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Author Topic: Experiences of switching to Medium format  (Read 4658 times)

Shikharesh

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Experiences of switching to Medium format
« on: December 10, 2010, 08:51:57 pm »

I mostly do mountain landscape photography as an amateur and wanted better quality in terms of resolution and highlight capture. Currently a 5D II user, I tried the Mamiya 645AFD. While adopting the workflow is not difficult and the bulk manageable, the biggest issue was the transfer to digital. While slides were detailed and vivid, I am yet to find a lab in Singapore who would do a decent job. Much of the details are being lost on the scan and I keep sending the slides back for rescanning. Buying a scanner is one option but its bulky and time consuming (4800 dpi with ICE takes 30 minutes on Epson 700).

I looked at digital backs which overcomes these problems, and also offers a wider dynamic range. Apart from being expensive, battery life on most is only good for less than 100 shots and some have built-in fans (dust issue). The areas I go to have no access to electricity to re-charge batteries for 2/3 days and carrying backup lead acids or solar is not an option due to bulk.

I would be interested on some advice on how others are dealing with the two problem of handling battery life in outdoor shooting and dust issue on digital backs
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ziocan

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Re: Experiences of switching to Medium format
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2010, 12:51:21 am »

I mostly do mountain landscape photography as an amateur and wanted better quality in terms of resolution and highlight capture. Currently a 5D II user, I tried the Mamiya 645AFD. While adopting the workflow is not difficult and the bulk manageable, the biggest issue was the transfer to digital. While slides were detailed and vivid, I am yet to find a lab in Singapore who would do a decent job. Much of the details are being lost on the scan and I keep sending the slides back for rescanning. Buying a scanner is one option but its bulky and time consuming (4800 dpi with ICE takes 30 minutes on Epson 700).

I looked at digital backs which overcomes these problems, and also offers a wider dynamic range. Apart from being expensive, battery life on most is only good for less than 100 shots and some have built-in fans (dust issue). The areas I go to have no access to electricity to re-charge batteries for 2/3 days and carrying backup lead acids or solar is not an option due to bulk.

I would be interested on some advice on how others are dealing with the two problem of handling battery life in outdoor shooting and dust issue on digital backs

I have a Phase one and I think this back can take care of some of your worries:
It is sort of sealed, it does not have a fan and is dust proof and somewhat water proof, though the camera you will use with it, may not be.
Though I normally shoot hundreds of frames in few hours and that some what allow me to get more captures per batterie than other users, the batteries last on average 200/250 captures and are basically Canon camcorder batteries and can be bought after market for less than 20usd each.
I have one "Phase original battery" (though such thing does not exist) which is normally sold for 80/90 usd and it does not last longer than the aftermarkets ones I have.
I think when you have 6/8 of them you are probably good for few days and the bulk is minimal. Sure they are much less bulky than the amount of film you may need to carry for few days.


One big con of the Phase backs, is the LCD display which is nearly unusable for reviewing images. since you shoot landscape and you are outside, when under strong light, it could be very annoying. Of course you can always rely on the histogram.
But if you are normally waiting 30 minutes for a scan to complete.... the LCD should be a minor annoyance in comparison.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Experiences of switching to Medium format
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2010, 01:25:08 am »

Hi,

I'd suggest Ziocan's suggestions are good ones!

With regard to scanning MF film I have a dedicated film scanner. When shooting, MF I was mostly using Velvia, that film is difficult to scan. I loved MF and my scanner, but essentially stopped using both since I converted to digital. Digital matched my needs.

About a year ago I started reevaluating MF analog and done a lot of comparisons. With the stuff I'm using digital comes out on top. A scanned image may outresolve digital for some detail, but usually it won't. Velvia I was using is not good at reproducing a large subject brightness range (SBR). Negative film may be another story.

I have a length writeup on my finding so far here:

http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/16-pentax67velvia-vs-sony-alpha-900

What the article does not say is that I spent a lot of time and some money on the 120 shots. With digital I essentially nailed everything on the first or second shot.

In essence, if you don't want to mess with MF film you may consider a Sony Alpha (900/850), a Canon 5DII or a Nikon D3X. Those cameras will give you excellent results. You may of course try to find a lab doing drum scans for MF.

