Cambo vs Hasselblad

[nicksouth]

Hello all,

I shoot 100% landscapes and am trying to decide between the H4D-40 with 28mm lens or the Cambo wrs1000 with 40mm digaron and Phase 45+ back. Will keep my 21mp Canon for a back up. Any advice or experience with these different setups would be much appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
Nick.

[ggriswold]

I have had  Cambo RS for a few months and it is fantastic. I have a P40+ that I still use with a Mamiya 645II, but the wide angle performance wasn't there.  On the Cambo RS I  Use a 25mm and 35mm Schneider XL and 45mm Rodenstock. 

A mini-view camera... direct and easy to use.  No menus, settings, etc.... I like the direct capture it affords.  I can't speak to the quality of the Hasselblad 28mm, but the lens choices are really really good for the Cambo.  The 24mm does not have an image circle to give any useful rise/fall, but the 35mm and 45mm do.  Without the limitations of a retro focus design these lenses are sharp all the way to the corners...

I have attached a file from the 35mm just for grins.

[nicksouth]

Thanks for that. Was going to look at the tilt and shift lens board which limits lens selection on that front. How does the ultra wide perform? 
Cheers
Nick.

[ggriswold]

That should be 24mm not 25mm. 

[Doug Peterson]

I shoot 100% landscapes and am trying to decide between the H4D-40 with 28mm lens or the Cambo wrs1000 with 40mm digaron and Phase 45+ back. Will keep my 21mp Canon for a back up. Any advice or experience with these different setups would be much appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
Nick.

Schneider and Rodenstock large format lenses are a different league of optics compared to any wide-angle retrofocus SLR lens. It's part Schneider/Rodenstock's magic with lens design, part making the design entirely focused on resolution, contrast, and draw rather than making "fast" lenses intended to be shot hand-held, and part the inherent physics of making a wide angle lens which does not have to project it's image from in front of a large mirror box. I love the Phase One 45mm D and the Schneider 55mm LS, but neither of them can compare to a Schneider/Rodenstock large format lens.

By the way you may not need to go as wide as you think: a Schneider 47mm XL on a P45+ with two shots left/right (10mm of overlap) would be the equivalent field of view as a 32mm lens on a H4D-40 and would give you a 68 megapixel file. If needed you could add a Schneider 24mm XL down the road which with a P45+ would give you the same angle of view as a (non existent) 21mm lens with an H4D40. That lens is so wide that it rarely calls for a tilt for DOF reasons.*

Alternatively the Schneider 43mm lens with two shots overlapping 6mm would be the same field of view as a 28mm on an H4D-40 (in practice 10mm of overlap would be better which would be the same as a 29mm lens on an H4D-40).

The reason I mention it is because the 47mm and 43mm have very generously sized image circles which opens up a lot of possibilities. Not only can you shoot two (or three, or four) frames to increase file size, but you can also do it to switch to a native panoramic format while gaining rather than losing resolution (two side by side horizontal frames rather than cropping a single frame down) or use it for perspective control.

Shot by me with a Phase One P45+ on a CWRS with a Schneider 47mm using a left-right stitch.


The 45+ can also handle any long exposure you throw at it (up to an hour at 63F). If you want to use a graduated ND filter or polarizer and are shooting at f/16 at ISO50 then pre-dawn or dusk exposures can run quite long. How many frames are actually captured at 6 min? 10 min? 30 min? It depends on the photographer, but usually not many. But I can tell you it's very freeing to stand in the pre-dawn fog with the light just starting to come up and knowing that the camera/back won't limit you regardless of what shutter speed is needed to get the image you want.

Finally even if you go with an SLR today like the H4 or the Phase One DF - if you think you might conceivably in the future use a technical camera the Phase One P45+ has a battery slot in the digital back itself which can provide power to the back while shooting on a tech camera, meaning you do not need to carry any other power source. If you are positive you would pick and stick with an SLR then this will have no relevance to you.

Since you're new (15 posts?) to the forum I'll make my standard disclosure that the company I work for sells Phase (and many other things) but not Hassy so my opinion is biased. That said, I stand very firmly behind everything above.

