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Author Topic: Canon 5D M2 profiling  (Read 6895 times)

soboyle

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Canon 5D M2 profiling
« on: December 17, 2010, 11:25:32 am »

I've been seeing a red tinge in files from my 5D M2, esp when opening shadows. Am I alone in seeing this red color in canon files?

I picked up the x-rite passport, expecting to make a camera profile to correct the red issue. After reading posts here it seems that camera profiles are quite difficult to make, and the passport software is not really up to the task.
Any suggestions on how I should proceed to try to correct this problem with the passport? Is it a futile attempt without more sophisticated software, color charts?

Brad Smith

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Re: Canon 5D M2 profiling
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2010, 12:32:11 pm »

Making a color profile for your camera is not very difficult. You can watch the video on how to do it at
http://blog.xritephoto.com/?p=1507

You may be confusing making a color profile with making a lens profile, which is much more involved (time consuming).
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nilo

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Re: Canon 5D M2 profiling
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2010, 04:27:22 pm »

Hi,

I've been seeing a red tinge in files from my 5D M2, esp when opening shadows. Am I alone in seeing this red color in canon files?
No, you are not alone. It is a well know thing the red canon cast (try to google it, you'll see). I myself try to profile an EOS 5D MkII for the same reasons (did you see the ongoing thread http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=49616.0)?
That said, from my experience, all brands have some cast. Nikon, for me tends to be yellowish/golden. The digital middle format cameras are maybe a bit better off with the supplied ICC profiles, at least the ones I used till now. The Red of my Canon is very bothering.
Quote
I picked up the x-rite passport, expecting to make a camera profile to correct the red issue. After reading posts here it seems that camera profiles are quite difficult to make, and the passport software is not really up to the task.

I experienced the same, and have posted about this gray card/white balance problem here (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=47189.0). I guess you have already calibrated and profiled your monitor.

I prefer to work with Capture One, because I work with skin tones. Regarding portraits made with the 5DM2, I find the default rendering by Lightroom worse. So I had to turn to the use of ICC profiles, because that's the only thing Capture One accepts (for whatever reason). The problem is, that building ICC profiles is a difficult task it appears. The easy way, in most cases absolutely satisfying, is to tweak the existing profile (whether in Lightroom through a preset, or in C1 or PS/Camera Raw). My additional problem is that there is an issue with C1's color editor in my configuration (Win7x64), as the RGB values make no sens (This problem was fixed in the last update to version #5, but reappeared now in #6).

I understand that the supplied profiles are a compromise in order to serve most situations. But when you need a profile for a specific situation, a custom made, or tweaked one, will be better. As mentioned in the other thread, while you tweak here you untweak there. That's why I now go for profiling.


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Any suggestions on how I should proceed to try to correct this problem with the passport? Is it a futile attempt without more sophisticated software, color charts?

Let's see what the others have to say! When building an ICC profile the 24 patches on the classic colorchecker will maybe not be enough. Whether we will need something like this http://www.basiccolor.de/basiccolor-dcam-target/, which is a card like the colorchekcher SG, but with an additional black light trap, we'll see. The whole thing, without a software to use it, goes for only 514.293 USD (as of todays rate). The basic software for it, basICColor Input, is comparatively cheap, for only 395.610 USD. BTW, my trial copy came without a help file.

Nonetheless, as a start, I immediately got a more pleasing profile (unfortunately with crushed blacks), with just the colorchecker and that basICColor Input software.

regards
nino
« Last Edit: December 18, 2010, 04:36:32 pm by Nino Loss »
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madmanchan

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Re: Canon 5D M2 profiling
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2010, 06:19:06 pm »

Could you please post an example image that illustrates the issue?
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Eric Chan

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Re: Canon 5D M2 profiling
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2010, 03:27:46 am »