I have not had the opportunity to use an MFDB, but a decent MFDB on a decent camera body should give excellent results. But be aware that MF is not without issues, check out these articles:

http://www.josephholmes.com/news-sharpmediumformat.html
http://www.josephholmes.com/news-medformatprecision.html

Not that DSLRs would not have similar issues:

https://www.lensrentals.com/news/2010.03.06/this-lens-is-soft-and-other-facts

Lloyd Chambers of Diglloyd (R) frame also found a lot of issue with lenses and camera bodies.

Best regards
Erik

I have a Phase one and I think this back can take care of some of your worries:
It is sort of sealed, it does not have a fan and is dust proof and somewhat water proof, though the camera you will use with it, may not be.
Though I normally shoot hundreds of frames in few hours and that some what allow me to get more captures per batterie than other users, the batteries last on average 200/250 captures and are basically Canon camcorder batteries and can be bought after market for less than 20usd each.
I have one "Phase original battery" (though such thing does not exist) which is normally sold for 80/90 usd and it does not last longer than the aftermarkets ones I have.
I think when you have 6/8 of them you are probably good for few days and the bulk is minimal. Sure they are much less bulky than the amount of film you may need to carry for few days.


One big con of the Phase backs, is the LCD display which is nearly unusable for reviewing images. since you shoot landscape and you are outside, when under strong light, it could be very annoying. Of course you can always rely on the histogram.
But if you are normally waiting 30 minutes for a scan to complete.... the LCD should be a minor annoyance in comparison.

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yaya

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Re: Experiences of switching to Medium format
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2010, 05:42:58 am »

I mostly do mountain landscape photography as an amateur and wanted better quality in terms of resolution and highlight capture. Currently a 5D II user, I tried the Mamiya 645AFD. While adopting the workflow is not difficult and the bulk manageable, the biggest issue was the transfer to digital. While slides were detailed and vivid, I am yet to find a lab in Singapore who would do a decent job. Much of the details are being lost on the scan and I keep sending the slides back for rescanning. Buying a scanner is one option but its bulky and time consuming (4800 dpi with ICE takes 30 minutes on Epson 700).

I looked at digital backs which overcomes these problems, and also offers a wider dynamic range. Apart from being expensive, battery life on most is only good for less than 100 shots and some have built-in fans (dust issue). The areas I go to have no access to electricity to re-charge batteries for 2/3 days and carrying backup lead acids or solar is not an option due to bulk.

I would be interested on some advice on how others are dealing with the two problem of handling battery life in outdoor shooting and dust issue on digital backs


Leaf backs can take big batteries that are available online cheap
Fan has never created any issues in dusty conditions

Yair
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Shikharesh

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Re: Experiences of switching to Medium format
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2010, 09:12:23 am »

Great responses, thanks a bunch. One question I would have is how does the result get affected using a non-digital lens, as against a specially quoted digital lens (for mamiya the D series)? Is it neccessary to switch to the more expensive digital lenses?

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bradleygibson

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Re: Experiences of switching to Medium format
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2010, 11:16:11 am »

I use my medium format gear in the winter in the mountains of the American Pacific Northwest and have owned Phase One, Sinar and Hasselblad digital backs.  Currently, I own a Leaf back.

Digital backs are extremely power hungry in the first place, compared to your small format camera.  You will need to bring more extra batteries then you are used to when you are away from power.  In the cold, the batteries do run down more quickly, but not excessively.  I hope I am not cursing myself by saying this, but I have never lost a shot in the wilderness due to a lack of battery power.  It is something that is relatively straightforward to plan for.  Just be aware that bringing many more batteries than you are accustomed to will become the norm.

If I have a busy day of shooting, I can go through three batteries a day.  If I actively manage my battery power (which I usually do), I can cut my battery usage rate by 2-3x.

As for dust, the digital back sensor collects more dust than the small format cameras.  I believe the interior of medium format cameras is signficantly dustier, and the lack of self-cleaning sensor technology contributes to this difference as well.

Still, with the digital back sensor so readily accessible, cleaning is not problematic.  If my gear is clean when I depart, I am usually fine for the duration of the trip, provided my back is never removed, and I am diligent about not exposing the interior of the camera to the elements.  At the end of such multi-day trips, there are usually a few minor spots that need to be removed, but nothing that requires significant work.  A handful of times, things have gotten bad in the field--cleaning in the field in a sheltered environment (cave, tent, etc.) was not a problem.

