming machines and those people are fanatics, maybe more so than Mac users!  They are very creative types and even have a great concern with how the case will look, they could never buy a Mac because the case is too bland, they say for a "conformist"  ;) I must admit, I have to start using IE again, just to keep up to date, I've been bad, I use Firefox exclusively and have every client / friend / family member using it as well.  I've read some positive reviews about IE, but I haven't been using it for years. 

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Farmer

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Re: pc or mac
« Reply #70 on: January 17, 2011, 02:16:17 pm »

I mean, they think IE is good? Really?

Try IE 9.  It really is good, Jeff, even in beta.
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Phil Brown

Gemmtech

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Re: pc or mac
« Reply #71 on: January 17, 2011, 02:28:43 pm »

Pascalf and other Mac users, I'm curious if your experiences regarding the following match or are similar to mine?

Pre Windows 7 and SSDs

1.  Mac OS boots a hell of a lot faster than Windows.  Average boot time less than 30 seconds
2.  Mac OS is better integrated for IPods, IPhones, IPads and Quick Time.
3.  It is easier and faster to install and uninstall programs using the Mac OS. (the caveat, you have to know how)
4.  Macs tend NOT to use the latest and greatest hardware components.
5.  Mac OS shuts down a lot quicker than Windows.  Average time, less than 3 seconds
6.  Mac OS awakens from "sleep" (hibernation) a lot quicker than Windows.
7.  Mac users prefer non-glossy monitors and laptop screens.
8.  The IMac is the nicest looking all in one computer.
9.  The MBP doen't have integrated numeric keyboard and this is unimportant to a Mac user?
10. You can't get a BluRay player installed from Apple and that is unimportant to a Mac user?
11. Apple stock has done very well over the past 10 years!!!

I bet I won't get any argument regarding the aforementioned?  

I have a feeling what happened is that many years ago Macs were a lot easier to use than PCs, they had the first GUI (I think) and most if not all in the desktop publishing arena used a Mac, they probably were more reliable, stable and maybe even used better components.  That will bias anybody with any product.  I came along to the Mac party very late indeed and so all the wars 1976-2006 MS vs. Apple I missed, sure I read about them and heard how great Macs were, but I wasn't on the front lines.  Microsoft made major progress and obviously Apple decided not to license their OS and closed all the Mac clone makers many years ago, though if memory serves me correctly Apple within the past year or two shut down an Apple Clone Co.?  Unimportant.   Microsoft started catching up to Mac in user friendliness, reliability, stability etc. to the point that a lot of pundits claim they surpassed Apple.  My point is today they are both great OS and I actually give the edge to windows for the reasons I've mentioned before, we expect so much more of Windows, we expect it to run every program and support every piece of hardware with nary a problem and it does.  The Mac OS has to run Apple hardware, that's it (supported by Apple) sure you can upgrade, but what is then covered under warranty?  Don't try to get your hardware covered under Apple's warranty if you have Windows only installed.  As I have stated, I believe the OS are so close as to call them equal.  I agree that your past can bias your opinion.  

I guess I was wrong, it seems you can still buy a Mac Clone

http://quocomputer.com/

And the one I couldn't think of was Psystar http://www.tuaw.com/2010/09/10/psystar-is-dead-long-live-quo-computer/

« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 02:40:40 pm by Gemmtech »
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Pascalf

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Re: pc or mac
« Reply #72 on: January 17, 2011, 02:37:45 pm »

I'll try to be clear.  My Mileage May Vary.

Pascalf, you certainly missed a lot of what I wrote.  Numbers are numbers and the math just doesn't lie, people do, or people embellish their experience. 
- provide actual, verifiable numbers.
- math, statistics, and science require repeatability.
- you are one of the few in this thread to 'know' everyone else "people embellish their experience", without actual, verifiable numbers.  Show us.

I don't mean to minimize your field, but seriously, it's not what most would consider "mission critical".  If you have a crash during a presentation for an audience, they'll live, if you know what I mean.
- I said "critical path": as in, the next step does not occur without this critical render/ graphic element being done.
- [as it pertains to Luminous Landscape threads,] no one dies in the field of graphics.  Or photogrpahy.  Or choosing an operating system.  Or choosing a computer.  This is a photography site.
- my professional reputation, on the other hand, does take a 'hit' and gets knocked down a few notches.  Ouch.


