Schneider 24mm apo-digitar xl or Rodenstock 23mm apo-sironar hr?

Schneider 24

9 (60%)

Rodenstock 23/28

6 (40%)

Total Members Voted: 14

[henrikfoto]

I am looking for one or two wide lenses for a tecnical camera.

I wonder what lenses are the best? Rodenstock 23,28 or Schneider 24?

[Graham Mitchell]

How large do you need the image circle to be?

[henrikfoto]

I am not really sure..
I like to use moderate tilting + a little shifting.
I use a P45 back.

What do you think?

[JoeKitchen]

I have never used either but have heard from a few sources that the Rod 23 is sharp from edge to edge and you get some shift with it.  I heard the 24 has a small image circle that just covers the P45+

[henrikfoto]

From the mtf-curves it looks like the 28 Rodenstock is the sharpest of them all.
Has anybody used it?

[pixjohn]

This is an open ended question. Is money an issue? I use the 24xl all the time and it works for me with an aptus 75. Would I upgrade to the 23mm lens? If money was not the issue I would like to try it. The 24xl I believe is much cheaper. I sometime have to retouch a little lens cutoff if I over correct, but it takes less then 1-2 min.

The question is what is best, I would think the 23 with the bigger image circle would be best.

[Murray Fredericks]

I have used and tested all three lenses.

24mm
The 24mm will just cover the 39mpx sensor. It will allow about a 2mm movement and that movement depends on a removal of corner drop off with the LCC feature in C1. I use it with a centre filter also as without a centre filter the LCC will do such a harsh job to the 2stop fall off on the corners that it will degrade the corners with noise. With the centre filter it is a beautiful lens with edge to edge sharpness.

23mm
I tested this lens. It has loads of movement on the 39mpx sensor but is priced way above all other lenses. It also has a bit more distortion that has to be removed using the Alpa software.

28mm
Great lens, a bit more movement than the 24mm and no centre filter required. I use the 35mm XL so I find that the focal length of this lens is a bit 'close' to the 35mm (which has heaps of movements) so I don't use it much.

I have a 24mm with Centre filter for sale at a good price that I no longer use as it won't cover my current 60mpx sensor. If you are interested please send a message.

Murray

[bigstu]

The Rodenstock flyer on their ditigal lenses specifies that the Apo-Sironar lenses are designed for digital backs with pixels down to 9 microns whereas the digarons are for backs with pixels down to 5 microns.  Is anybody noticing the difference with the 40 or 60 mp backs? --- or is this more theoretical than real?

[Jeffreytotaro]

I have owned the 24 on 2 different camera systems and when it came out it was the best option for shooting that wide without stitching.  The issue with it, as others have mentioned, is that it needs a 2 stop center filter to make it useful, so a 1 second exposure become 4 seconds, and 30 seconds becomes 2 minutes.  It has very limited movement for sure and does suffer from less sharpness at the edges, but is super sharp in the middle.  It also is a symmetrical design and has very little distortion.

The 23HR weighs a ton more and is much bigger due to its retro-focal design (which means distortion, but is correctable with the Alpa Lens Corrector software).  This lens gives much more movement, does not need a center filter, and is very sharp edge to edge.  There's no comparison really if you have the funds.  I rarely even adjust the focus since its so wide, one setting works for 95% of the work I do with it, so that just contributes to the speed of working with it.

All of my other lenses are Schneider which I like very much, so this is my first Rodenstock. I'll trade the distortion for the speed and sharpness.

Hope that helps.

[adammork]

I have owned the 24 on 2 different camera systems and when it came out it was the best option for shooting that wide without stitching.  The issue with it, as others have mentioned, is that it needs a 2 stop center filter to make it useful, so a 1 second exposure become 4 seconds, and 30 seconds becomes 2 minutes.  It has very limited movement for sure and does suffer from less sharpness at the edges, but is super sharp in the middle.  It also is a symmetrical design and has very little distortion.

The 23HR weighs a ton more and is much bigger due to its retro-focal design (which means distortion, but is correctable with the Alpa Lens Corrector software).  This lens gives much more movement, does not need a center filter, and is very sharp edge to edge.  There's no comparison really if you have the funds.  I rarely even adjust the focus since its so wide, one setting works for 95% of the work I do with it, so that just contributes to the speed of working with it.

All of my other lenses are Schneider which I like very much, so this is my first Rodenstock. I'll trade the distortion for the speed and sharpness.

Hope that helps.

I can agree completely to all this - from first hands experience.

