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Author Topic: RED Files and Nikon, 1600 iso  (Read 13096 times)

Morgan_Moore

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Re: RED Files and Nikon, 1600 iso
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2010, 11:29:05 am »

My point was that if new AF comes out and 1000 people trade in their RRPs (MF) that is the time to buy

late 2011

S
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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

ChristopherBarrett

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Re: RED Files and Nikon, 1600 iso
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2010, 11:35:26 am »

Heh... not a bad idea at all, M.
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bcooter

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Re: RED Files and Nikon, 1600 iso
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2010, 01:17:19 pm »

@Coot,

If you like the Zeiss glass but prefer the form and function of still lenses, go with the ZF's.  The CP.2's are the same optics, you're paying 4 times the money for the Cine housing and the Still glass is a little faster.

I've spoken to people who've tested the CP.2s and they prefer the Red Primes.  I got the All-Star mount with PL adapter and can use my ZF lenses and my Red 17-50 with no mount change.  All-Star also makes lens adapters for Contax/Yashica (sorry 35 not 645) and Leica R glass.  There are a couple adapters for using Canoin glass on the R1 but they both void your warranty and close any upgrade paths due to how much of the lens mount you  have to disassemble.

Writing checks, no shit man... I want the lightest tripod I'd trust the R1 on and that's 8k for O'Connor head and sticks.  Damn.

One thing I've learned recently... unfortunately... I really prefer strobe to HMI.

Cheers,
CB

CB.

Thx.

I will probably buy a few of the Zeiss nikon mount lenses, just because I am fortunate to work in markets where PL mount lenses are falling out of the trees in rental.

I also will attempt to go to an EPIC if only for the autofocus, but as we all know nobody really does know when the EPIC will be ready to buy.

The cameras for movie biz, makes the world of medium format look utterly transparent.

As far as HMI's we're either buying the k5600's or the Bron Kobals.  I've got a few of the older Bron HMI's and love them, though I've used the Kobals and they don't really turn me on.  I think the K5600 are nice and have more options for modifiers.

I just saw a fairly large foldable fresnel for the k5600's that's pretty cool.

But if I'm not working in daylight I'll always go with tungsten.  I love the look of tungsten with digital as it kind of screws up the blue channel and looks good to my eye.

I also love the simplicity of tungsten and oh yea, the price.

IMO

BC
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ChristopherBarrett

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Re: RED Files and Nikon, 1600 iso
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2010, 03:06:14 pm »

I just rented a few of those Kobalds.  400w give you a lot of power, but if you dial them all the way down you get noticeable flicker.  Also the light quality is ass and only suitable for silks, boxes & bounces.

Gonna have to check out the Profoto units coming out.

Unfortunately my garage full of hotlights are the wrong color balance for the majority of my projects!
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fredjeang

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Re: RED Files and Nikon, 1600 iso
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2010, 03:32:21 pm »

I have a simple and direct question for both Chris and James

Having shooted videos with Red and Dslrs, a part from the design-usability and I know it matters a lot, can you affirm that RED is bringing truly more quality to your video works in the final product?

If so, such an investment is worth 100%. (let's not integrate here if you wish the chalenge motivations etc...)

Some pretented that in fact once you got your final edited movie, the differences are not so noticiable compare to the Canon. Again, who says what in internet. As I trust you both as talented professionals, I rather listen to voices That I know are reliable.

Thanks.

 
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ChristopherBarrett

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Re: RED Files and Nikon, 1600 iso
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2010, 04:07:11 pm »

You know, a lot of people will be perfectly happy with a 5d2.  The fact that none of my work is going to Cinema release, that it's largely going to be on the web or in powerpoints makes the Red massive overkill.

There are two aspects to it though... the malleability of the files... I'm talking substantial dynamic range and the lack of moiré that has plagued my 5d2 footage... that, for me, warranted the expenditure.  I would be hard pressed to advise anyone else to go out and spend 30-50k on a system when they're brand new to motion work, and I wouldn't suggest it to you unless you're were absolutely sure of the potential.