"First, I don't mind ANY operating system if it is perceived by the customer/ user to be:
- stable,
- reliable,
- consistent in its' use."

Does this really make any sense  If my customer perceives a product as reliable and I know it's very unreliable I would mind and I would advise him/her not to use it.
- if the client want a Windows, Linux or OS X computer, that is what they get.
- I am there to build to the clients' spec.
- I will advise/ direct clients away from bad hardware
- I have to *convince* the client to change operating system.  I don't impose.
- I'll state this again: the operating system, by itself, is not enough to predict the reliability/ stability of a computer.


So, when you state that

Pascal states
"always based my workstations on OS X based hardware"

I tend to doubt you have enough knowledge to form a basis for your opinion, get my point?
- I'll state this again:
    Your experience does NOT supersede mine because you say it does, for ME.  You are not "Pascalf".
    My experience does NOT supersede yours because I say it does, for YOU.  I am not "Gemmtech".
- Your "point" has little weight: it is very different than mine.
- I cannot empathize when my experience, and the experience of everyone I know, greatly differs from what you state you consider valid experience.  This works both ways.


LOL, You are joking right?  So, you call or go online, make an appointment to go to the "Genius Bar", carry in your computer to ask them " what are the speed improvements between Core 2 Duo and i5?" as it pertains to a 17" MacBook "   That's funny, that's really funny.  I have seen a person or two ask questions, but the overwhelming majority have their hardware with them.
- No appointment.  I walk into an Apple store, talk to 'Apple people'.  They think an 'Apple Genius' can better answer my question, I get referred to such 'Genius'.
- An Apple MacBook Pro  currently lists at about $2200CDN.  I do research before making a purchase of that size.
- for me, talking to people/ users is a preference over reading items on-line: the discussion is immediate.  The person is accountable for their words, they bring their experience and can show/ demo examples of some claims right there, on the spot, using the available computers.
- "in person" is not the only source of information/ data, it is one of several.
- yes, the majority of people bring problems and issues to a section of the store dedicated to 'problems and issues'. [emoticon here]


"Not really, the article is just parroting the typical price, more software, build it yourself and "games" arguments that are typical of the PC Weenie magazine...I mean, they think IE is good? Really?"

that quote is from "Schewe", here

Not really, the article is just parroting the typical price, more software, build it yourself and "games" arguments that are typical of the PC Weenie magazine...I mean, they think IE is good? Really?
- not mine
- my current opinion: use whatever browser works for you


The Apple marketing machine is phenomenal, as I said even when they were making lousy products (A well known fact) I never heard anything other than "Apples are much better than PCs, they never crash and are .........................."
- you state: "I never heard anything other than "Apples are, . . ."
and
Numbers are numbers and the math just doesn't lie, people do, or people embellish their experience.
- you state: "Numbers are numbers and the math just doesn't lie, people do, or people embellish their experience."

I state: show us these numbers.

My 'numbers', where I attempt to show Apple is not a horrible computer hardware choice:
http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2010/02/22/apple-is-no-1-in-reliability-survey/
and
http://www.pcworld.com/article/211074/the_tech_brands_you_can_trust.html

In my personal experience, I quite like Sony and Toshiba, and despise Dell.  I have stated this in prior posts on this thread.
    I have adored Sony [electronics] much longer than I have liked Apple [computers].  Sonys' Trinitron has won an Emmy: show me the Apple Emmy! [another emoticon here]


Regards,
Pascal


What is this?
"Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post."
-D'oh!
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Pascalf

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Re: pc or mac, The "Gemmtech" survey edition
« Reply #73 on: January 17, 2011, 02:56:50 pm »

The "Gemmtech" survey edition

Pascalf and other Mac users, I'm curious if your experiences regarding the following match or are similar to mine?

