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Author Topic: Max print size from 6Mb camera  (Read 13296 times)

Lisa Nikodym

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« on: September 22, 2004, 12:32:43 pm »

[font color=\'#000000\']A little simple math:
If the pixels are similar quality (which they probably are in this case, if you use similar quality lenses), then the increased print size you'll get for more pixels, in terms of each linear dimension, is the ratio of the square root of the number of pixels.  In other words, you'll get 15% bigger prints in each dimension for the 8 mp compared with the 6 mp.  So if 6 mp can give you 12"x18" (just as an example), then 8 mp will give you about 13.9"x20.8" with the same quality.  Not that big a difference, IMO.

Lisa

(P.S.  Can you tell I'm an engineer? ::  )[/font]
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dtrayers

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« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2004, 11:09:57 am »

[font color=\'#000000\']Excellent narrative, Lin.

Could you expand more on the concept of 'marker pixels'?  Perhaps show an example of what you're referring to?[/font]
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Quentin

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« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2004, 11:04:34 am »

[font color=\'#000000\']Very interesting.  What Lin is I think defining in more precise terms is what I have called the "falling apart" point.  A digital image, unlike a film image, can look superb and detailed, then suddenly fall apart when you reach a certain magnification.  Presumably this is the point where the marker pixels, in Lin's terminology, become apparent.   This effect is not apparent with fim, where degradation in image quality appears more of a progressive process.

Quentin[/font]
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2004, 02:52:39 pm »

[font color=\'#000000\']I only add enough noise at 8000x12000 to disguise the digital artifacts that are unavoidable when enlarging by ~300%. When downsizing to print 11x17 or smaller @300DPI, the noise will average out and isn't visible in the print. Noise will be somewhat noticeable on a 24x36 print, but you still have to be looking for it to see it. It's still much cleaner than film, the noise I add is just a bit of spice to cover up the upsizing and sharpening artifacts.[/font]
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2004, 08:43:22 pm »

[font color=\'#000000\']My experience is that judiciously added noise/grain doesn't improve perceived sharpness (it actually does the opposite, since it tends to "fuzz" the edges of objects), but it can increase the perception of fine detail, which isn't quite the same thing. The main thing is that it disguises image artifacts that othewise scream "I'm a digital image" to the non-casual viewer. This makes it harder for film snobs to dismiss an image just because they can tell it came from a digital camera. If they can't tell, they can't criticize.

I use Neat Image to reduce noise as much as possible, upsize, sharpen, and then add controlled amounts of fine grained noise to the upsized, sharpened image. Using Rodinal is kind of like sharpening before noise removal, it will increase edge acutance and visible noise simultaneously.[/font]
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RICHARDLEIFER

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« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2004, 10:46:58 am »

[font color=\'#000000\']Hi Guys

I'm new to this digital game and need to know a few answers. I'm looking to get either a Nikon D70 or a Canon 20D. I have a few Nikon lenses from my film gear so financially Nikon would be cheaper, but the Canon is 8MB compared to 6Mb for the Nikon. Can anyone tell me using a good lens and a tripod what is the largest print that I could get from the Nikon and if I went for the Canon how much of a gain in quality would the extra 2Mb sensor give me in print size? I know this isn't an exact science but any guidance would be great.

Many thanks

Richard[/font]
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61Dynamic

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« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2004, 12:09:10 pm »

[font color=\'#000000\']I personally have printed 6mp images as large as 16x20 and I know a local photographer that regularly makes prints 18x24 and 20x30 with a S2 Pro that look great standing 3-4ft. away.[/font]
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andrew hall

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« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2004, 06:50:36 pm »

[font color=\'#000000\']It seems to be fairly widely accepted that with Epson printers at least 240 dpi and 360 dpi are optimum print settings (I'm sure there will be other views, some also say 300 dpi for example). I have used both quite a lot and I do find that I can see the difference, so I prefer 360 but 240 is not bad at all. That will give you some print sizes.

To print larger than that you are getting into resizing software and  prints that are best viewed not too close up. In both cases the factors there will be common to both cameras.

Andrew[/font]
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Lin Evans

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« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2004, 05:12:49 am »

[font color=\'#000000\']Unlike film, where grain intrudes in the enlargement process long before exhausting resolution, digital allows enlargement until resolution exhaustion stops us. Simply speaking, film is always grain limited for resolution purposes while digital is always resolution limited.