You'll find that medium format is signficantly more light hungry compared to small format than the specs first suggest (you'll be using slower shutter speeds to get enough light, since lenses are slower, maximum usable ISO's are lower and digital back's native ISO's are generally lower than in small format).  But if you've test-driven a setup and find you can accomodate the differences in use, handling and performance, you should find yourself very pleased with the resulting boost in image quality.

I'm not sure if you are on the mountains you are photographing, but alpine photography is probably one of the few places outside the studio where you often have light to burn--if you're above the clouds, on a glacier, as you probably know, there is so much light that your eyes need protection from it.  Medium format cameras are very happy there... :)

On the whole, it's difficult to find 'night and day' differences between "digital" lenses and their predecessors.  Of course, there are specific cases where this is the case, but by and large the differences are not radical.  One strategy might be to compare the price of a digital lens with its non-digital predecessor.  If the price difference is substantial, ask for sample images (full-res, or even raw) from both lenses, from the back you're planning to use.  Often dealers can provide this, as can the community here at LuLa.

Then, and this is important, trust your eyes.  There will be a lot of marketing material and opinions from the sidelines as to which is better and advice on what you should buy, but in the end, trusting your eyes and your knowledge of your intended use will tell you whether or not the digital lenses are worth the premium.

Let us know how it goes,
« Last Edit: December 11, 2010, 11:41:07 am by bradleygibson »
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David Watson

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Re: Experiences of switching to Medium format
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2010, 02:37:23 pm »

I switched from a Nikon D3X outfit to a Hasselblad to improve image quality - which it did.  I had no problem using this setup on a two week trip to Iceland.  Conditions were dusty some days and wet others but I had no problem with the camera or the lenses.  I used a Kata rain cover if there was any dust or rain - a little fiddly but okay.

Battery usage wasn't a problem as I had 4 batteries with me and recharged from a Power Gorilla which easily lasted a fortnight.  I didn't think that the Hasselblad was any heavier to carry than the D3X plus three lenses (14-24, 24-70 and 70-200).  My Iceland kit included a 50-110 zoom, 28mm, and a 210mm in my backpack plus some other bits and pieces in the truck but I would have been happy with this set of lenses.  On my return I swapped the 50-110 for a 35-90 which is a better lens.

Image quality was superb when the light was usable but MFDB's are not good at low light stuff generally due to limitations on exposure times.

I now use an H4D-50 which has Truefocus and I find this works better for me than the Nikon's multi-point focus system.

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ondebanks

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Re: Experiences of switching to Medium format
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2010, 07:01:18 am »

Great responses, thanks a bunch. One question I would have is how does the result get affected using a non-digital lens, as against a specially quoted digital lens (for mamiya the D series)? Is it neccessary to switch to the more expensive digital lenses?



No. "Digital lenses" is for the most part merely a marketing slogan. If you truly want to design a lens which works better on digital than on film, you must first decide on what minimum pixel pitch will be used, then put all your efforts into reaching a spot size at this scale, for all f-stops (except the smallest ones where you can do nothing about diffraction taking over), and ignore effects at scales below this. You will consider the net spectral response of the sensor + IR-cut filter, and weight the chromatic correction of the visual spectrum accordingly. To hell with correcting for the 660-700nm region which film can record, because that's filtered out of the digital bandpass.

Did Mamiya do all this when designing, say, their 80mm f2.8 D lens? Well what do they say themselves? They say that they optimized the lens coatings for digital.  :D 
Other than the coatings, it is exactly the same optical design as the 80/2.8 they've been making since 1975. When digital medium format cameras were no more than a twinkle in some engineer's eye. ::)
See http://www.pebbleplace.com/Personal/Mamiya_80mm_1.html

This is me being tough on marketing people (I am entirely with the late Bill Hicks on this!) - but not on Mamiya optics per se.