Pre Windows 7 and SSDs

1.  Mac OS boots a hell of a lot faster than Windows.  Average boot time less than 30 seconds
2.  Mac OS is better integrated for IPods, IPhones, IPads and Quick Time.
3.  It is easier and faster to install and uninstall programs using the Mac OS. (the caveat, you have to know how)
4.  Macs tend NOT to use the latest and greatest hardware components.
5.  Mac OS shuts down a lot quicker than Windows.  Average time, less than 3 seconds
6.  Mac OS awakens from "sleep" (hibernation) a lot quicker than Windows.
7.  Mac users prefer non-glossy monitors and laptop screens.
8.  The IMac is the nicest looking all in one computer.
9.  The MBP doen't have integrated numeric keyboard and this is unimportant to a Mac user?
10. You can't get a BluRay player installed from Apple and that is unimportant to a Mac user?


1.  Mac OS boots a hell of a lot faster than Windows.  Average boot time less than 30 seconds
- [disregarding login dialog]  about the same, though OS X is usually faster.

2.  Mac OS is better integrated for IPods, IPhones, IPads and Quick Time.
- Yes.


3.  It is easier and faster to install and uninstall programs using the Mac OS. (the caveat, you have to know how)
- Yes.
- Same for OS9 [compared to Windows of equivalent version]


4.  Macs tend NOT to use the latest and greatest hardware components.
- Correct.  The delay for Apple to integrate new technologies or new versions of hardware is ever present [if hardware not from Apple]


5.  Mac OS shuts down a lot quicker than Windows.  Average time, less than 3 seconds
- "Shutdown", not "Sleep": for me, average of ten or so seconds
- "Sleep" is three seconds average, if that

6.  Mac OS awakens from "sleep" (hibernation) a lot quicker than Windows.
- Yes.

7.  Mac users prefer non-glossy monitors and laptop screens.
- "prefer non-glossy": for colour acurate, matte.  For everyone else, it's actually quite random, when a choice is available.


8.  The IMac is the nicest looking all in one computer.
- compared to what?
- most iMac users I know choose it [mostly] because of the compact/ convenience factor(s)


9.  The MBP doen't have integrated numeric keyboard and this is unimportant to a Mac user?
- in video editing, it was quite the issue
- these days, not so much.  The reason: bluetooth numeric keypads are popular/ available


10. You can't get a BluRay player installed from Apple and that is unimportant to a Mac user?
- the operating system [OS X] supports the mechanisms
- not the Blu-ray [files] playback standard
- I usually install [bul-ray] burners for archival/ backup

Again, this is from my experience, clients, and people/ users I know.

Regards,
Pascal
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Gemmtech

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Re: pc or mac
« Reply #74 on: January 17, 2011, 03:27:43 pm »

"- provide actual, verifiable numbers.
- math, statistics, and science require repeatability.
- you are one of the few in this thread to 'know' everyone else "people embellish their experience", without actual, verifiable numbers.  Show us."

Can't you at the very least come up with something on your own?  I asked you just to publish your numbers because you stated and I quote

 "I almost exclusively use Apple as the core of the workstation"

then you stated just one paragraph down.

"seeing that I have always based my workstations on OS X based hardware."

So I asked how much experience you have with Windows based PCs, especially workstations when you claim to ALWAYS use OS X hardware?

You can certainly get the actual Apple numbers can't you?  Are you resourceful enough?  How could I verify my own internal numbers for your benefit?  I'll give them to you, but I think yours would be more interesting because of your prior claims mentioned above.

"I said "critical path": as in, the next step does not occur without this critical render/ graphic element being done."

I know EXACTLY what you said and I know where "Critical Path" comes from and I know the precursor to it was the "Manhattan Project"  
I was referencing

"in mission critical setups.  In this case, the mission is to edit a daily show like a news show or edit a graphics heavy 30 minute video.  The station fails, no show, no money [or a loss of a client].  Workstations usually cost about $20,000 turnkey"

as I said, I don't believe you can qualify that as "Mission Critical" it's one of those terms, like the word "Genius" it's overused to describe what amounts to be not much above average.  No big deal.  I suppose in life (US anyhow) people get too wrapped up in what they are doing and everything is "mission critical"  

"if the client want a Windows, Linux or OS X computer, that is what they get."

Ok, fair enough, how often do you provide a Windows or Linux machine?  What are your percentages of Mac OS vs Windows vs. Linux?

