Poll

What lenses are best with i digital back?

Schneider 24
- 9 (60%)
Rodenstock 23/28
- 6 (40%)

Total Members Voted: 14


Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Down

Author Topic: Schneider 24mm apo-digitar xl or Rodenstock 23mm apo-sironar hr?  (Read 21651 times)

Enda Cavanagh

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 636
    • http://www.endacavanagh.com
Re: Schneider 24mm apo-digitar xl or Rodenstock 23mm apo-sironar hr?
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2011, 08:04:20 pm »

not quite.
Enda wanted to buy the lens sooner:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=49564.msg408932#msg408932

You're implying im somehow to blame!! Thomas what actually happened was I was assured that the lens would be available after Photokina. I was commissioned to shoot the new Terminal in Dublin airport in November. At the time I was told by my client I only had a couple of weeks before flights would commence and it would fill up with passengers (wasn't the case in the end) I pressed Cambo for the lens because I previously had to wait 6 months for everything when I bought my Cambo system originally and I didn't want the same to happen. At no time was I informed of any issues which were causing the delays with the 28mm lens regarding the focus mount. I thought they were just getting through all the pre orders and it was only after I got the lens and discovered the focus problem was I informed aboout the problems with the lens. That was wholly unacceptable by both Cambo and Schneider. I paid $6000 for a defective lens when is was knowingly so by the manufacturer. I'd love to know how I am to blame for that.

 

tho_mas

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1799
Re: Schneider 24mm apo-digitar xl or Rodenstock 23mm apo-sironar hr?
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2011, 08:09:26 pm »

You're implying im somehow to blame!!
no, no - not at all!
It was an agreement between you and Cambo.
But not that Cambo was in a hurry to sell a (unfinished) lens... as Jeffrey implied.
Sorry for the misunderstanding!

Of course they should have informed you about the delay.
I've seen the lens at Photokina with the focus mount provided by Schneider.
It was actually a joke... unusable. And Cambo was very unhappy with it.
I guess Cambo was pretty suprised about the solution Schneider provided.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2011, 08:17:58 pm by tho_mas »
Logged

Enda Cavanagh

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 636
    • http://www.endacavanagh.com
Re: Schneider 24mm apo-digitar xl or Rodenstock 23mm apo-sironar hr?
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2011, 08:17:48 pm »

It's not yet actually available. It has a 95mm image circle so it has huge movements for such a wide angle lens. Unfortunately it does not come with an analogue centre filter. It does not have a front thread as such. You are forced to use a digital centre filter which just does not perform as well and as I'm finding out has huge affect on workflow because after all the processing of RAW files and custom white calibration etc you than have to get rid of the vignetting in photoshop CS4. (It's only in 32bit) For every shot you also have to make a note of every single movement plus aperture, which is than keyed into photoshop. Great fun when you pretty much always shoot panoramics and a total of about 6 to 10 images are needed every time. By the time I even get the proofs out, the seasons have changed!!

tho_mas

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1799
Re: Schneider 24mm apo-digitar xl or Rodenstock 23mm apo-sironar hr?
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2011, 06:02:03 am »

Unfortunately it does not come with an analogue centre filter.
without a glass centerfilter I'd say this lens is actually unusable with large movements and it's quite unbelievable that Schneider doesn't provide a glass CF. Software based correction of 4 stops (!) light falloff will introcude heavy noise at the edges... even with the latest and greatest digibacks; but more so with older models (on my non plus P45 it sure is a problem).
Sure, you can push exposure when shooting at the edges of the image circle but that requires even more post work. It's doable but it's time consuming and sometimes tricky... when you shoot the center at say f11 & 1/125'' and the edges at f11 & 1/8'' you may have an image that shows motion blur at the egdes (due to subject motion not beeing freezed at 1/8'' exposure) but not in the center.
It also requires to process all the LCC shots as TIFs so that you can use them as masks in Photoshop.
Not exactly a fluent workflow...