I've been seeing a red tinge in files from my 5D M2, esp when opening shadows. Am I alone in seeing this red color in canon files?
I can't say it's a problem here. Despite other suggestions Googling doesn't suggest it as particularly common issue either.
Quote
I picked up the x-rite passport, expecting to make a camera profile to correct the red issue. After reading posts here it seems that camera profiles are quite difficult to make, and the passport software is not really up to the task.
Any suggestions on how I should proceed to try to correct this problem with the passport? Is it a futile attempt without more sophisticated software, color charts?
Using the term 'profile' can be a little misleading as the X-Rite passport strictly creates a "DNG profile"a calibration preset for Lightroom/ACR, not an ICC colour profile.
In my experience the passport software makes good custom calibration presets for Lightroom/ACR, but you can also use the free Adobe DNG profile editor with the same hardware too. Measuring their outputs suggests they both can give very 'accurate' results, but I find the Adobe software gives a more pleasing result than the passport and it can also be fine tuned if you need a particular look.

Also make sure that your monitor is well calibrated, profiled and validated before making too many assumptions about colour.

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nilo

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Re: Canon 5D M2 profiling
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2010, 04:37:46 am »

Any suggestions on how I should proceed to try to correct this problem with the passport? Is it a futile attempt without more sophisticated software, color charts?

Sorry, I forgot to mention some alternatives to basICColor. There is InCamera, ColorEyes 20/20, ProfileMaker, MonacoProfiler and many more. There is lots of material out there, but I found this comparison by BetterLight, for my purpose, very interesting: http://www.betterlight.com/downloads/conference06_notes/myers_artRepro_color.pdf This article tries to examine the possible sources for image color errors. It is geared to the fine art reproduction photographer. (At BetterLight, they have another document detailing a series of possible errors while producing a profile http://www.betterlight.com/downloads/conference06_notes/color_Accuracy-ppt.pdf)

Lastly here is an explanation by a PhaseOne staff memebr of why PhaseOne prefers ICC profiles over the Colorchecker Passport approach:

Quote
Re: Creating a Camera Profile

Postby Jon » Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:30 pm
There is a very different philosophy between what you are doing with the Colorchecker passport in Lightroom and what we are doing in Capture One. Basically the Color checker passport is creating a DNG profile which is not the same as an ICC profile. The DNG profile is a collections of selective color adjustments that are made to the image after a base color is assumed for the image. This base color is not necessarily very accurate and the adjustments are need to make it accurate. What we are doing is creating specific ICC profiles for each camera that establish the proper color relationships from the beginning.

Kind Regards,

Jon Gilbert
Phase One
(source http://forum.phaseone.com/En/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=7974

You understand that there are those who have a different view, which has solid theoretical backing:  Here is an ICC white paper http://www.color.org/ICC_white_paper_17_ICC_profiles_with_camera_images.pdf


regards
nino
« Last Edit: December 19, 2010, 04:39:29 am by Nino Loss »
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nilo

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Re: Canon 5D M2 profiling
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2010, 06:10:20 am »

Just for fun, this is from x-rites ProfileMaker page, and gives you an practical and professional interesting perspective on the debate:
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If you’re a professional fine art or commercial studio photographer with a discerning eye for color, the highest quality profiles are a must. When paired with an i1 measuring device, ProfileMaker™ 5 Platinum helps you connect each step in your color imaging workflow by creating and editing high quality, reliable ICC profiles. Achieve the most accurate digital color with highest confidence that it will remain consistent on each input, display and output device.
(source http://www.xritephoto.com/ph_product_overview.aspx?ID=1211&catid=111)

 ... and soon there will also be the new x-rite  software, the i1Profiler http://www.xritephoto.com/custom_page.aspx?PageID=160

regards
nino
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digitaldog

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Re: Canon 5D M2 profiling
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2010, 12:28:28 pm »

Just for fun, this is from x-rites ProfileMaker page, and gives you an practical and professional interesting perspective on the debate:  (source http://www.xritephoto.com/ph_product_overview.aspx?ID=1211&catid=111)

 ... and soon there will also be the new x-rite  software, the i1Profiler http://www.xritephoto.com/custom_page.aspx?PageID=160

Which will not build ICC camera profiles...
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nilo

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Re: Canon 5D M2 profiling
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2010, 12:31:22 pm »

so what will it do, Andrew? DNG "profiles" like the cc passport?
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digitaldog

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Re: Canon 5D M2 profiling
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2010, 12:36:02 pm »

so what will it do, Andrew? DNG "profiles" like the cc passport?