- I am there to build to the clients' spec.
- I will advise/ direct clients away from bad hardware
- I have to *convince* the client to change operating system.  I don't impose.

"- I'll state this again: the operating system, by itself, is not enough to predict the reliability/ stability of a computer."

I totally agree, that's why I have said 1000x I'm OS agnostic, my issue with Macs were the cost of the hardware for what you get!

"I'll state this again:
    Your experience does NOT supersede mine because you say it does, for ME.  You are not "Pascalf".
    My experience does NOT supersede yours because I say it does, for YOU.  I am not "Gemmtech".
- Your "point" has little weight: it is very different than mine.
- I cannot empathize when my experience, and the experience of everyone I know, greatly differs from what you state you consider valid experience.  This works both ways."

But isn't that idiotic (no offense) If in 2005 I had stated "Windows based PCs are much more stable, reliable and better built than Macs" wouldn't that be an idiotic statement if I had no experience with Macs?  You have said in a couple sentences and I'll post them again,

"I almost exclusively use Apple as the core of the workstation"

"seeing that I have always based my workstations on OS X based hardware."

So how does one claim how much more stable a Mac is than a Windows machine?  

"No appointment.  I walk into an Apple store, talk to 'Apple people'.  They think an 'Apple Genius' can better answer my question, I get referred to such 'Genius'."

Must not be a very busy Apple store, because every store that I visit they highly recommend you make an appointment.  However I suppose there are times during the day that aren't as busy, but if I were carrying in hardware I'd have an appointment, like I do with my cars.

"I state: show us these numbers."

Ok, now read what I wrote above,

"I will say that I believe of all the larger computer companies Apple has the best customer service, they treat me extremely well."

Isn't that amazing?  The national numbers agree with what I say, WOW!!!!  Imagine if I would have stated how I felt about Apple customer service after my first visit to the Apple store for warranty work?  I would have said "In my experience Apple has the worst service of any computer company"  but I didn't say that because it's a sampling of one!!!  You don't seem to grasp the fact that I don't voice an opinion based upon the number one (1).  And yes, I will listen to somebody with a vast amount of experience.  

Now read this,

http://nybw.businessweek.com/technology/ByteOfTheApple/blog/archives/2007/08/is_apples_customer_satisfaction_slipping.html

And this

http://www.groubal.com/top-10-customer-service-complaints-twitter/

And this

http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2010/02/22/apple-is-no-1-in-reliability-survey/

Now go back and look at Apples prior customer service numbers (yes, I took the time to look them up)  You don't think Apple was going bankrupt because they were making the best computers in the world at a good price point, do you?  Seriously, a computer which rarely if ever breaks down or crashes, WOW, and they almost went bankrupt.  Could it be that at one point their computers and even the Mac OS had some serious problems?  Of course they did, but I guarantee at the time one would be hard pressed to find a Mac user saying anything other than "They are the best, they never crash............"  




  









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Gemmtech

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Re: pc or mac
« Reply #75 on: January 17, 2011, 03:34:52 pm »

Pascalf,  

You can call it the "survey edition" I was just making a point.  None of what I wrote was formed by the basis of using or repairing one Mac or one PC and as I noted prior to Windows 7 and SSDs because that changes everything as far as boot, shut down and awakening from hibernation times.  It is amazing how much we agree with each other; and then you get pugnacious and turn it into an OS war whereas I'm OS agnostic.  My claim has been very to the point and simple, I can purchase and or build a Windows based PC for a lot less money than a comparable Mac, the PC will have better components, it'll be more reliable and stable.  I know that Macs break down and the OS crashes as do PCs and Windows.  

http://www.macintouch.com/reliability/

Much better today don't you think?  And their financial situation would seem to back that up!  However, marketing and design still play a huge roll.

I have found that when you question the hell out of a typical Mac user, you will find they have no PC experience.  I've made no claims that the Mac OS isn't stable or reliable and I'm not adverse to using it for "mission critical" tasks.  Pascalf I can tell you both Windows and Mac OS are basically equal and I see nothing in any statistics to prove otherwise.  I can tell you that the Mac/Mac OS has a few more strange idiosyncrasies than windows, but I'll freely admit, once you know what they are, it's not that big of a deal.  For instance, let's say your Mac wont turn on, remove the 110v plug for 10-15 seconds, then plug it back in while simultaneously pressing the power button, let boot, it'll sound like a jet taking off, that's just the fan, unplug and restart, everything is fine!  Nothing quite like it with a PC, but again I don't make a big deal out of it.  