_________

edit: attached the falloff of the 28XL at f11 centered and at 15mm lateral shift with "exposure evaluation" showing the respective falloff in f-stops.
>2 stops centered and >4 stops at 15mm lateral shift (in conjunction with a P45).
Difficult to deal with without a glass CF... IMO.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 08:11:44 am by tho_mas »
Logged

Enda Cavanagh

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 636
    • http://www.endacavanagh.com
Re: Schneider 24mm apo-digitar xl or Rodenstock 23mm apo-sironar hr?
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2011, 02:26:03 pm »

No problem Thomas :)
I really do wish Cambo had informed me of all the issues before sending it to me. I just thought the delays were due to me been way down the pecking order in terms of delivery due to the huge delays I had previously experienced.

You're  completely correct about the lack of choice. The strange thing is there is no filter thread on the lens but Schneider do supply 2 adaptor rings which can replace the outer ring on the lens. These are threaded. One is 95mm where you would get some vignetting and one is 112mm where you seemingly don't with a filter. I don't understand why don't they just have a permanent 112mm threaded lens which can be used with a centre filter.

The main killer for me is workflow. The digital centre filter does a decent job. However if you want to underexpose so you get a nice dark sky you have huge under exposure along the sides when you have greater movements and this is very difficult to recover digitally. Noise becomes a real issue after digital correction. You're method of removing the vignetting would drive me to the drink!! Ha

I have attached 2 images. The first is a stitched image. This is just a random proof shot I took yesterday so forget about the bright sky and so on!! I have actually 4 exposures for each side of the image so the final one would look very different. The movement on the left image was up 6 and left 15. The one on the right was right 10. So there were pretty large movements.

http://www.endacavanagh.com/Enda's%20Images/Images%20for%20Luminous%20Landscape/Untitled_Panorama1.jpg

The second is the left image prior to the digital centre filter been applied.

http://www.endacavanagh.com/Enda's%20Images/Images%20for%20Luminous%20Landscape/Terminal%202_1013032.jpg


On another note when I said seemingly no vignetting with the 112mm I have been trying desperately to get ND's in that diameter. I have tried Rodenstock and B+W but no joy even thought they are advertised on some sites (B+H for example). Lee have a new 150mm square filter but the wait time is 2-3 months!! Loads of pre orders seemingly. Even if I do get the bloody thing there is no ring for a 112mm lens. I'd have to blutack it on!!

Does anybody out there have any solutions??? ??? I use ND's on most of my water images and would love to have that option with the 28mm

« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 02:28:05 pm by Enda Cavanagh »
Logged

Christopher

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1499
    • http://www.hauser-photoart.com
Re: Schneider 24mm apo-digitar xl or Rodenstock 23mm apo-sironar hr?
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2011, 05:33:09 pm »

I more and more think the Rodentsock 32 was the better choice, Yes even more expesnive, but it takes a nice glass center filter and the fall off is certainly less.

I really don't get it why Schneider is only offering a digital center filter, especially if they could make more money if they built a glass one. Very strange
Logged
Christopher Hauser
[email=chris@hauser-p

Murray Fredericks

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 295
    • http://www.murrayfredericks.com
Re: Schneider 24mm apo-digitar xl or Rodenstock 23mm apo-sironar hr?
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2011, 06:43:00 pm »

No filter thread on the 28mm??

That's very strange...and a show stopper for me too. I regularly use 3 and 10 stop NDs and now a bit of infra-red...



Logged
Exhibition Website   http://www.murrayfr

henrikfoto

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 899
Re: Schneider 24mm apo-digitar xl or Rodenstock 23mm apo-sironar hr?
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2011, 06:50:06 pm »

The mtf-curves on Scneiders site is showing much better results for the 28mm than the 24mm.

Is it your feeling that the 28 is a sharper lens, Enda?

I was pretty suppriced how bad almost all the other mtf's for the digitars look.
Doesn't look like very high res lenses to me.