Since film has well known limits - such as 16 x 24 inches for fine grain color - we naturally wonder what these limits are for a certain digital "resolution."  Obviously, as mentioned here and in countless posts, there is a "fixed" size print possible from a native digital capture which depends on the actual number of pixels in the vertical and horizontal file matrix (such as 1600 by 1200 for 2 megapixel captures) and the print density desired (such as 300 dpi). By simply dividing this file matrix by the print density (1600/300 and 1200/300) we see, in this case, 5.33 by 4 inches. Regardless of the actual file size, the thing which becomes immediately apparent is that there is but "one" print size possible with a digital file and a fixed print density unless we either add or subtract pixels.

So, how does this relate to maximum print size? Any deviation downward from the native size possible with a given print density means we must remove pixels. Removing pixels, to a point, has little effect on print quality - that is we are loosing "some" detail, but as the print size decreases, our ability to actually see these difference with the naked eye decreases accordingly so that in general we might say that there is no appreciable effect on the print. But what about when we enlarge and add pixels?

Any time pixels are added, we must have some "pattern" upon which to build these new pixel. This is done by various software algorithms known collectively as "interpolation."  Interpolation, simply put, is a process whereby available adjacent pixels are examined (remember, at this point pixels are simply numbers representing small areas of color) and depending on their existing values, new pixels of like or intermediate values are actually "created."  How well this works depends on the specifics of the algorithm and the degree that the available pixels accurately represent "reality" in the capture. This, in turn, depends a great deal upon how many pixels were available to "define" the particular geographic area of the frame.

It quickly becomes apparent that the more pixels we have available in a frame limited geography, the more likely it will be that we have an accurate representation of the detail within the frame. So, two factors play into the equation now. First, the number of pixels then the physical, geographical, size of the environment contained within the frame.

Let's look at a couple scenarios and see how this might work. First assume we have a small frame geometry - something like a head and shoulders portrait of a human. Considering the resolving limits of the lens and even with a reasonably small file matrix, there isn't too much here to "define" so that even a reasonably low resolution capture such as 3 or 4 megapixels may be quite sufficient to give an accurate representation of available detail. Next assume a large frame geometry, meaning we capture a relatively large portion of the environment with lots of detail - say something like a hyperfocal wide angle scene. This differs greatly because there is much, much more geography and detail to attempt to define within this frame and what happens when there are insufficient pixels to do this?

Briefly, let's digress and examine how our brains work. When an artist paints and oil of a mountain and forest scene, deception is used to "represent" detail. A few brush strokes represents a grassy field, leaves or pine needles, distant rocks, etc., and our brains have no problem at all "seeing" what the artist wishes us to see. Of course if we are forced to view the painting very closely and under intense magnification, the deception is revealed and we are forced to see simply brush strokes in oil. But step away a bit and the brain again happily interprets these brush stroke as adequate representation for what they "stand for" in the real world.

The digital equivalent of these brush strokes are what I like to call "marker pixels."  Marker pixels happen when there are insufficient pixels available to properly define boundaries of detail in the environment and denote position, color and rough shapes, which when viewed from a distance or when the physical print size is small enough, pass for adequate representation of the detail our brains "expect" to see. On the other hand, because of the very low noise in pro-level digital captures, we can enlarge enough to actually see them, and it's like looking at the oil painting under the magnifying glass up close. The "deception" is revealed and the "magic" is lost and we see them for what they are.

Back to interpolation now. Interpolation algorithms very accurately reproduce what was actually captured. When the boundaries of true detail are adequately defined as in the head and shoulders portrait, these algorithms faithfully reproduce this detail at nearly any print size limited only by the print technology. On the other hand when the interpolation algorithm encounters marker pixels, it faithfully duplicates them as well so that eventually, somewhere in the enlargement process as we make larger and larger prints, we reach a point where these marker pixels transcend the threshold of visual recognition and we are forced to see them for what they are. At this point we must either back up to a smaller print size, or view the print from a greater distance.

So what this all boils down to is that with digital, the amount of enlargement possible varies a great deal depending on the capture resolution, actual detail in the subject and frame geography. There is no "fixed" limit for a particular capture resolution which varies widely depending on subject matter and field of view.  The better interpolation algorithms quite accurately reproduce what they find at the pixel level. When they find true detail they can hold that pattern very well at huge print sizes. When they encounter marker pixels they very accurately reproduce this pseudo-detail and when a certain point in the enlargement process is reached, we plainly see these electronic "brush strokes" and it simply doesn't look "right" to us.

It's an issue we really never had to deal with with film thanks to the intrusion of grain which limited our degree of enlargement well before these marker pixels became apparent. With digital there is as yet no handy dandy "rule of thumb" which tells us that for a particular electronic "resolution" we can be absolutely assured of a great image beyond the "uninterpolated" file size. Of course we rarely are happy with the uninterpolated size and also it rarely falls within any "standardized" print size.

