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Author Topic: Talent  (Read 4220 times)

Dave Millier

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Talent
« on: December 27, 2010, 09:08:54 am »

Alain's essay is illuminating. It reminds me of an article I read in Scientific American that asked the question what does it take to be a world class expert in just about any field.

The answer, it appears, is about 10,000 hours of active study.

Note the term "active study". What does this mean? It means doing stuff that is just a little bit above your comfort zone so you are constantly stretched but only by a little bit so you don't get depressed and give up.

The article cites many examples but one that struck a chord with me was of amateur golfers. Many people wealthy enough to afford club fees play golf. Many of them get quite good but few push on to representative class. Why is this? Is it limitations of talent? Not according to the authors of the article.

What happens (they say) is that people practise enthusiastically to start with and improve quickly from novice to competent player. Then they stop. They may continue to practise but they rarely get much better. The reason is because they have reached a level where they are good enough and they lose the will to continue practising by doing hard things that are just a little above their skill level. Instead, they settle for repeating the things that can already do. So the practice maintains their currently skills but does not develop them further.

It appears that active practice is unpleasant enough that we won't do it unless very highly motivated - even if we fool ourselves that we are actively practising. Perhaps this is where the benefit of studying with others really comes into play. They make you actively practise even when you don't want to...
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sojournerphoto

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Re: Talent
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2010, 11:29:44 am »

The 10,000 hours saw has been around for a long time, but I think it's a bit simplistic really. I think, but cannot be sreu, that it was originally applied to musicians who have a real need for very specialist physical learning allied with mental preparation. Outside of that field I suspect it starts to break down a bit.

One real positive about practising for 10,000 hours is that it's long enough to put anyone who finds they're not any good at said topic off, so it gets a bit selective. simply put, if your not any good and don't derive enjoyment from improving, you won't practice that long before you give up. Althletics is a good field to consider - the bulk of propioceptive learning is compelte by an early age , too early to train for, and some people clearly have more talent (i.e. natural ability/aptitude) at some events than others (I was never going to be competitive sprinter even with 10,000 hours of practice), so trainign becomes both a learning/improvement and a selection process.

Mike
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PierreVandevenne

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Re: Talent
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2010, 03:13:39 pm »

Yes, the 10 000 hours stuff is a bit old, yes, it finds its origin in the observation of music students.

Last but not least, what the study showed was "future experts have had 10 000 hours of practice... by the age of twenty".

A bit late for most of us, I am afraid.

PS: and, yes, Alain's article was excellent.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 03:40:05 pm by PierreVandevenne »
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Rob C

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Re: Talent
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2010, 04:25:34 pm »

Interesting article from Alain, but unfortunately he doesn’t take us anywhere new. In fact, having read it again it he hasn’t taken us anywhere at all.

As far as his own rejection and then acceptance to Beaux Arts goes, that’s not a lot to do with him but a great deal to do with the ability of the selectors. I went through the same sorry experience, more or less, when I had to go to night school in photography when I got my first photo job; I eventually walked away from it (night school) in disgust. Nobody where I worked took a blind bit of notice. So much for entrance regulations… if you cut it, you are accepted. It also says a lot about the entrance criteria in these places (colleges) and the pre-college possibilities students get.

In Britain during the 50s, the emphasis was on academic education –  English, Mathematics, Science. I was always interested in English and Art, both being my most successful subjects because I loved them. However, schools had a pecking order, and there was scant glory for the school when the published results listed numerically high art successes but lower science ones… so, my folks were somewhat dissuaded from my continuing with art and I ended up getting my certificates in things including English, Mathematics and Science, the latter two which thrilled me not at all thought I could manage them well enough at the time. I wanted to go to art school, but without a certificate in school art I went to industry. Of course, had I not done that I’d have gone to Kenya, Malaya or Ireland and got shot or hacked to bits for nothing at all relevant to my life. It was called military service and demanded the prime learning years out of your life. Cool. But it did keep the unemployment figures down.

But is talent native or acquired? I think the former, but Alain’s points about study don’t mean that talent doesn’t have to be helped along in matters technical – you have to learn how to work a lathe, too, capstan or turret, as I know first hand; why a camera should be something else?

But, another problem with the article or, rather, Alain’s problem, is that he didn’t know what he wanted. That has nothing to do with talent in photography, but is very important with respect to the direction in which a business must head. How could he shoot good pics if he didn’t know where he thought he was headed? All he had at the time was enthusiasm and a belief in himself. I became a fashion photographer before I’d taken a single fashion picture. I just knew I could do it and that’s how it turned out for me. Somebody elsewhere on LuLa pointed out the record of successes from Nick Knight's studio: lucky those who worked there as assistants; they saved a lot of time not reinventing wheels, saw a lot and made the right connections. Of course they also have talent; wouldn’t have lasted there without it nor managed alone without it either.

Honest enough an article, considering the author also markets workshops, but I think that leaving the conclusion pretty open reveals an honest man having a lot of doubts!