Finally the software (that you'll be spending a lot of time with) for Phase One and Hasselblad are both available for free* at their respective websites. Make sure to spend a several hours in each program going through the entire workflow available in each program. I think it says something that many/most Capture One Pro users are using the program only with dSLR files and often either in lieu of LightRoom, Aperture, and Adobe Camera Raw. But software is very personal, so you should get your hands on both programs and run through the entire process with a meaningful number of images (e.g. two or three full CF cards if that's what you bring back from a trip/shoot).

*note that if you want to use Phase One's Capture One with dSLR files you'll need to opt to "try Capture One Pro". To use it with digital back files requires no license or registration.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
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[Doug Peterson]

P40+ on a CWRS with a two shot vertical stitch (15mm rise, 25mm fall) for 70 megapixels. By me.

If you've not read about it, stitching with a tech camera is very different than stitching with a dSLR. The lens stays static and projects one large continuous image circle, within which you move the digital back to capture different sections of the frame. There is no fancy math to distort the images together, no pixels are stretched, and no part of the image needs to be cropped along the way. 



Two frame stitch (left/right vertical frames) with a P21 (infrared version). By me.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
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[Dick Roadnight]

By the way you may not need to go as wide as you think: a Schneider 47mm XL on a P45+ with two shots left/right (10mm of overlap) would be the equivalent field of view as a 32mm lens on a H4D-40 and would give you a 68 megapixel file.

Yes, Doug...

I have an Apo-Digitar 47XL, and it should be useful on my P2/3, with 8cm movement each axis each end, when I get it mounted.

[Jeffreytotaro]

Nice work Doug!  Love the infrared back!

[Harold Clark]

Schneider and Rodenstock large format lenses are a different league of optics compared to any wide-angle retrofocus SLR lens. It's part Schneider/Rodenstock's magic with lens design, part making the design entirely focused on resolution, contrast, and draw rather than making "fast" lenses intended to be shot hand-held, and part the inherent physics of making a wide angle lens which does not have to project it's image from in front of a large mirror box. I love the Phase One 45mm D and the Schneider 55mm LS, but neither of them can compare to a Schneider/Rodenstock large format lens.

By the way you may not need to go as wide as you think: a Schneider 47mm XL on a P45+ with two shots left/right (10mm of overlap) would be the equivalent field of view as a 32mm lens on a H4D-40 and would give you a 68 megapixel file. If needed you could add a Schneider 24mm XL down the road which with a P45+ would give you the same angle of view as a (non existent) 21mm lens with an H4D40. That lens is so wide that it rarely calls for a tilt for DOF reasons.*

Alternatively the Schneider 43mm lens with two shots overlapping 6mm would be the same field of view as a 28mm on an H4D-40 (in practice 10mm of overlap would be better which would be the same as a 29mm lens on an H4D-40).

The reason I mention it is because the 47mm and 43mm have very generously sized image circles which opens up a lot of possibilities. Not only can you shoot two (or three, or four) frames to increase file size, but you can also do it to switch to a native panoramic format while gaining rather than losing resolution (two side by side horizontal frames rather than cropping a single frame down) or use it for perspective control.

Shot by me with a Phase One P45+ on a CWRS with a Schneider 47mm using a left-right stitch.


The 45+ can also handle any long exposure you throw at it (up to an hour at 63F). If you want to use a graduated ND filter or polarizer and are shooting at f/16 at ISO50 then pre-dawn or dusk exposures can run quite long. How many frames are actually captured at 6 min? 10 min? 30 min? It depends on the photographer, but usually not many. But I can tell you it's very freeing to stand in the pre-dawn fog with the light just starting to come up and knowing that the camera/back won't limit you regardless of what shutter speed is needed to get the image you want.

Finally even if you go with an SLR today like the H4 or the Phase One DF - if you think you might conceivably in the future use a technical camera the Phase One P45+ has a battery slot in the digital back itself which can provide power to the back while shooting on a tech camera, meaning you do not need to carry any other power source. If you are positive you would pick and stick with an SLR then this will have no relevance to you.

Since your new (15 posts?) to the forum I'll make my standard disclosure that the company I work for sells Phase (and many other things) but not Hassy so my opinion is biased. That said, I stand very firmly behind everything above.