The easiest way I've found is to crop an area of fine detail in the capture then enlarge the crop by some incremental percentages. Once a limit is reached where marker pixels are clearly visible, revert to the last percentage where you can't see them and that percentage will produce the optimal print size for that specific capture.

Best regards,[/font]
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Lin Evans

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« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2004, 02:14:42 pm »

[font color=\'#000000\']
Quote
Could you expand more on the concept of 'marker pixels'?  Perhaps show an example of what you're referring to?

Much of what we see in a photograph is actually synthesized by our brains based on past experiences, mental templates and expectations. The human brain has a powerful ability to synthesize data into meaningful images especially if there is something about the data which corresponds to mental "templates" which exist in our memory. We've all seen eagles, (or at least good images of them) and so it's quite easy to recognize the following sequence.

This eagle was feasting on a Canadian Goose which had been temporarily frozen to the ice on this lake. It's pretty easy for all to realize that there are numerous "feathers" blown by the wind as the Bald Eagle pick away at the goose. Without me telling you, you quite probably wouldn't recognize that the prey was a goose, but observation with a high powerwed spotting scope assured me that it was.

This photo was taken with about a 600mm telephoto focal length using a 2 megapixel camera. Though the eagle is easily recognized in the original tight crop, which represents only a tiny portion of the full 2 megapixel frame, there really were not "sufficient" pixels to properly define the subject. We recognize it in the first two frames primarily because of the "context."  As strange as this may sound, what we are doing is comparing the pixels with our mental construct of what we believe an eagle should look like. We see the shape of wings, head, beak, eyes, tallons and get some idea that it's feeding on some feathered prey because we think we see "feathers" blown to and frozen on the ice beside it.

The second enlargement represents about the maximum we can enlarge to print and still truly identify the bird. Are we actually seeing details of an eagle? Not at all. We simpliy have not brought the marker pixels to the threshold of human recognition.

In the final (bottom) enlargement, we are near pixel level and without prior knowledge and the ability to compare the three, we would only be able to guess as to what we were seeing.

First look at the third image up close, then walk away from your monitor while continuing to view it. At some distance, you will suddenly again see an eagle "head". This shows the relationship viewing distance has on the process of synthesis of marker pixels into perceived detail.

This is not the best example, but it's the only one I have handy. You can easily test this by cropping leaves on distant trees, etc., and enlarging them until you see that some of them may only be defined by four or five pixels. Obviously zero detail, but sufficient to fool us when it furnishes just enough information for the brain to perform the miracle of synthesis.

Lin

[/font]
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Jack Flesher

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« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2004, 02:40:40 pm »

[font color=\'#000000\']I have sucessfully interpolated 6MP files up to 36x48 prints at 240PPI resolution.

However, as Lin pointed out, the ability to do this will vary with the base file -- even files from the same camera/lens combinations as subject matter plays an important role.  

Sufice it to say -- and IMO only -- with a decent lens you can easily get to 16x24 with most any properly exposed and properly focused 6MP file.  Beyond that it will be file dependant.

Regards,
Jack[/font]
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Lin Evans

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« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2004, 10:31:50 am »

[font color=\'#000000\']
Quote
once u print some lightjets u'll never want to do inkjets again.

Actually, that's overstating the case quite a bit. We use LightJet and Durst Lambda along with Epson Injket and see very little qualitative difference, if any.

Primarily the advantage of LightJet or Durst Lambda printing is to get a print which won't run in the unlikely event it's exposed to moisture. For larger prints such as panoramas, we prefer Epson 9600, etc.

A nice comparison was the approximately four by seventeen foot Epson 9600 print of the beautiful pano captured with a  BetterLight  scanning back by Peter Grote in Nepal verusus Max Lyon's 8x12 foot gigapixel plus stitch printed in sections by LightJet. Both these beautiful huge images were displayed at PMA in Las Vegas and though captured with totally different technology, each was also printed beautifully by totally different technology. I don't believe anyone who saw them with their own eyes could pick one print technology over the other.

http://www.betterlight.com/pressRelease_ma...sp?releaseID=17

http://www.tawbaware.com/maxlyons/gigapixel.htm

Lin[/font]
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howard smith

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« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2004, 11:23:54 am »

[font color=\'#000000\']In my opinion, the answer depends very much on several things.  One being what you consider a decent print.  That is highly subjective and personal.  On person's great print is another's junk.

A second is the viewing distance.  Take for example a bill board.  If I stand close, I cannot see a picture, but simply an array of colored circles on a white background.  As I backup, a picture starts to form, until I get far enough waway that my eye can no longer resolve the circles and they start to run together.  I picture on the bill board becomes sharper until from a couple blocks away, it is a pretty good print (subjectively).

