Beauty dish: Broncolor or Elinchrom

[jsch]

Hi,

any thoughts when it comes to beauty dish reflectors? I have flash units from Broncolor and Elinchrom. So I have two options:

Broncolor: Beauty Dish Reflector 52 cm | 33.111.00
http://www.broncolor.com/broncolor/products/light-shapers/?tx_bronproducts_pi1[product]=74&tx_bronproducts_pi1[action]=showproduct&tx_bronproducts_pi1[controller]=Products
+ modeling light 300 / 600 W (which I use from time to time as main light)
+ solid connection to the flash head
- only a fixed deflector

Elinchrom: White Softlite 80° 44 cm Beauty Dish
http://www.elinchrom.ch/products.php?p_id=12#content
+ different deflectors which can be changed
- positioning of the deflectors tricky, assistants tend to do it wrong
- connection to the flash head worse than Broncolor
- modeling light only 150/250 W

Can you add +/- points (I'm aware of the difference in price). I have the Elinchrom 70 cm model (White Softlite 82° 70 cm Beauty Dish) and sometimes it is just to big. Has anyone compared the Bron Softlight Reflector P-Soft (33.110.00) to the beauty dish?

I'm going to use it with a LF camera. Consequently I hope I posted it in the right forum.

Thank you,
Johannes

[TMARK]

Try a Mola dish, available in lots of sizes and finishes, fits most brands of flash heads. I like the soft white. Over the years I've tried most dishes.  I find the Mola Demi and Euro to be fantastic, although if you can afford it the Briese Focus 77 is awesome, especially with HMI.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=mola&N=0&InitialSearch=yes

[Dustbak]

I use the Demi & the Seti. Though the Seti emits a wonderful light I notice I really often grab the Demi (with the grid). It is not too big and really versatile next to giving a lovely light (sort of a hotspot with rings of light around it and a nice fall-off). I use the whites too, cannot say how I would find the silver ones. Never tried these.

[TMARK]

I agree with Dustback, the white Mola Demi is really nice.  My favorite reflector.  I use a speedotron grid or grid cloth and some flags to control spill, depending.

I have a Seti and a Euro, and I too find that the Demi is all I need.  I like it for 3/4 and full body shots as well as beauty, the light really is very nice, just behind Briese Focus in my book.

[fredjeang]

I use the Demi & the Seti. Though the Seti emits a wonderful light I notice I really often grab the Demi (with the grid). It is not too big and really versatile next to giving a lovely light (sort of a hotspot with rings of light around it and a nice fall-off). I use the whites too, cannot say how I would find the silver ones. Never tried these.

I wonder where the main difference lays between the white and silver. Is that the silver produce more harsh shadow? The distance seems to play a key role in the "softening" (sorry, can't find another word, ahhh my english...), I mean the closest the softer, no? It would be interested to have some samples with both white and silver.

[Sheldon N]

I'll toss another recommendation for the Mola Demi. Great modifier, I use it on Elinchrom strobes.

[paulmoorestudio]

the mola looks good and a reasonable cost.. I have always used the broncolor and like the satin silver finish with optional diffusion and honeycomb grid that fits it.  very good for a variety of looks. The diffusion is like toughfrost and sometimes too much so I also would shoot through a single silk.

[JerryReed]

 "I mean the closest the softer, no? It would be interested to have some samples with both white and silver."

Broncolor has a helpful learning center that illustrates the effects of various light modifiers on softness (contrast), the central notion is that the larger the light source relative to the subject the softer (less contrasty) the light is.  So, a small light placed close to the subject may equal the contrast of a larger on placed at a greater distance.

In general, a light with a diagonal dimension = X placed at a distance = X yields the softest contrast.  Getting closer does not yield additional softening.  The only consideration then is the size of the subject.  To create the same level of contrast of a larger subject with even lighting, one needs employ a larger light modifier.

Jerry Reed

[fredjeang]

"I mean the closest the softer, no? It would be interested to have some samples with both white and silver."

Broncolor has a helpful learning center that illustrates the effects of various light modifiers on softness (contrast), the central notion is that the larger the light source relative to the subject the softer (less contrasty) the light is.  So, a small light placed close to the subject may equal the contrast of a larger on placed at a greater distance.

In general, a light with a diagonal dimension = X placed at a distance = X yields the softest contrast.  Getting closer does not yield additional softening.  The only consideration then is the size of the subject.  To create the same level of contrast of a larger subject with even lighting, one needs employ a larger light modifier.

Jerry Reed

Thanks Jerry,

Cheers.

[PatrikR]

see if you can find a RONDO from Broncolor. Ancient but good like a round hazylight. Comes with a flash head. It's made out of glassfiber and metal and wood. You can use it with the diffuser or without. Diffuser is self serviceable. Very nice but probably too expensive to manufacture anymore.

I paid about 100 euros for a used unit a couple of years ago, it was and still is in excellent condition though probably from the eighties. I would imagine they were used by portrait studios around the world. Ask around...