I am of the view that Mamiya lenses are as good as any other in MF. And they don't even need to be AF to be the best - you should also take a close look at their older manual focus lenses, like the 200/2.8 APO telephoto, which is so good that it reaches diffraction limited performance between f4 and f5.6 (remember, you want your lenses to be diffraction limited at as wide an aperture as possible - this means that they cannot be bested at that aperture).

Ray
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yaya

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Re: Experiences of switching to Medium format
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2010, 09:55:17 am »

No. "Digital lenses" is for the most part merely a marketing slogan. If you truly want to design a lens which works better on digital than on film, you must first decide on what minimum pixel pitch will be used, then put all your efforts into reaching a spot size at this scale, for all f-stops (except the smallest ones where you can do nothing about diffraction taking over), and ignore effects at scales below this. You will consider the net spectral response of the sensor + IR-cut filter, and weight the chromatic correction of the visual spectrum accordingly. To hell with correcting for the 660-700nm region which film can record, because that's filtered out of the digital bandpass.

Did Mamiya do all this when designing, say, their 80mm f2.8 D lens? Well what do they say themselves? They say that they optimized the lens coatings for digital.  :D 
Other than the coatings, it is exactly the same optical design as the 80/2.8 they've been making since 1975. When digital medium format cameras were no more than a twinkle in some engineer's eye. ::)
See http://www.pebbleplace.com/Personal/Mamiya_80mm_1.html

This is me being tough on marketing people (I am entirely with the late Bill Hicks on this!) - but not on Mamiya optics per se.

I am of the view that Mamiya lenses are as good as any other in MF. And they don't even need to be AF to be the best - you should also take a close look at their older manual focus lenses, like the 200/2.8 APO telephoto, which is so good that it reaches diffraction limited performance between f4 and f5.6 (remember, you want your lenses to be diffraction limited at as wide an aperture as possible - this means that they cannot be bested at that aperture).

Ray


Ray you can take a good, old optical design and optimise not only the coating but also the manufacturing and assembly/ calibration/ testing process so that the overall performance of an already proven design becomes much better, enough to justify marketing it as a new "D" product.

Yair
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ondebanks

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Re: Experiences of switching to Medium format
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2010, 10:45:01 am »

Ray you can take a good, old optical design and optimise not only the coating but also the manufacturing and assembly/ calibration/ testing process so that the overall performance of an already proven design becomes much better, enough to justify marketing it as a new "D" product.

Yair

Absolutely, but if you've done that, you've made an improved lens for all purposes - film, digital and indeed aerial observation. So there's no justification for marketing it specifically as a "digital" lens. That really is just a marketing ploy.
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yaya

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Re: Experiences of switching to Medium format
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2010, 11:35:03 am »

Absolutely, but if you've done that, you've made an improved lens for all purposes - film, digital and indeed aerial observation. So there's no justification for marketing it specifically as a "digital" lens. That really is just a marketing ploy.

I respectfully disagree...because I can see it from both sides.

The fact that you can use a high-end monitor for reading your emails does not mean there's a ploy behind marketing it as a high-end product that is "optimised for digital imaging".

70-80% of high end road racing bikes bought these days are never used for racing, but they are still designed and marketed as race bikes even though they serve as great training/ all-purpose bikes.

These of course are just Two example...it all depend on which side of the transaction you take...the consumer or the vendor...
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Dennis Carbo

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Re: Experiences of switching to Medium format
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2010, 12:27:38 pm »

I was always under the impression that lenses designed for "Film" focused the R G B light at slightly different points to coincide with the film emulsions and "Digital" lenses focus R G B Light on the exact same planes for less CA.

Is this not the case ?  I have never actually compared a digital to a film version of a lens... I seem to remember hearing there was a huge difference between sinaron lenses used on say a P2 or a Cambo DS between the "New Digital Version" and the original flavor.....Anyone actually used both and have real world experience ?
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RobertJ

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Re: Experiences of switching to Medium format
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2010, 05:35:04 pm »

Digital lenses from Rodenstock (HR series) and Schneider (Digitar) that can be used on technical and view cameras are a definite improvement over the film lenses.  They make some of the best, expensive old film lenses look like coke bottles.  No "marketing ploy" there, IMO.
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pcunite

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Re: Experiences of switching to Medium format
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2010, 10:33:05 pm »

I was always under the impression that lenses designed for "Film" focused the R G B light at slightly different points to coincide with the film emulsions and "Digital" lenses focus R G B Light on the exact same planes for less CA.