No, there’s Passport. The software (which is free) exists today. At some time, its possible Passport may build ICC profiles but I wouldn’t hold my breath.
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nilo

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Re: Canon 5D M2 profiling
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2010, 12:57:52 pm »

No, there’s Passport. The software (which is free) exists today. At some time, its possible Passport may build ICC profiles but I wouldn’t hold my breath.

I don't understand, what will it do? DNG tweaks/presets is the passport, no ICC profiles... Something new? I didn't care too much about that topic till recently, so my knowledge is very basic. You say the software is free and exists today, hmm... which software is that?

I find the different offers and products from x-rite, with all thats going on, quite confusing, to be honest.
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digitaldog

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Re: Canon 5D M2 profiling
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2010, 01:00:39 pm »

Passport builds DNG profiles. It doesn’t build ICC camera profiles. If you want to do that, you will have to use a legacy X-Rite product (ProfileMaker as an example). The new i1P software doesn’t build any camera profiles, ICC or DNG. For DNG profiles, you would use Passport, an existing product. For ICC profiles you’d use a legacy product.
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nilo

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Re: Canon 5D M2 profiling
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2010, 01:11:15 pm »

Passport builds DNG profiles. It doesn’t build ICC camera profiles. If you want to do that, you will have to use a legacy X-Rite product (ProfileMaker as an example). The new i1P software doesn’t build any camera profiles, ICC or DNG. For DNG profiles, you would use Passport, an existing product. For ICC profiles you’d use a legacy product.

I find all that more and more confusing:

This page https://www.xritephoto.com/custom_page.aspx?PageID=198 clearly talks about profiles, though it doesn't mention ICC profiles with one word. The page describes the product as a successor to the aforementioned legacy products ProfilMaker and MonacoProfiler. The packages does include the CC passport and no other target, no CCSG...
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digitaldog

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Re: Canon 5D M2 profiling
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2010, 04:37:35 pm »

I find all that more and more confusing:

This page https://www.xritephoto.com/custom_page.aspx?PageID=198 clearly talks about profiles, though it doesn't mention ICC profiles with one word.

The page clearly says:
Quote
ColorChecker Camera Calibration System
With the included ColorChecker Classic mini target and ColorChecker Passport Camera Calibration software
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nilo

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Re: Canon 5D M2 profiling
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2010, 04:42:16 pm »

The page clearly says:
so that is meant to be the successor to ProfilMaker and MonacoProfiler?

Is there new development on colorimetric accuracy of DNG profiles for those of us who need for products and reproduction?
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digitaldog

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Re: Canon 5D M2 profiling
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2010, 04:45:15 pm »

so that is meant to be the successor to ProfilMaker and MonacoProfiler?

Both.

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Is there new development on colorimetric accuracy of DNG profiles for those of us who need for products and reproduction?

The first question would be, what makes you believe ICC or DNG profiles are either colorimetrically accurate (or not). The first comment would be, anything not specifically announced by X-Rite I might be privy to I would be unable to comment on.
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nilo

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Re: Canon 5D M2 profiling
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2010, 04:55:36 pm »

Both.

The first question would be, what makes you believe ICC or DNG profiles are either colorimetrically accurate (or not). The first comment would be, anything not specifically announced by X-Rite I might be privy to I would be unable to comment on.

So I'll wait than ;-)

Regarding colorimetric accuracy, to mention one thing, I thought to understand that ICC was scene-based and DNG with it's integrated color adjustments output-referred.
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digitaldog

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Re: Canon 5D M2 profiling
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2010, 05:55:18 pm »

I thought to understand that ICC was scene-based and DNG with it's integrated color adjustments output-referred.

The opposite (more or less).
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nilo

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Re: Canon 5D M2 profiling
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2010, 05:59:47 pm »

The opposite (more or less).
oops, yeah  ;D  I try to get this right.
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