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Author Topic: Which sharpening setting in camera parameters?  (Read 5428 times)

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Which sharpening setting in camera parameters?
« on: May 29, 2005, 05:27:05 pm »

None of these settings affect RAW images. JPGs only.

The only in-camera setting other than exposure and focus that affects RAW files is ISO.

Michael
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giles

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Which sharpening setting in camera parameters?
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2005, 08:52:16 pm »

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That is not what the manual says. The 1Ds software manual says that "the intensity [sharpness] and object settings are applied to both JPEG and RAW images."
I interpret that to mean that the camera's settings are stored in the RAW file and may be used as defaults by any RAW converter that chooses to, not that the camera modifies the RAW data.

Giles
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DarkPenguin

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Which sharpening setting in camera parameters?
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2005, 10:03:22 pm »

The settings are stored in the RAW files.  If you tell EVU or DPP (or whatever) to automatically convert the images it will use those settings.
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Ben Rubinstein

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Which sharpening setting in camera parameters?
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2005, 07:21:15 am »

If all the parameters are set at '0' should that not theoretically speed up the processing time?
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Jonathan Wienke

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Which sharpening setting in camera parameters?
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2005, 09:20:22 pm »

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I think some "experts" are making erroneous assumptions.
No, it's the ignorant newbies.

That manual quote is only true if you're using Canon's RAW converter with the default settings. If you use ACR or another third-party RAW converter it's very easy to demonstrate that camera settings are totally ignored, except for the camera AWB when "As Shot" white balance is selected. You can also override the conversion defaults in the Canon software, which would be impossible if the settings actually affected the RAW data.

I've shot about 100,000 frames with Canon 1-series DSLRs, most of them RAW. How about yourself?
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Jonathan Wienke

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Which sharpening setting in camera parameters?
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2005, 10:30:14 pm »

Chuck Westfall, Canon North America's Director of Technical Information, has stated that no sharpening or color settings (color matrix, contrast, etc.) are applied to the RAW data of 1-series DSLRs, like the 1D, 1Ds, and their MkII successors. The camera settings are only stored in EXIF tags in the RAW file that Canon software reads and uses as defaults. If you think you know more about RAW processing than him, I suppose you're entitled to your fantasy.
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marty m

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Which sharpening setting in camera parameters?
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2005, 11:35:33 pm »

Thanks very much to all of you for your excellent responses.

Canon needs to rewrite their manuals!  This is a case where the language is clear but they are wrong for anyone who uses photoshop for raw conversions.
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DerekKemp

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Which sharpening setting in camera parameters?
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2005, 03:33:04 pm »

Jumping in a little late I know, but just wondering:
This discussion has revolved around the 1D series. Does the same apply to the 20D?  I am assuming it does.
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thierrylegros396

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Which sharpening setting in camera parameters?
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2005, 02:42:17 am »

Jonathan, how do you know that consumer grade cameras uses small amount of sharpening ?
Where have you found that ?
I would be happy to obtain more informations about RAW format usedin the 300D and 350D !
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Jonathan Wienke

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Which sharpening setting in camera parameters?
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2005, 10:03:00 am »

Chuck Westfall, Canon USA's director of technical information, posted that on Rob Galbraith's forums about the same time the 1D-MkII came out. Do a search over there and I'm sure you can find it.
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marty m

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Which sharpening setting in camera parameters?
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2005, 04:53:57 pm »

Thanks in advance for any responses.

Both the 1Ds and the 1Ds MkII have a setting for sharpening in the camera parameters that is set through software. This affects both raw and JPEG. The manuals don't state what the recommended default is, although it shows it set at 1 -- the lowest setting. (The highest is 5.) The 1Ds Mk II also has a setting for contrast with the range from -2 to +2. (Whether that impacts acutance as discussed in other postings is a good question.)

I shoot raw. What should the correct setting be for sharpness and contrast? I assume the lowest setting of 1 -- and then do any sharpening in processing using software?

Finally, I am running a series of shots comparing the 1Ds and the 1Ds MkII over the weekend. For that purpose alone, I set sharpening in both cameras at 1. I set contrast at 0 since I assume that might be the default in the range of -2 to +2.

Any suggestions on how to set the in-camera settings for shooting raw -- both on a permanent basis and for the purpose of comparing the two cameras?
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marty m

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Which sharpening setting in camera parameters?
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2005, 08:18:37 pm »

That is not what the manual says. The 1Ds software manual says that "the intensity [sharpness] and object settings are applied to both JPEG and RAW images."  The previous page of the 1Ds software manual says "for JPEG images, all the parameters are applied. For RAW images, only the tone curve data and sharpness settings are applied."

Sharpness IS applied to the raw image by the camera -- unless the manual is wrong. That is why I am wondering what setting works best, or whether it should be set to 0 and all sharpening done in software.

(Unless this is like color matrix -- a tag is applied that can be accepted or rejected in raw processing.  But that makes no sense, since sharpening is not an accept or reject choice like a color matrix.  And sharpening has too many variables to be tagged that way.  Again, the manual simply says that sharpening IS applied.  The language is prettry clear, unless it is wrong.)