I mostly do macro, but in that field I have tested most lenses. Sorry to say it, but the Schneider
Macro digitar 120mm is not even close to the old Nikkor-lenses and the Zeiss-lenses from same period.
And they work perfect with digital backs.

I wonder if the same is true for the wide lenses?
Logged

asf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 510
    • http://www.adamfriedberg.com
Re: Schneider 24mm apo-digitar xl or Rodenstock 23mm apo-sironar hr?
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2011, 07:09:47 pm »

"I was pretty suppriced how bad almost all the other mtf's for the digitars look.
Doesn't look like very high res lenses to me.

I mostly do macro, but in that field I have tested most lenses. Sorry to say it, but the Schneider
Macro digitar 120mm is not even close to the old Nikkor-lenses and the Zeiss-lenses from same period.
And they work perfect with digital backs."


Are you sure you're reading the mtf charts correctly?

Can you show us what you found?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 07:13:28 pm by asf »
Logged

henrikfoto

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 899
Re: Schneider 24mm apo-digitar xl or Rodenstock 23mm apo-sironar hr?
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2011, 07:27:26 pm »


This is the 24 Schneider:

http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/foto_e/dig/pdf/TD_AP_56_24_R47815_2CIE.pdf

This is the 23 Rodenstock (scroll down):

http://www.rodenstock-photo.com/mediabase/original/e_Rodenstock_Digital_Lenses_3-26__8236.pdf

It's not easy to compare because they use different frequencies. Even the same company use different
Frequencies for differnt lenses. I am a little confused  >:(


Logged

Enda Cavanagh

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 636
    • http://www.endacavanagh.com
Re: Schneider 24mm apo-digitar xl or Rodenstock 23mm apo-sironar hr?
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2011, 08:23:18 am »

I have both and I find them them to be extremely sharp. I would say my best 2 lenses. The 24 does have some softening in the corners but a bit of extra sharpening and it is not noticeable at all. The same applies for the 28mm. It like other Schneiders has softening along the edges when you have greater movements but it's a much lesser problem than the 35mm xl. Again extra sharpening resolves the issue. The fantastic movements possible with this lens more than compensate for this in my view. I mean the shots that it now allows me to take are way beyond what I thought I could achieve.

To be honest the 24mm is the lens I use by far the least. It just doesn't suit the style that I have developed. Especially my architecture shots where I practically always need some form of movement. I was actually than going to buy the Rodenstock instead of the 28mm until I spoke with Peter Cox. Also the focal length of the 28mm suits me better than the 24mm. The perspective isn't so extreme. This doesn't really work for architecture where everything looks too distorted.

adammork

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 171
Re: Schneider 24mm apo-digitar xl or Rodenstock 23mm apo-sironar hr?
« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2011, 04:29:26 pm »

Also the focal length of the 28mm suits me better than the 24mm. The perspective isn't so extreme. This doesn't really work for architecture where everything looks too distorted.

IMO the 23mm works well for architecture - depending on the character and scale of the project, I use it for maybe 15-40% of my images, half of them as stitch. Of course, you have to be in "control" of the perspective  when using it.

when I had the 24mm I used it way less due to the limitation of the image circle.

/adam
Logged

Enda Cavanagh

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 636
    • http://www.endacavanagh.com
Re: Schneider 24mm apo-digitar xl or Rodenstock 23mm apo-sironar hr?
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2011, 03:28:29 pm »

Hi Adam
Everyone to their own. ;) I just find it distorts the perspective for internals and in smaller spaces with furniture. One thing to note with the 28mm. One needs to sometimes hold back on the larger movements especially when stitching 2 shots left and right as it can look very distorted and stretched along the sides

tesfoto

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 145
Re: Schneider 24mm apo-digitar xl or Rodenstock 23mm apo-sironar hr?
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2011, 03:40:10 am »

Hi Adam
Everyone to their own. ;) I just find it distorts the perspective for internals and in smaller spaces with furniture. One thing to note with the 28mm. One needs to sometimes hold back on the larger movements especially when stitching 2 shots left and right as it can look very distorted and stretched along the sides

The 23 compares to the Canon 17TS and this is one great lens for architectural photography.