/adam

[Jeffreytotaro]

Beautiful work you do Adam!

[buckshot]

Before you drop $7.5k (how much?) on the 23mm, I'd have a listen to the excellent 'Circle of Confusion' podcast (episode 6), where Irish landscape photographer Peter Cox recounts his experience of the Rodenshock[ing] 23mm. The fun (sorry Peter) starts at about 54'20".

[henrikfoto]

Before you drop $7.5k (how much?) on the 23mm, I'd have a listen to the excellent 'Circle of Confusion' podcast (episode 6), where Irish landscape photographer Peter Cox recounts his experience of the Rodenshock[ing] 23mm. The fun (sorry Peter) starts at about 54'20".

Wow, that was really something to think about!
Seems like the Schneider 24 might be the safer choice.

Terrible for a lense that highly priced.

[adammork]

Before you drop $7.5k (how much?) on the 23mm, I'd have a listen to the excellent 'Circle of Confusion' podcast (episode 6), where Irish landscape photographer Peter Cox recounts his experience of the Rodenshock[ing] 23mm. The fun (sorry Peter) starts at about 54'20".

Thanks Jeffrey! you are doing well to

I do not have the flare problem with the 23HR in my daily use, inside or outside - but I can generate the problem if photographing a dark building in shadow with a bright sky over, you can reduce the flare if you are using a lens shade like the Alpa Pro Lens Shade, even that you just shade the lens a few millimeters it does help.
Just for the record I have seen the same flare on other lenses when shooting under those circumstances, but as a blue version instead of the orange from the 23HR, so it was not so obvious.

I use this lens a lot, and you can count on one hand how many times that we have to remove flare in photoshop. but if you shoot a lot in open shade this could be a problem - and maybe I have a good sample, who knows?

/adam

[Jeffreytotaro]

I can't get the episode 6 to play for some reason, but it seems there was some issue with flare.  Which camera was it on?  I saw an Arca there on the page.  I have never had any flare issue with this lens.  Some camera bodies are more prone to veiling flare than others.  Alpas use a very flat-black material on the back adapter which reduces this potential greatly.

[Enda Cavanagh]

Hi Jeffrey
I know Peter well so I'm fully aware of his nightmare story. Basically it was pretty irrelevant in what lighting situation he was in - cloudy, sunny whatever. He always got flare with the 23mm lens. He sent it back. They told him it was a common issue with the lens and had sorted it out on a new version of the lens. (It had actually nothing to do with a particular camera.) Well whey the hell did they sell him an older version which had the problem and why was it not full tested. At €5000 that's ridiculous. Here's the best bit. They sent him a new lens. It had the same problem. They than said it might also be an older version of the lens. They asked him to send it back because they couldn't confirm which version it was from the serial number. 

I find the attitude with Schneider and Rodenstock is unreal. I myself purchased the new 28mm Schneider from Cambo. When I got the lens, I discovered mercifully while testing it prior to a big shoot that the focus seemed way off. I rang Cambo and they told be they had to put the focus ring of a 24mm lens on it because they were not happy with the focus mount from Schneider. They knew there was an issue and that the focus ring was basically pointless as the distance points were false and sold me the lens without saying anything. That's the reason by the way that the off the shelf 28's are delayed until the spring. It is a fantastic lens but to me it's absolute deceit when these lens manufactures announce these amazing new lenses with release dates which can't be adhered to and still release the lens knowing that there are faults. And if they didn't know there were faults than what sort of testing was carried out on the lens. I knew within 5 minutes of tethered shooting that there was an issue.

I wonder what would happen if professional Canon or Nikon users had to endure this sh*t.

[Murray Fredericks]

Enda,

I didn't know that 28mm was available yet...it sounds like it shouldn't be

What is the image circle of it?

M

[Jeffreytotaro]

Sounds like Cambo jumped the gun on that one. Schneider had been working on a new "wide angle" (short lens barrel) helical for the new 28.  I guess Cambo wanted to sell lenses sooner.  Schneider had been always great in any dealings I've had with them.  Very responsive and eager to help.  The 23H is the first Rodenstock lens I have had and its been fine so I haven't had any experience with them.

[Mr. Rib]

Quality control of medium format / large format lenses is a phenomenon, really. It opposes any business logic, contradicts all the 'the more you pay the more you demand/receive' and similr rules . I find it hard to think of any analogous situations in different domain.. MF/ LF world really is special

[tho_mas]

I guess Cambo wanted to sell lenses sooner.

not quite.
Enda wanted to buy the lens sooner:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=49564.msg408932#msg408932