Rob C
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 04:29:05 pm by Rob C »
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John Camp

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Re: Talent
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2010, 04:47:16 pm »

I read the 10,000-hour study, and I tend to agree with it, although perhaps not always with so specific a number. Before reading the 10,000-hour study, I'd observed on my own that in a number of fields -- medicine, law, journalism, law enforcement -- it takes roughly five years of steady work before you can really be called "excellent" (as opposed to "having great potential, etc.) That, as it happens, is about 10,000 hours after graduation from a professional school. I would not be at all surprised to find that the same is true for art forms that have clearly defined standards of excellence, which would not include photography, painting, sculpture, etc. But a horn player, for example, cannot hide a lack of ability beneath a layer of bullshit or personality. It's clear to any experienced musician who listens to him/her whether or not he has the chops. In fact, in some auditions for orchestral positions, the auditions are done blind, with the musician sitting behind a curtain while the judges sit outside, listening only to the music. 

I also think that the word "talent" is widely misused. I distinguish several different but related concepts. There is, for example, "facility," which in photography would mean a possibly innate ability to make photographs that are at least superficially interesting. You see it quite often in beginning photojournalism classes, where some people struggle, and others do well from the beginning -- and yet, you really can't predict from the possession of facility who will turn out to be a excellent photographer. To use an example from painting, Cezanne was never a facile artist, either in painting or drawing. Many of his early drawings are painfully crude. He had to struggle constantly to get where he was going, but he got there, and is recognized as a master. Van Gogh, on the other hand, showed great facility almost from his earliest drawings. He, too, eventually got where he wanted to go. Whether or not his innate facility helped with that is an interesting question. In additional to "facility," there is "skill." To become skilled, you don't necessarily need facility -- almost anyone can learn to become an exceptionally skilled photographer (or draftsman), in the sense of making photographs or drawings that are technically excellent. In painting, you often see it with the so-called plein-aire painters, who can do nice, charming paintings that don't really excite the interest (they are akin to wallpaper.) They are, in fact, the expert application of a technique to a scene, without much thought involved.

I reserve the use of "talent" or "talented" to people who bring something new or extraordinary to their art form. They combine skill with thoughtful consideration, and perhaps even a philosophical position. Genuinely talented people are quite rare, and often (in my experience) somewhat unbalanced when it comes to their art form. They are going to do what they are going to do, and nobody will turn them aside.

Alain's problem with finding few really good photographs after six months of hard work strikes me as amusing, something that would happen to a young, inexperienced person. If you grant that Ansel Adams was a talented photographer, how many really exceptional photographs did he take in the space of his long career? Two or three dozen, at the most? Say, one per year? At that rate, Alain should have expected what, 1/2 a good photograph?   


JC
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Talent
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2010, 07:04:50 pm »

Interesting article, makes me feel like attending a photography workshop! :)

Talent:
1. A marked innate ability, as for artistic accomplishment. See Synonyms at ability.
2.
a. Natural endowment or ability of a superior quality.
b. A person or group of people having such ability: The company makes good use of its talent.


Isn't talent relative? A superior quality of achievement only makes sense relative to something else, typically your average achievement for normal practitioners. Since the value of art cannot be rated, talent has to refer to some technical dimension of a craft, an ability to execute.

I could of course be wrong, but my understanding is that talent refers to the amount of work, or lack therefore, required to achieve a certain level of skills. From that standpoint, talent would only be a shortcut but would indeed not garantee the artistic quality of the work produced.

Genious is IMHO something different that transcends talent and touches on uniqueness, creation and progress. In my view, genious is not a superior form of talent, it is an all together separate axis that describes creative ability as opposed to execution excellence.

I believe that it is very possible to be an un-talented genious, as it is to be talented but un-creative.

Most recognized artists whose work outlives us are geniuses who managed to express their creativity within their lifespan thanks to the time savings enabled by talent.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 07:45:32 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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barryfitzgerald

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Re: Talent
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2010, 09:20:37 pm »

I liked the article it got my attention as it was a good read.
Of course the problem is we're no wiser as to the right path to take to get "better", but that's because there is no right path.

Learning is the ability to absorb knowledge and skill and there are numerous ways to do that. Some may take courses and some may teach themselves. Neither is better than the other personally I've never once had any interest in a formal training in photography but it's a sound choice for some people..each to his own.

Technical knowledge is always useful I craved that in my early days and spent quite a bit of time learning this area I don't know it all but I've a decent idea and it gets better over time! That alone isn't enough though to take good shots. I think photographer's instinct is the real meat here.

Question is are good photographers born or made? Or should I say the ability to see a good shot before it's taken. What separates the good from the truly outstanding? Articles like this tend to raise more questions than answers. I'd def agree big quantity shooting teaches very little and tends to produce worse shots.
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viewfinder

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Re: Talent
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2010, 05:42:17 am »

If I grasped the basic messages of the 'lecture',...as with his other pieces I did not have the energy to struggle through his full verbosity, his main idea seems to be that talent is really the ability to be organised about what one does.......No special inate ability for the subject in consideration appears to be important.