Is this not the case ?

I think they are simply sharper and have better coatings.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Experiences of switching to Medium format
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2010, 01:02:31 am »

In short no!

To begin with there are MF lenses by Rodenstock and Schneider that are corrected for very high resolution and for a small image circle. These lenses called "Digital" or "Digaron" lenses have very high resolution, or more exactly very high MTF for fine detail, what is often called "microcontrast".

Hasselblad started to design their own lenses for the H-series (they are built buy Fujica). The new lenses outperform the old lenses significantly, according to MTF data published by Hasselblad. (Hasselblad do their own MTF testing).

Leica has also developed new lenses for the S2 which are probably the best lenses they ever built.

This article offers some insight: http://www.imx.nl/photo/leica/camera/page174/s2part2.html

This article from Hasselblad compares the old Zeiss lenses with the new HC-series: http://www.hasselblad.com/media/1663143/the_evolution_of_lenses.pdf

That said, when Tamron or Sigma renames a lens to digital it often means that additional multicasting is done on the real element in order to reduce secondary reflections of the sensor which is more reflective than film.

The final issue that digital is more demanding is that we enlarge it more! We look at actual pixels which really corresponds to looking at the image trough a microscope. The most commonly used slide films have an MTF that drops pretty fast for high frequency (fine detail) so it was no challenge for older lenses. With fine grained low speed film that was a different issue. Under circumstances 135 T-max 100 with a very good lens at f/2.8 could match Tri-X on 4x5 at f/22, under a microscope that is!

Check this: http://www.qpcard.se/BizPart.aspx?tabId=76

In common photography the full frame DSLR really replaced the MF equipment. Well-known artists like Charlie Cramer and Joseph Holmes switched over from 4x5" to MFDBs. When you replace a big piece of film with a small sensor the lens will be much more tested.

Best regards
Erik

I was always under the impression that lenses designed for "Film" focused the R G B light at slightly different points to coincide with the film emulsions and "Digital" lenses focus R G B Light on the exact same planes for less CA.

Is this not the case ?  I have never actually compared a digital to a film version of a lens... I seem to remember hearing there was a huge difference between sinaron lenses used on say a P2 or a Cambo DS between the "New Digital Version" and the original flavor.....Anyone actually used both and have real world experience ?
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ondebanks

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Re: Experiences of switching to Medium format
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2010, 07:30:17 am »

I respectfully disagree...because I can see it from both sides.

The fact that you can use a high-end monitor for reading your emails does not mean there's a ploy behind marketing it as a high-end product that is "optimised for digital imaging".

70-80% of high end road racing bikes bought these days are never used for racing, but they are still designed and marketed as race bikes even though they serve as great training/ all-purpose bikes.

These of course are just Two example...it all depend on which side of the transaction you take...the consumer or the vendor...


OK, I will play with your racing bike analogy  :). The reason it doesn't apply to what I was saying is this: the racing bikes are designed from the beginning as racing bikes. Therefore it is correct to market them as such. It doesn't matter what the purchasers use them for, racing or not. Similarly with the high-end monitor: if it was developed to be "optimised for digital imaging" then fine, market it as such. If I then use it for reading emails, so what? At least I was not misled as to its real qualities and design rationale. I am only questioning whether the marketing blurb matches the design spec.

The Mamiya 80/2.8 lens was designed from the beginning as a general purpose lens for film. Changing the coatings, improving the manufacturing tolerances, and slapping the letter "D" on it does not make it a digitally-optimized lens, and therefore it is just a ploy to market it as such. It has not undergone a full redesign to qualify it for that description.

Other Mamiya lenses which have appeared as brand new designs in the past decade may correctly be marketed as "digital" lenses, as long as digital factors were really taken into account in their design. The new LS lenses, for example - no problem with those.
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ghaynes754

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Re: Experiences of switching to Medium format
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2010, 02:28:40 pm »

I shoot a Hass H3DII-39.  I do multiple exposures of every scene in anticipation of HDR and multiple slices for Panos.  I do a mirror lockup and typically get 800+ exposures on a battery.  If it's cold I either tether or tether to an external battery.
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