The more information in the original file, the closer I can be to the print.  But as I back up, fine detailin the print becomes less than theeye can resolve an disappears.  Backup far enough and you can't see any difference between an "tack sharp" Ansel Adams 8x10 contact print and a Wheetie's box.

The farther back I stand, the sharper a fuzzy print becomes.  If I stand back far enough, a detail the size of a dinner plate on the print will look like a point and a detail the size of dime will disappear.  (That's how depth o field works.)[/font]
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Bobtrips

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« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2004, 12:36:26 pm »

[font color=\'#000000\']
Quote
This technique keeps prints from having a "digital" artifacty look, and duplicates the gradual image enlargement look of film.
Do you think that the 'better' look of digital with added noise is a function of your history of looking at prints made from film?  Or do you think there is something intrinsically 'better' about 'noisy/grainy' images?

I haven't had the opportunity to view any 'clean' and 'noisy' prints side-by-side, but I'm guessing that the preference for 'noisy' comes from a history of looking a grainy prints.  I suspect that many younger people, those who mature in the digital age, will not acquire the same appreciation of grain.  For them clean digital images will look better, noisy/grainy images will look old fashioned.[/font]
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CJD

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« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2004, 12:08:45 pm »

[font color=\'#000000\']This forum is such a cool place to learn things.

I have just bought a low useage second hand 7600 so all the information given on this thread is so useful as I enter the world of large(ish) format printing.

The workflow that Jonathan describes is very interesting.

There is so much to learn!!

What programme/CS-Plugin are people using to up ress images (is Genuine Fractals still a contender)?

Thanks in advance

Chris[/font]
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Mike Saxon

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« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2004, 07:57:00 pm »

[font color=\'#000000\']An interesting technique from Jonathon, about adding "synthetic grain" back into a digital image to reduce the perception of digital artifacts.

My question: is there any research evidence that added grain gives the psychological perception of sharpness (even though the scientific measurements of MTF or LPM may disagree)?

A phenomenon I noticed when doing darkroom enlargements: medium format Kodak Technical Pan negatives gave amost grain-free prints and skies that were 'creamy smooth', but there seemed to be something missing in sharpness. I was using Rodenstock Apo enlarging lenses, but prints made from Tri-X developed in Rodinal seemed to have the edge (excuse the pun) in perceived sharpness, although the grain was very visible.

Is there a psychological connection, that would support the thesis that adding some random grain might improve the perception of sharpness?

Mike[/font]
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framah

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« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2004, 11:09:41 am »

[font color=\'#000000\']Well... based on my Canon D60 which is 6.3 mp, I have printed images almost 24" wide. I save my files off as a  Genuine Fractals file and it allows me to print that large.

 I actually experimented to see just how big it would go. I put the 44" wide paper into my printer and sent the file off to print that large. I wanted to find out how much the image was degraded. Close up, it was loose but, when I stepped back to view an image that big... about 5' or 6'.. it looked pretty good!
 Certainly not crisp but not bad for that large from that small a file.  My prints at 24" wide are certainly crisp enough.[/font]
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Madness

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« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2004, 03:59:52 am »

[font color=\'#000000\']well, I've got one of mine (from a D60) on display printed at 6 square meters (2x3m or roughly 6.5x10ft)

this was at the opening of the display (floating support structure), now they are hanging on the banks of the river

[/font]
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nineinone

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« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2004, 01:44:58 am »

[font color=\'#000000\']while techincally any file can be upsampled indefinitely, the rule of thumb I use is what the Lightjet can output, which is simply the best printer out there. the lightjet interpolates as low as 150 dpi, and then converts that to 304 dpi. that means that the Lightjet can interpolate a 300 dpi file at ~6x10 into a ~ a 13x19 print. once u print some lightjets u'll never want to do inkjets again.[/font]
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2004, 11:39:29 am »

[font color=\'#000000\']With film, detail kind of gradually fades into the film grain as the degree of enlargement is increased. You can duplicate this with digital by over-enlarging, adding enough noise to disguise to disguise the enlargement and other digital artifacts, and then downsizing to the desired final pixel dimensions.

I use this technique on all my large prints. I open the file, do noise reduction, CA correction, perspective tweaks, and color/tonal adjustments, upsize to about 12000x8000 pixels, then do my creative sharpening. Then I add just enough noise (typically 2-4% Gaussian monochromatic) to disguise any sharpening and upsizing artifacts, and save this version as my master file. Print files are cropped and downsized from this file. This technique keeps prints from having a "digital" artifacty look, and duplicates the gradual image enlargement look of film.[/font]
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