Like Adam stated, it is a difficult lens to work with and you have to be in control of the perspective in order not to have distorted spaces.

Logged

Rod.Klukas

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 156
    • http://www.rodklukas.com
Re: Schneider 24mm apo-digitar xl or Rodenstock 23mm apo-sironar hr?
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2011, 01:08:54 pm »

I more and more think the Rodentsock 32 was the better choice, Yes even more expesnive, but it takes a nice glass center filter and the fall off is certainly less.

I really don't get it why Schneider is only offering a digital center filter, especially if they could make more money if they built a glass one. Very strange

Neutral density is the most difficult filter for any manufacturer to produce and be neutral in color and density across its expanse
evenly.  That is probably the reason behind trying to do it digitally.

Rod Klukas
Logged
Rod Klukas
US Representative Arca-Swiss

Enda Cavanagh

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 636
    • http://www.endacavanagh.com
Re: Schneider 24mm apo-digitar xl or Rodenstock 23mm apo-sironar hr?
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2011, 02:41:25 pm »

Like I said Adam. Everyone to their own. It just doesn't suit me. I find it fine for bigger spaces but for smaller internal spaces it doesn't work. That's just my opinion.

Enda Cavanagh

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 636
    • http://www.endacavanagh.com
Re: Schneider 24mm apo-digitar xl or Rodenstock 23mm apo-sironar hr?
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2011, 02:45:53 pm »

Thanks Rod for the info. It's just a pity that the digital option isn't fully effective in it's role due to the large amount of light fall off, which results in noise along the sides, especially with shots darker shots, which are exposed for the sky.

adammork

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 171
Re: Schneider 24mm apo-digitar xl or Rodenstock 23mm apo-sironar hr?
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2011, 04:06:22 pm »

Like I said Adam. Everyone to their own. It just doesn't suit me. I find it fine for bigger spaces but for smaller internal spaces it doesn't work. That's just my opinion.

I got the message in your first reply ;-) maybe this was ment for Tesfoto.

And your are absolutely right, everyone to their own......

/adam
Logged

Enda Cavanagh

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 636
    • http://www.endacavanagh.com
Re: Schneider 24mm apo-digitar xl or Rodenstock 23mm apo-sironar hr?
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2011, 02:17:38 pm »

Oops ::)

pcox

  • Antarctica 2016
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 158
    • http://www.petercox.ie
Re: Schneider 24mm apo-digitar xl or Rodenstock 23mm apo-sironar hr?
« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2011, 08:35:06 am »

Just came across this thread. Yes, the problem with my 23mm Rodenstock was not camera-specific, nor was it lighting-specific. I would always get a big red flare spot in the middle of the image circle which would require extensive work in PS to remove.

Enda's telling of events is accurate - Rodenstock replaced the lens with another defective copy. Apparently this was an endemic problem with early versions of the lens, which has since been corrected. HOWEVER, they have not pulled the old lenses off the market nor are they capable of tracking which of lenses they have in stock are defective (as Enda said, Rodenstock told me they couldn't identify if it was a corrected lens based on the serial number).

There are good copies of this lens out there, but in good conscience I couldn't do business with a company so woefully incompetent as to behave in this way. Spend €5000 on a lens and you expect to be taken care of.

Arca-Swiss (who were the intermediaries in this as the replacement lens from Rodenstock had to go to them first for focus calibration and mounting) were excellent throughout. I got the Schneider 24mm instead, and while it doesn't have movements on the P45+, for most of the work I do that's not a deal breaker. If Schneider come out with a 24mm that has a larger image circle, I imagine I'll buy it, but for now I'm happy with the 24mm.

Rodenstock won't be seeing any more of my business.

Cheers,
Peter
Logged
Peter Cox Photography
[url=http://photoc
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Up