[UlfKrentz]

@Johannes,
may be you can tell us, what you´re after. It is almost impossible to make any suggestions without knowing for what you are going to use a specific tool. We own the silver softlight reflector equipped with the eggcrate and use it quite often - for food photography. The counter reflector is mounted with three springs, you could easy take it off and replace it with some selfmade stuff if you like. The reflector is very well made and sturdy. You can also use frosted domes to modify the light quality with your bron lamp bases. There are soooo many possibilities.

@Fred
You are right, light size and working distance go together and "build" the lighting character, the size and form of the shadows. The surface of a reflector, clear or frosted dome etc influences the contrast or brilliance, makes the light more or less "aggressive" (hard to explain for me too, english also is not my mother tongue). For the light quality and fall off I usually prefer a fresnel.

Cheers, Ulf

[JerryReed]

"I want the light slightly harder and narrower than the Elinchrom 70 I'm actually using."

To achieve the look that you are going for "harder" (more contrast) and narrower, covering less of the subject with the direct rays of the parabola of the beauty dish, you do only two things with the 70 cm, dish that you are using now.  You may need to purchase or rent a few items, that are much less expensive that buying a new beauty dish, but in learning how their use modifies light, you will greatly advance your skill of lighting.

Making the light "HARDER"
Double the distance the the light modifier is placed relative to the subject.  This will have the desired effect on contrast (hardness).  However it will have an undesired effect on coverage of the light, making it still broader than you desire.  To maintain the same exposure settings you will need to increase the output of your strobe.

Making the cone of light "NARROWER"
To overcome the broadening of the cone of light that doubling the distance that the light is from the subject, you may first try modifying the light that is leaving the light modifier.  The appropriate modifier to achieve the narrowing is a grid; there being several grid patterns, you can experiment starting with the widest honeycomb grid and progressing narrower and still narrower.  Should you find that this modification of the light modifier by the addition of grids is still not getting you where you want to be in terms of restricting where light strikes the subject, then you may use flags or a gobo, that go between the light source and the subject.  The utilization of the modeling light is quite helpful as you range the flags closer or further from the subject in this way restricting the light to that portion of the subject that you desire.  Should you find that you dislike the abruptness of the cut off between that portion of the subject receiving light directly and the portion being partially block (receiving light that is scattered, but not from the direct rays) then the next step is to use flags that let part of the light pass through the fabric.  There are various densities of flags available for this purpose.

Matthews and Westcott and two providers whose products are widely utilized for this purpose.  Here's hoping that you will share some of your experiments with varying the characteristic of light and its coverage as you make progress on your creative path.  I am certain that other readers will enjoy sharing with you your findings.

Good luck,

Jerry Reed

[UlfKrentz]

I want to replace the 70 cm Elinchrom beauty dish I'm using so far for a series of portraits (not to tight, 3/4, sometimes less sometimes more, photographed on bw-film with 8x10"). I put the light very close to the person just outside the frame. I want the light slightly harder and narrower than the Elinchrom 70 I'm actually using.

Best,
Johannes

@Johannes
I suppose you use the white Elinchrome 70? So you´re probably right with the choice of the broncolor beauty dish. But - the light output of the silver one is very crisp. It also gives more options, you can still use some scrims or fabrics if it is too harsh, you could even put some dull spray on the inner surface. (Making a white one more crisp is almost impossible, removing the counter reflektor is not an option, you´ll change the complete character.) I don´t know where you are located, the bron folks are very helpful here and I guess you should be able to get some stuff for testing to see what fits your needs. I would also consider testing the bron flooter for your purpose may be with a light fabric in front, you´ll get a much nicer catchlight.

@Jerry
Probably not that easy. Although what you describe is a nice setup and will produce a nice lighting I suppose it´s not what Johannes is looking for. Placing a light close to a face is a complete different story to what you describe - just take a look at Avedon´s early portraiture. The light loss and the created shadows from top of the head down to the shoulders is a matter of distance from light source to subject and differs a lot from use of focussing reflektors or use of flags. Also using a great light source like a 70 Softlight with more energy might create a lot of uncontrolled light bouncing around resulting in unwanted fill light. Just my thoughts...

Cheers, Ulf

[UlfKrentz]

I want to narrow the number of light formers I'm going to test. You described exactly what I'm thinking over and over for some time now: Bron P-Soft or beauty dish? Making the P-Soft softer with a diffusor if needed or the beauty dish harder with a grid....

Johannes,

using the grid is not really making the light harder in the sense of making it more crisp, grids just narrow the light cone and prevent uncontrolled light, the result is darker shadows and of course a different fall off. Ask the bron folks, I´m sure they will be happy to serve you with the different models. My vote would be the P-Soft and the grid, it offers most options.

Cheers from the wild west ;-)

Ulf

[DeeJay]

I've found most beauty dishes to be similar so long as the entire flash bulb is covered (some conversions with speed rings don't do thins). The Broncolor is nice. I like using the Profoto Silver, also the white. But I usually use the silver and keep my assistant watching the hot spot and positioning it where I want it. I rarely use the grid. I don't really like the look.