The manual for the mark II is silent on the question. At least I can't find any statement that says whether sharpening applies to both RAW and JPEG one way or the other.

In my previous posting, I said that the range for sharpening is 1 to 5. It is actually 0 to 5.

So I return to my previous question:

Which sharpening setting should be used for RAW?
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marty m

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Which sharpening setting in camera parameters?
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2005, 09:38:08 pm »

You might be right, but here is what the camera manual says, when it refers back to the software manual:

"The image you capture can be processed automatically by the camera according to one of three sets of processing pararmeters. .  ."

The statement that the image is "processed automatically" is quite clear.  If this is not applied by Canon to the raw image as you and Michael suggest, the manuals are wrong.  Because in combination, the language is very clear.
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Jonathan Wienke

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Which sharpening setting in camera parameters?
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2005, 10:25:10 pm »

Quote
You might be right, but here is what the camera manual says, when it refers back to the software manual:

"The image you capture can be processed automatically by the camera according to one of three sets of processing pararmeters. .  ."
All of that crap is stored in the RAW file as tags in the EXIF data, and has absolutely zero effect on the RAW data itself. Canon's RAW converters will liik at the EXIF and set their defaults accordingly, but you are 100% free to ignore or override the defaults if you choose. If you use a third-party converter like Adobe Camera RAW, the only default setting it uses is white balance if you select the "As Shot" option. Everything else follows ACR's defaults and all other camera settings are totally ignored.
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Jonathan Wienke

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Which sharpening setting in camera parameters?
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2005, 09:41:03 am »

Nope. The actual tags are integer values in the RAW file, which occupy the exact same space and take the exact same amount of time to write whatever their value. If you're processing with anything but Canon software, everything but the AWB setting is ignored anyway.
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Leigh

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Which sharpening setting in camera parameters?
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2005, 09:09:00 pm »

In shooting RAW with my 20D, I keep a Custom Parameter Set, with only the Contrast setting backed fully off to prevent the highlights from being blown in very contrasty scenes.

  I can see the difference in the Highlight Alert, and in image results.

  I think some "experts" are making erroneous assumptions.

  The Canon 20D manual, pg 47 states: "RAW images are processed according to the white balance, color space, and PROCESSING PARAMETERS set at the time of shooting."

  Leigh
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Leigh

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Which sharpening setting in camera parameters?
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2005, 09:36:30 pm »

Below is a footnote to an an article, Understanding RAW File Format,  on Photoexcels site.

   http://www.photoxels.com/tutorial_raw.html

Feedback From Readers:

The statement:

"RAW file format is the uncompressed, unprocessed data file captured by the camera's image sensor, before any in-camera processing has been applied. In this sense, it is the digital equivalent to the film negative."
might be a bit misleading as it is not really true and continues the propagation of this RAW myth.

    There is processing done, in most cases, to RAW data. This includes various NR (DFS and dark current), lossy compression (in the case of the compressed NEF format), loss-less compression (Canon TIF/CRW/CR2 formats), WB adjustments (in the original D1
and early D1x models) and (in the case of the 10D/300D) even sharpening applied in the RAW format.

And these are just the adjustments to the RAW file that are known about. The truth is, few people outside the camera companies know the full extend of data tweaking that goes into the RAW files.

A better wording might be:

"RAW file format is the data file captured by the camera's image sensor, with minimal in-camera processing applied. In this sense, it is the digital equivalent to the film negative."

--Steven Noyes

Leigh
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Jack Flesher

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Which sharpening setting in camera parameters?
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2005, 11:00:38 pm »

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 I can see the difference in the Highlight Alert, and in image results.

 
  Leigh
You can see it in your preview because the in-camera settings ARE used to generate the jpeg PREVIEW of the RAW you are looking at...  But it is only the PREVIEW and no modification to the RAW file has occured.

HOWEVER as previously stated, your RAW file is just that -- RAW with no processing.

ALSO NOTE THIS: Your Canon SOFTWARE manual says otherwise because the CANON DPP software DOES use the sharpening (and other in-camera) tags from the exif data and AUTOMATICALLY applies them during conversion.  (It's designers basically assume you are too stupid to make your own adjustments on the fly...)  But this ONLY applies to RAWS processed by Canon's software.  In contrast, all of the high-end 3rd party raw converters like RSE, C1, ACR or Bibble, do NOT use any of the jpeg setting tags to adjust anything (other than WB) in their raw conversion processes.  

Cheers,

Jack
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Jonathan Wienke

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Which sharpening setting in camera parameters?
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2005, 04:29:39 pm »

They're simply assuming you're using their software.
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Jonathan Wienke

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Which sharpening setting in camera parameters?
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2005, 04:58:26 pm »

The consumer-grade cameras (D30, D60, 10D, 20D, 300D, 350D) apply a very small amount of USM sharpening to the RAW data, but this is independent of the in-camera sharpening settings and cannot be turned off or adjusted by the user. The 1-series bodies leave RAW as-is.
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