"- if the client want a Windows, Linux or OS X computer, that is what they get."

So, if you know that a Windows PC is very unstable and unreliable you'd sell it to your client because they asked for it?  What if they told you that they wanted a Mac and were planning on using software you knew wouldn't work on a Mac, would you sell him the Mac anyhow or tell him you couldn't do business because what he wanted wouldn't work?  I want do something I know I'll have problems with, PERIOD, I don't care what the client wants, I'm the expert and if they don't trust my opinion they need to go somewhere else!

I'm just curious how one forms an opinion regarding a PC when he states he always uses OS X based hardware?  Pascalf, obviously you believe that the Mac OS is much more stable and reliable than Windows, I'm just curious how you know this to be true?  I suppose you also believe that Mac hardware is better and more reliable than what PC users have access to?  How did you come to that conclusion?  Prior to 2006 I somewhat believed both were possible, but didn't form my own opinion until I had a large enough user base to decide.  


« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 04:31:02 pm by Gemmtech »
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Dennis Carbo

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Re: pc or mac
« Reply #76 on: January 17, 2011, 04:32:54 pm »

"I can purchase and or build a Windows based PC for a lot less money than a comparable Mac, the PC will have better components, it'll be more reliable and stable."
 
less money absolutely, better components - maybe, more reliable and stable -no chance, unless you run Os X on your PC box

The claim that any Windows OS is more reliable and stable than OS X seems pretty unlikely - you dont really sound free of OS bias  ;)

I will admit i am not , i just wont trust microsoft for releasing crap time and time again....no time for it....what i do now works and its Os X
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Pascalf

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Re: pc or mac
« Reply #77 on: January 17, 2011, 05:22:00 pm »

A few points:

It is amazing how much we agree with each other; and then you get pugnacious and turn it into an OS war whereas I'm OS agnostic.
- I have repeatedly stated that everyones' experience is their own, and that peoples' experience is not easily transferable to others if it is not similar.
- there is no operating system "war"
- my main focus is both software and hardware working together


I can purchase and or build a Windows based PC for a lot less money than a comparable Mac, the PC will have better components, it'll be more reliable and stable.
- my issues [with your opinions] have always been about your claim to better reliability and stability compared to any other operating system.
- lowest cost is not the main, or only, consideration for many of my clients

I know that Macs break down and the OS crashes as do PCs and Windows.
- my experience forms my opinion
- your experience forms your opinion
- there are many similarities, and many differences
- on the point above, we agree


I totally agree, that's why I have said 1000x I'm OS agnostic, my issue with Macs were the cost of the hardware for what you get!
- my issue [with your opinion] is NOT COST
- it is reliability, stability
- your experience with Apple products is very different than my experience with Apple products


But isn't that idiotic (no offense) If in 2005 I had stated "Windows based PCs are much more stable, reliable and better built than Macs" wouldn't that be an idiotic statement if I had no experience with Macs?  You have said in a couple sentences and I'll post them again,

"I almost exclusively use Apple as the core of the workstation"

"seeing that I have always based my workstations on OS X based hardware."

So how does one claim how much more stable a Mac is than a Windows machine?
- most of my clients are former Windows users
- you do not assemble many Apple computers, so this logic also applies to you


And yes, I will listen to somebody with a vast amount of experience.
- I agree
- I do not consider third parties [i.e.: people I don't know and can't contact] valid experience.  I have based my profession in information gathered by me or people I know I can trust, people who have gained my respect.
- to gain respect with others, I have to prove or show the logic of my opinion
- the way I do that [apart from referrals] is to build/ assemble a computer and let the client see/ feel/ experience the difference.  I CANNOT barge in and IMPOSE a solution: most of my client are professionals, and I have to follow their basic specs.

    So when you state that
Macs are overpriced and people who buy them do so based on an emotional need.  I will probably NEVER buy another MAC because there's no need to.
that is not similar to my experience, or anyone I [personally] know.