I've already halfway paid for the Red with new work and somehow I just knew in my bones that for me this was going to take off.

It's really all a pain in the ass, the gear is heavy, you need a bigger crew, you have NO idea what the hell you're doing and you've just laid out all this cash... but it's really kind of fun too.

As usual, take me with a grain of salt.

CB
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fredjeang

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Re: RED Files and Nikon, 1600 iso
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2010, 05:22:45 pm »

Thanks Chris. Knowing it's a little out of topic, but in arquitecture don't you perceive a stronger motion demand? In fact, I had some sample movies from an arquitect I know filmed indoor for selling flats. One part was autocad renders, very good actually but when they did serious mov that was another story. I can see the motion really strong in arquitecture. Maybe one day, an Arca on rails with a movie back! he he...
I think we really are into exciting times now despite all we know about what is happening.
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Morgan_Moore

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Re: RED Files and Nikon, 1600 iso
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2010, 06:21:38 pm »

I do photograph some hotels etc - not  to the the CB standard

One of my first reasons to get into motion was to create a market for hotels

I have been learning to operate the steadicam pilot with my 5dMK2 and nikkor 28pc

Of course inanimate objects you can do 5k timelapse cheaply

This shot is a cropzoom timlelapes nikonD3 and a couple of stediacm walks (still getting the hang of SC which is very very hard on static objects)

Of course those looking to avoid moiree can go for say an EX1 or get RAW (2/3chip) from the S2k (i think it is called)



S

« Last Edit: December 06, 2010, 06:26:04 pm by Morgan_Moore »
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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

fredjeang

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Re: RED Files and Nikon, 1600 iso
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2010, 06:55:29 pm »

Morgan, I really liked the brynn farm studio phylosophy. Kept in favorite. If I go to cornwall I'll be pleased to rent it. I'll need those kind of hollidays, a quiet studio in a gorgeous countryside. Are there local models too?(girls and boys)

Cheers.
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Morgan_Moore

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Re: RED Files and Nikon, 1600 iso
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2010, 07:38:19 pm »

OT : no proper fashion models here but some surf girls and boys
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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

ChristopherBarrett

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Re: RED Files and Nikon, 1600 iso
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2010, 10:24:22 pm »

Isn't the D3 a kick-ass timelpase camera?!!! Built-in intervalometer, nice big battery and two CF slots.  Every time I think about selling mine I find some need for it.

CB
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bcooter

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Re: RED Files and Nikon, 1600 iso
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2010, 02:05:36 pm »

You know, a lot of people will be perfectly happy with a 5d2.  The fact that none of my work is going to Cinema release, that it's largely going to be on the web or in powerpoints makes the Red massive overkill.

There are two aspects to it though... the malleability of the files... I'm talking substantial dynamic range and the lack of moiré that has plagued my 5d2 footage... that, for me, warranted the expenditure.  I would be hard pressed to advise anyone else to go out and spend 30-50k on a system when they're brand new to motion work, and I wouldn't suggest it to you unless you're were absolutely sure of the potential.
CB

I agree with CB and can put this into simple terms, investment equals return.

Obviously a camera by itself doesn't make you money, or get you booked, unless your a rental house.

The bottom line is will the RED work for my clients?   I think so, it has seemed to and I'll know more in the coming months.

A lot of this depends on what you do.   4k seems like overkill for the web, but I think the consensus is that web play is dramatically changing from video download to streaming and streaming will have an impact on everything we watch from advertising to entertainment.

All of us could write a book on where we think advertising and media is going, but that really isn't in my power to decide for a client where or how they should advertise.  My only thought is to be ready for whatever comes.

I personally think the RED offers me more control over the look and quality of our content and though the still frames are not medium format digital equivalent, they do offer the ability to be used across different mediums and I think more useful than the dslr files.