Finally the software (that you'll be spending a lot of time with) for Phase One and Hasselblad are both available for free* at their respective websites. Make sure to spend a several hours in each program going through the entire workflow available in each program. I think it says something that many/most Capture One Pro users are using the program only with dSLR files and often either in lieu of LightRoom, Aperture, and Adobe Camera Raw. But software is very personal, so you should get your hands on both programs and run through the entire process with a meaningful number of images (e.g. two or three full CF cards if that's what you bring back from a trip/shoot).

*note that if you want to use Phase One's Capture One with dSLR files you'll need to opt to "try Capture One Pro". To use it with digital back files requires no license or registration.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter | RSS Feed
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off

Thanks Doug for this very helpful information. I have wondered whether stitching with the Schneider 35mm digitar would serve the same purpose in the end as using the 24mm. Given that the 24mm has essentially no room for movements, it would save the expense of another lens. I employ stitching quite a lot with my Canon 5D11 with the 24mm lens, especially interiors.

Attached is an interior where the camera was vertical, lens shifted left, center,and right. I presume using a 35mm digitar on a 36x48mm sensor in the same fashion would achieve the same result.

Harold

[Doug Peterson]

As it turns out the math works out exactly right for that.

Three frames (-20mm, 0mm, 20mm) from a 35mm XL results in the exact field of view as a 24mm XL single shot.

Three frames from a P45+ and a 35mm XL would be slightly wider than the field of view of a 5D Mark 2 and the 24mm T/S with three shots.

The benefit is higher resolution and only having to buy one lens.
The drawback is that you have to take three shots every time you want to go that wide.

See below:



In the above chart of the lens circle of the 35mm XL with three frames from a 45+ the lens circle shown is the extreme outer edge. The final shot implied by that graph would likely need to be cropped down (either dimension) to remove the extreme corners as the detail at the extreme edge of the image circle is smeered.


Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
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[tho_mas]

As it turns out the math works out exactly right for that.

Three frames (-20mm, 0mm, 20mm) from a 35mm XL results in the exact field of view as a 24mm XL single shot.

the drawback here with the 35XL is the somewaht strange image format.
If you use the 47XL or 43XL (larger image circles) you can keep a 4:3 format (if desired) and still go as wide as the 24XL.

P45 sensor plane = 49.1x36.8mm. diagonal = 61.36mm
with +/-20mm shift lateral and +/-15mm shift vertical you end up with a sensor plane of 89.1x66.8mm. diagonal = 111.36mm.
So at this amount of shift the 47XL covers the field of view of a 26mm lens and the 43XL the field of view of a 24mm lens.
Of course there is a significant sharpness falloff with such large movements in the corners... but the increased resolution easily compensates the falloff (in comparision to a single image of the 24XL).

[Doug Peterson]

the drawback here with the 35XL is the somewaht strange image format.
If you use the 47XL or 43XL (larger image circles) you can keep a 4:3 format (if desired) and still go as wide as the 24XL.

P45 sensor plane = 49.1x36.8mm. diagonal = 61.36mm
with +/-20mm shift lateral and +/-15mm shift vertical you end up with a sensor plane of 89.1x66.8mm. diagonal = 111.36mm.
So at this amount of shift the 47XL covers the field of view of a 26mm lens and the 43XL the field of view of a 24mm lens.
Of course there is a significant sharpness falloff with such large movements in the corners... but the increased resolution easily compensates the falloff (in comparision to a single image of the 24XL).

Yep! All the large image circle lenses offer a lot of flexibility for aspect ratio, wideness of field of view, and perspective correction at the cost of varying numbers of images required for the capture.

My (personal) feeling is that two/three frame stitching is very fast/easy to compose/acquire/stitch for commerce even on relatively fast moving jobs (as a percentage of the time required to scout, set up the camera, dress and light the scene). Whereas 4, 6, and 9 frame stitches start to get pretty tedious outside of personal work / art where time and efficiency is not as much a concern. BUT that's just my opinion and many of our customers do use 4/6/9 frame stitches on commercial jobs.

From that POV I'd rather see the OP with a 35mm (ready to stitch down to a 24mm that matches his current 5DII three-shots-with-a-24mmTS) and a 47mm. That would give him options from ultra-wide to wide - to go a bit longer he can crop in the frame of the 47mm and still have enough pixels for many applications (or of course buy a 72mm or other longer lens). But there are very few bad options, as long as the OP understands the benefits, negatives, and costs.