My experience forms my opinion, just as your experience forms yours.

My opinion, from my experience, is that my clients are happy with what I've done for them.

Your opinion, from your experience, is that your clients are happy with what you've done for them.


There is no operating system "war".



My issue is you claiming that people who do not agree with your statements are "emotional" or "Zealots"
or
"For me, it's Mac OS X. Does that make me a zealot? I'm not sure it does..."

That in itself does not make one a zealot, I was referring to your other statements, maybe you were just being insidious or facetious?
- according to "Gemmtech", everyones' opinion which does not match the Gemmtech opinion cannot be accurate, and is based on things other that their user experience.
- you do not have a monopoly on user experience.  Do you?


You are stating the obvious!  ;D    My experience is valid to a lot more people than just me.
- everyone who respects you will agree
- convince people with something other than "I know and everyone else is wrong"



I'll simplify:
I never said MAC users don't make rational purchasing decisions, I said that today in 2011, there's no rational reason to buy a MAC.  Again, this shouldn't be insulting to anybody.
- you should not be insulted if anyone thinks Apple products work well for them.
- I have no issues with your experience with Apple, Sony Dell, Toshiba products being very different than mine [and everyone I know].


This is not a "war".


Regards,
Pascal

Post Scriptum: Attribute to me what I've actually stated.  Thanks.
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Gemmtech

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Re: pc or mac
« Reply #78 on: January 17, 2011, 06:27:05 pm »

"less money absolutely, better components - maybe, more reliable and stable -no chance, unless you run Os X on your PC box"

Well, if you are saying less money "absolutely" than obviously I can spend more money for better components!  

"The claim that any Windows OS is more reliable and stable than OS X seems pretty unlikely - you dont really sound free of OS bias"

I don't know who has made the claim that Windows OS is more reliable and or stable than the Mac OS, but I haven't.  What I have said is that Windows and Mac OS are so close as to consider them equal.

"I will admit i am not , i just wont trust microsoft for releasing crap time and time again....no time for it....what i do now works and its Os X"

I appreciate your honesty, people don't usually buy from companies that they don't trust, but maybe next time try a nicely configured PC using the Windows OS, you probably will be pleasantly surprised.

"- I have repeatedly stated that everyones' experience is their own, and that peoples' experience is not easily transferable to others if it is not similar.
- there is no operating system "war"
- my main focus is both software and hardware working together"

This simply is not true.  If you sell 10,000 computers to 10,000 separate users you have 10,000 unique experiences, INDIVIDUALLY their experiences don't tell much, OBVIOUSLY, it's a collection of the individual experiences that tells what does and what doesn't work.  IOW, if you have 10,000 machines out there and 5000 are PCs and 5000 Macs and your rate of hard drive failure is 5% each that will tell a story, especially if all the hard drives are the same make and model.  The 5% of INDIVIDUALS who received the defective hard drives experience will be dissatisfaction and the users who didn't have a failure will be satisfied.  

"- my issues [with your opinions] have always been about your claim to better reliability and stability compared to any other operating system.
- lowest cost is not the main, or only, consideration for many of my clients"

Pascalf, this proves you are not comprehending what I am writing, I've never said that Windows was more reliable or stable, I said they are close enough to call equal.  As far as hardware, I don't build low cost machines, quite the contrary.  I can use higher quality components as can any PC manufacturer and it will cost less than a comparable Mac, though I say comparable, the Mac isn't available with the very best hardware.

"- my experience forms my opinion
- your experience forms your opinion
- there are many similarities, and many differences
- on the point above, we agree"

That's just silly.  Again, it's NOT MY INDIVIDUAL experiences! ???  ???  ???  So are you saying you disagree with my statement
I know that Macs break down and the OS crashes as do PCs and Windows?  Are you saying that you have never had a Mac break down or the Mac OS crash?

"- my issue [with your opinion] is NOT COST
- it is reliability, stability
- your experience with Apple products is very different than my experience with Apple products"

What is my experience with Apple products?  I have found them to be overall very stable and reliable.  I have had several hard drives die, a defective video chip as well as other issues and the OS has crashed, you mean you have NEVER seen that nice colorful spinning wheel?

OK, let's look at how this doesn't make any sense!