5d2 still files and still files from motion image

Right now the only thing anyone talks about is cost.   That is where the video capable dslrs have an advantage, not just because the cameras and lenses are cheaper, but because they're small and you can run a lot of them at once with less intrusive camera hardware, less crew.   

I was told yesterday that Hollywood plans are to move into more digital capture from dslrs to the RED and the only reason is costs.  Some people are aghast at that thought, some revel in it.  It just depends on which side of the fence you sit.  I personally think the cost of the camera will have little to do with the quality or look of the content, because it's always come down to the creativity of the story, the quality of the talent and budget.   Just like in still photography post production can dramatically change the look of any file, but just like in still photography the more robust file you start with the more you can do with it.

Just like in still photography, I don't believe it's a one camera world.  There are things you can do with a dslr that you just can't do quickly with the RED, but consequently for certain productions the RED does things a dslr or any video camera doesn't.

After testing a lot of lenses, right now we've decided to make the RED as lightweight and moveable a camera as possible.  Instead of a huge Oconnor head we went with the largest Bogen and a carbon fiber tripod, Zeiss ZF nikon mount lenses and the ways to get the battery off the camera.

We want to build the fastest system we can, because for the next few years, speed of production will be a large component to any project.

IMO

BC





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Chris_Brown

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Re: RED Files and Nikon, 1600 iso
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2010, 03:27:04 pm »

There is a nice article about the 5D2 by a DP on the Creative Cow today. Color depth is one of his biggest concerns, and like me, he wonders if Canon will take up the torch and come out with something that competes with the heavies.
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fredjeang

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Re: RED Files and Nikon, 1600 iso
« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2010, 06:27:19 pm »

Thanks for the link Chris. Very interesting. I agree with Dave Stump's conclutions and they go in alignement with what B.C said in another thread.

James, without permission and in a "pedagogic"intention, I took the file you linked and added for comparing one of my file from a 720 movie. (if you want I delete that file as I didn't ask you permission)
It's interesting, I wanted to see more or less if size matters, and as always, yes size bloody matters. From a 720, I export a frame from the mov and did a quick retouched pushing from 400 to 800isos. This is more or less the size where the file is falling appart. a 40 MB object.

Putting that into numbers, the 720 would give me reducing the image after pp a max of a bearable 20cm printable at 300, bigger it just falls completly appart.

In your still, it's clearly visible that you have more room. In fact, if I had enlarged to the same size it was not tolerable.
Now, I did an instant retouch to see, I could have refined more the grain added by the pushed process  (I passed myself there) etc...but for what? there is not much more to say about it.
The comparaison with your image shows clearly that your still is much more workable.

http://www.fredgasc.com/files/rundsmc2.jpg


Your still was it a 1080 from Canon? or a Red?  
But it's frustrating, with dslrs we can't take advantage of raw neither get the benefit of the sensor size. Grrrrr

Canon? they may come with a surprise. (raw video?) Too many people are using them for video now.

a Kowa for your Red: http://cgi.ebay.com/Arri-PL-Cine-Kowa-25mm-T1-25-Aaton-Red-One-2K-Super-16-/120655788390?pt=UK_Photography_Film_Cameras_ET&hash=item1c17a53966
« Last Edit: December 08, 2010, 06:13:05 am by fredjeang »
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eronald

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Re: RED Files and Nikon, 1600 iso
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2010, 08:39:15 pm »



Canon? they may come with a surprise. (raw video?) Too many people are using them for video now.

It looks like they really did get the message, what is not clear is how they will address the new market niches of mirrorless "SLR" and movie-quality video. It's pretty obvious they are hesitating. Of course in the end the software guys will get to make the profit even if Canon makes the camera.

Edmund
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DesW

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Re: RED Files and Nikon, 1600 iso
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2010, 12:44:51 am »

Isn't the D3 a kick-ass timelpase camera?!!! Built-in intervalometer, nice big battery and two CF slots.  Every time I think about selling mine I find some need for it.