The Concise Oxford Dictionary tells us that 'talent' is; 'Special aptitude, faculty, gift' for.

Certainly, many well known practitioners in many fields are 'driven' individuals, and it's also true that discipline is more or less essential for success whatever one attempts in this life.    However, the history of artistic endeavour is littered with people who were very talented, in the dictionary definition, but who were so flawed in other areas that they failed to be measured as successful.

To be specific about photography; there are many people who do not regard themselves as talented but who have an inate 'special aptitude' when using a camera.    I have known several of these interesting characters over the years and presently have a neighbour in her mid 70's who always produces the most pleasing, well composed and arresting images that she refers to as her "little snaps".    She does not believe that she has anything that could be regarded as talent and she would certainly deny that she has any interest in 'real' photography.     Nevertheless, her "snaps" are very seriously made and to watch her with camera in hand is an education in itself.

So, talent for phjotography IS a tangible thing that can be described and enumerated,..it's NOT the pursuit of merely being organised, or the pretension that one person can have it by force of longing, or even by studying at the right places,...sorry Alain!

Most of those here will doubtless know of people who have instinctive abilty to hold a camera straight,..to compose instinctively and to press the shutter at the right moment, again by instinct.   Of course these individuals can be helped and furthered in their photographic abilities by knowlendge, practice, encouragement and discipline, but, the 'talent' in undeniably there to begin with.
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bernhardAS

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Re: Talent
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2010, 06:18:00 am »

In German language is an old saying that loosely translated into English is:

ART comes from the ABILITY to do something and not the WILL to do something otherwise it would be called WART.

Alains article shows that this ability needs training and growth to be developed.  I fully concurr.
I do not agree with his strong dismissal of the idea of "Talent". I think there are simply fast learners around, which we could call talented.
(For full disclosure, I am not one of them.)

Will artistic accomplishment be created sponteanously without training of abilities?  I think in very rare cases.
The rest falls into the broad field of learners some of which are faster than others and some are lightning fast "Young Superstars".
Academia is useful for the majority of learners, some learn better on their own and for some it might be an inhibitor.

It is hardly new that human nature is diverse.

 
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dchew

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Re: Talent
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2010, 11:48:25 am »

Alain quoted Stephen King in the article.  From the same book, On Writing, Stephen proposes the following thesis on pg 135-6:

Writers [photographers] are separated into four groups - bad, competent, good, and great (Shakespeares, Faulkners, etc).
It is impossible to make a competent writer out of a bad writer, and equally impossible to make a great writer out of a good writer. It is possible, with lots of hard work, dedication and timely help, to make a good writer out of a competent one.

Dave
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dreed

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Re: Talent
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2010, 10:38:48 pm »

Alain's essay features an interesting contradiction(?): the inclusion of the "best selling" picture from the Grand Canyon. The difference between that and the other he cites as being 16 years of learning about what people like (and thus don't like.)

Where does creative talent fit into that?
Being able to adjust?
Being able to translate what you hear/see from customers into product?
Or does that even qualify as being talent in the artistic sense at all?

If not, then is it necessary to be a talented photographer in order to be a successful one?
Or is it more important to be persistent and constantly evolving?
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viewfinder

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Re: Talent
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2010, 09:25:14 am »

Many of the worlds most successful people are not especially talented,...and the history of art is well sprinkled with people who had amazing talent but died in obscurity.

Many very successful people are VERY disciplined about what they do and almost ALL of them are very persistant and 'driven'.
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Rob C

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Re: Talent
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2010, 01:15:46 pm »

Many of the worlds most successful people are not especially talented,...and the history of art is well sprinkled with people who had amazing talent but died in obscurity.

Many very successful people are VERY disciplined about what they do and almost ALL of them are very persistant and 'driven'.



You're right: I've never known any other kind make it big.

Rob C

jeremyrh

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Re: Talent
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2010, 01:25:40 pm »

Alain's essay features an interesting contradiction(?): the inclusion of the "best selling" picture from the Grand Canyon. The difference between that and the other he cites as being 16 years of learning about what people like (and thus don't like.)
Apparently it took Alain 16 years to become a successful interior decorator. Whether that is the same thing as being a successful artist is another question ...
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Rob C

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Re: Talent
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2011, 05:31:16 am »

Apparently it took Alain 16 years to become a successful interior decorator. Whether that is the same thing as being a successful artist is another question ...



Mieauuu.....

;-)

Rob C

mahleu

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Re: Talent
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2011, 01:28:51 am »

Just read some scientific back up for this at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12140064

Alain's essay should be read by anyone before embarking on any learning process which may require work. Would save a lot of frustration.
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EduPerez

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Re: Talent
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2011, 11:00:01 am »

Many of the worlds most successful people are not especially talented,...and the history of art is well sprinkled with people who had amazing talent but died in obscurity.

Many very successful people are VERY disciplined about what they do and almost ALL of them are very persistant and 'driven'.

One word: Passion!
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