I stated

But isn't that idiotic (no offense) If in 2005 I had stated "Windows based PCs are much more stable, reliable and better built than Macs" wouldn't that be an idiotic statement if I had no experience with Macs?  You have said in a couple sentences and I'll post them again,

From Pascalf

"I almost exclusively use Apple as the core of the workstation"

"seeing that I have always based my workstations on OS X based hardware."

I said

So how does one claim how much more stable a Mac is than a Windows machine?

Pascalf

- most of my clients are former Windows users
- you do not assemble many Apple computers, so this logic also applies to you

So you formed your opinion regarding Windows and or PCs based upon most of your clients past experiences?  Why? And what does that tell you about today's PCs using Windows?  So the truth is you have NO experience with Windows PCs, you don't actually sell any and you don't build Windows PCs?  Yet you claim that Macs are more reliable and stable, don't you see the problem here?

I had wondered what you meant when you stated you use Macs as the core of your workstations, originally I thought you had assembled your own Macs, but you don't, you do what I do, you buy them for your clients and upgrade them as needed?  I service a lot of Macs and you would be correct to say many more PCs and what I have found is that the PCs from the larger manufacturers have a lot more problems than machines from smaller companies and I believe Apple is the best of the larger computer makers!  I have more issues with Mac failures than I do my own machines, I attribute that to the fact I do use higher quality components.  I get as many calls regarding Mac OS as I do with Windows as a percentage of the installed base.

"- according to "Gemmtech", everyones' opinion which does not match the Gemmtech opinion cannot be accurate, and is based on things other that their user experience.
- you do not have a monopoly on user experience.  Do you?"

But what is your opinion?  And what is it based on?  You now come clean and state (as you originally said) that you don't assemble Windows PCs, you have no user base, you have no experience with them.  What I had said many times, if your experience is based upon using a Dell, you'd be in trouble.  I don't have a monopoly on user experience, but I do have the experience that you don't, yet you argue with me as though you do!!!  Amazing, everything positive I have to say about the Macs you agree with and I have enough experience to say this is how it is most of the time.  I have had Macs that took over a minute to boot and 45 seconds to shut down, hard drive failures, etc.  But that is not my or my clients typical experience.  The fact is Apple generally supplies (I'd say make, except they don't actually make anything) quality, reliable, stable well made products and the Mac OS works very well.  I'd also say that if you were deciding between a Dell and a Mac, buy the Mac.  

Now, if you are claiming that you have never had a Mac fail or Mac OS crash, I'd say I don't believe you.  It is possible that one or two machines don't crash because like me on some machines I have one or two apps and that's all the PC runs.   For instance my email machine never crashes, but I don't use that as an example because it would be silly.  If you use a Mac or PC and load software on it and install various hardware or peripherals it will crash at times.  It's just impossible to have enough of a user base to never have a failure or crash, there's not a product in the world that can claim 100%.

"- you should not be insulted if anyone thinks Apple products work well for them."

I'm not insulted since I have many Apple products that work well for me!

Pascalf, you are really hung up on this entire "personal experience" issue, but I am not discussing personal experience, had I done that I would never have purchased another Apple product after my first.  I'm discussing my total collection of my clients whose individual user experiences tell me that Windows and Mac OS are very similar, equally stable and reliable.  My user base tells me that my or other small company custom built PCs are of a higher quality and more reliable than Macs, I attribute that to the higher quality components.  And it's not too difficult to figure out which components are better, for instance IDE hard drives fail at a much higher rate, that's why banks always used SCSI.  I have had lower end video cards fail, but never one of the more expensive units.  If the sampling size is large enough the numbers will match.  If there is no user base, then you can't form any kind of opinion, good or bad.  You with PCs is like me with Macs prior to 2006, so it's silly for you to give an opinion about the reliability and stability of a PC utilizing Windows.  








  
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 06:29:14 pm by Gemmtech »
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Schewe

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Re: pc or mac
« Reply #79 on: January 17, 2011, 06:31:14 pm »

Do you suppose you guys could stick to one topic per post? I mean, really...you guys are writing a novel every time you post. Less is more, ya know? Pick a nugget and keep it to 25 words or less or I'll quit playing...
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