[Harold Clark]

Yep! All the large image circle lenses offer a lot of flexibility for aspect ratio, wideness of field of view, and perspective correction at the cost of varying numbers of images required for the capture.

My (personal) feeling is that two/three frame stitching is very fast/easy to compose/acquire/stitch for commerce even on relatively fast moving jobs (as a percentage of the time required to scout, set up the camera, dress and light the scene). Whereas 4, 6, and 9 frame stitches start to get pretty tedious outside of personal work / art where time and efficiency is not as much a concern. BUT that's just my opinion and many of our customers do use 4/6/9 frame stitches on commercial jobs.

From that POV I'd rather see the OP with a 35mm (ready to stitch down to a 24mm that matches his current 5DII three-shots-with-a-24mmTS) and a 47mm. That would give him options from ultra-wide to wide - to go a bit longer he can crop in the frame of the 47mm and still have enough pixels for many applications (or of course buy a 72mm or other longer lens). But there are very few bad options, as long as the OP understands the benefits, negatives, and costs.

I think a 35-47mm combo would cover the vast majority of situations. With 4x5 the 90mm lens was by far the most used for architecture. I occasionally had to go to 75 or very rarely 58mm, and occasionally 120mm for a longer view. This 35-47mm combo would essentially duplicate those angles of view with stitching employed on the wide end when required. Any longer detail shots could be handled with the Canon or Mamiya.

[Doug Peterson]

I think a 35-47mm combo would cover the vast majority of situations. With 4x5 the 90mm lens was by far the most used for architecture. I occasionally had to go to 75 or very rarely 58mm, and occasionally 120mm for a longer view. This 35-47mm combo would essentially duplicate those angles of view with stitching employed on the wide end when required. Any longer detail shots could be handled with the Canon or Mamiya.

Agreed, especially since the margin between Schneider/Rodenstock large format lenses and SLR lenses is most prominent for wide-angle focal lengths. By the time you get to 80mm the medium format lenses (at least the good ones) are excellent and the advantage of the large format glass is less important. Also the difficulty of composing and focusing with the Cambo body increases with focal length since it is a rangefinder rather than a TTL system.

Granted having shift/rise available at focal lengths like 72/90/120 is welcome (for architectural shooters) and another lens for a Cambo would be cheaper than for instance the HTS for Hasselblad H Bodies or the Schneider 120mm Tilt-Shift for the Phase One DF, and would not require a separate body/bag/charger/accessories like a Canon would.


Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
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[tho_mas]

since it is a rangefinder rather than a TTL system

Cambo also provides a ground glass ;-)

[Kumar]

Doug,

Where can I download this excellent calculator?

Kumar

[Doug Peterson]

Where can I download this excellent calculator?

It's internal to our company at the moment. We're looking at making an iPhone/iPad or OSX app in 2011.

[Kumar]

Well, thanks, but right now can't you just make it an Excel spreadsheet like you did the Focal Length Converter?

Kumar

[nicksouth]

Hi Doug,
Many thanks for your extensive advice. The P45+ requires a darkslide equivelent to the exposure length according to some other users..is this correct? What is your opinion on the 40mm Digaron? Is it true it has some moustache distortion? Shoot a lot of lake scenery and a distortion free horizon is important. Thanks again for your help and time.
Cheers
Nick.

[Doug Peterson]

Many thanks for your extensive advice. The P45+ requires a darkslide equivelent to the exposure length according to some other users..is this correct? What is your opinion on the 40mm Digaron? Is it true it has some moustache distortion? Shoot a lot of lake scenery and a distortion free horizon is important. Thanks again for your help and time.

All Phase One backs require a darkslide exposure equal in length to the original exposure. It is not optional and cannot be disabled or skipped. It is one of the technologies by which Phase One is able to produce clean hour long exposures using the same sensors from which other manufacture's can only manage one minute or 30 seconds such as the KAF-3900.

As a side note - all digital back's max exposure time is relevant to single captures taken with sufficient time for the sensor to cool back down and is usually spec'd at around 65 degrees F (18F). So on hotter nights or in the case that you are exposing several shots in a row the back will not perform as well as a single exposure taken while the sensor starts at ambient temperature.

Someone else here will be more expert regarding the extent and characteristic of distortion of the 40mm. I know Schneider's line much better than Rodenstock's.