CB

Yes it is--pity about the sensor being a Dust magnet though!

Des
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bcooter

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Re: RED Files and Nikon, 1600 iso
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2010, 01:31:50 pm »



Your still was it a 1080 from Canon? or a Red?  


I posted two links.

One file with a RED , A nikon and another RED file which were frame grabs from RED cinex software at 4k.

red_nikon

The second link was from a 5d2 in two native sizes.  The image on the left is a still quicktime grab from a 1920x1080 video file, the large image on the right was a still shot from the same session using the full 22mpx of the 5d2 in still mode.

5d2_still_motion_images


_______________________________________________

In regards to pulling stills from any video camera, today, it's kind of ok, but not any real clear cut system where one RED or Alexxa file will make a stunning still camera equal file.

It might be good enough for a lot of use, but if you want a still and motion camera in one, the Epic is probably the only answer though few people have seen any results.

red_epic


(go to video 10 FAQ about the Epic)

IMO

BC
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fredjeang

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Re: RED Files and Nikon, 1600 iso
« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2010, 01:41:29 pm »

I posted two links.

One file with a RED , A nikon and another RED file which were frame grabs from RED cinex software at 4k.

red_nikon

The second link was from a 5d2 in two native sizes.  The image on the left is a still quicktime grab from a 1920x1080 video file, the large image on the right was a still shot from the same session using the full 22mpx of the 5d2 in still mode.

5d2_still_motion_images


_______________________________________________

In regards to pulling stills from any video camera, today, it's kind of ok, but not any real clear cut system where one RED or Alexxa file will make a stunning still camera equal file.

It might be good enough for a lot of use, but if you want a still and motion camera in one, the Epic is probably the only answer though few people have seen any results.

red_epic


(go to video 10 FAQ about the Epic)

IMO

BC

 ;D ;D Now I understand my frustration! When I saw the cow-boys, I thought the still file was extract directly from the movie frame and upsampled. When I saw the quality I thought "this is not Canon", I thought that could be Red.(and honestly was impressed, of course it was 22mpx!!)
This is why my upsampled to a 40mb file from the movie frame was falling appart. I mean the file of the model I linked was a frame from the 720 movie from the Pentax, upsampled to 40mb with a little pp.
No surprise I was saying bigger is best!!! Couldn't reach the size you linked and stopped on my image at the point quality has dramatically decreased. (did same testings with the 5D and obtained slightly, very marginally better results from a 1080).
Now I got it.
Thanks for those precisions James.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2010, 01:48:32 pm by fredjeang »
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bcooter

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Re: RED Files and Nikon, 1600 iso
« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2010, 02:19:38 pm »

;D ;D Now I understand my frustration! When I saw the cow-boys, I thought the still file was extract directly from the movie frame and upsampled. When I saw the quality I thought "this is not Canon", I thought that could be Red.(and honestly was impressed)
This is why my upsampled to a 40mb file from the movie frame was falling appart. I mean the file of the model I linked was a frame from the 720 movie from the Pentax, upsampled to 40mb with a little pp.
No surprise I was saying bigger is best!!! Couldn't reach the size you linked and stopped on my image at the point quality has dramatically decreased.
Now I got it.
Thanks for those precisions James.

All the video formats use some type of blending/smoothing to kill noise and/or make a smooth transition from frame to frame.  When in motion everything looks sharp, stopped as a still it looks soft.

The Red looks soft, though less soft than the 5d2 when both are used to pull frame grabs.

What is probably more useful on RED is the 4:4:4 compression and 12 bit, vs. the 10 bit of the Canon.  On a gray scale the Canon holds up, but shooting in the real world the transitions are abrupt, especially if your going from dark medium tones to highlights. 

IMO

BC
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fredjeang

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Re: RED Files and Nikon, 1600 iso
« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2010, 05:45:41 pm »

« Last Edit: December 08, 2010, 05:55:47 pm by fredjeang »
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