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Author Topic: Pentax: "Amateur" product means more value, less dealer margins?  (Read 27318 times)

feppe

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Re: Pentax: "Amateur" product means more value, less dealer margins?
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2010, 08:24:21 PM »

Well, I would say that you answer might or might not be applicable depending on your applications.

- How much is a H4D battery again?
- How many images does it hold at -15C? As a reference point my former Mamiya ZD did max 10 (yes ten) images per fresh warm battery charge below -10C,
- Have you ever managed a 3 days camping trip in cold weather away from any power source?
- Have you ever slept with batteries stored in your sleeping bag/the pockets of your fleece/jacket?
- Have you ever shot pano with DoF stacking requiring 30 to 100 shots per final image in cold conditions?
- How do you manage the logistics and weight of having to carry potentially tens of batteries in these conditions?
- Are you certain when you purchase a camera that you will never want to do these things?

Thks. Considering that about 5 of my 10 best images of 2009/2010 were shot in such conditions, I know my answers to these questions and I believe that the 645D is a much better option. For landscape work away from the road accross seasons, I see zero rational reasons to consider the Hassy 40MP. You could argue that the 60MP backs are superior... but how good is a great sensor without battery? :)

It has been said before, but your requirements are not representative of the average landscape shooters' needs - while requirements for sub-zero temps are not unique, there are orders of magnitude more shooters who won't be shooting in such extreme conditions even in their worst nightmares.

I've never done such shooting, and I'm from Finland. Winters are for editing ;D

ggriswold

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Re: Pentax: "Amateur" product means more value, less dealer margins?
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2010, 08:44:52 PM »

Don't want to get into all the branches of this discussion, but do we know for a fact that non-pros buy "most" or "over half" of the medium format solutions offered by Hasselblad/ Phase one?  We may never know the truth there.

What the Pentax may do (as mentioned) is bring in some DSLR folks into medium format.  So far, sounds like the Pentax does not measure up to either established MF digital system.  14 bits just for starters.  As far as the thread thesis that this is a higher volume sales product... you would have to say yes.  Won't kill the top two. 

Just my two cents...
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feppe

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Re: Pentax: "Amateur" product means more value, less dealer margins?
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2010, 08:53:27 PM »

So far, sounds like the Pentax does not measure up to either established MF digital system.  14 bits just for starters.

The 16-bit MFDB claim has been repeatedly been debunked as marketing spin - rather than two extra bits holding usable data - here by technically inclined people who seem to know what they're talking about.

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Pentax: "Amateur" product means more value, less dealer margins?
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2010, 09:22:06 PM »

It has been said before, but your requirements are not representative of the average landscape shooters' needs - while requirements for sub-zero temps are not unique, there are orders of magnitude more shooters who won't be shooting in such extreme conditions even in their worst nightmares.

I've never done such shooting, and I'm from Finland. Winters are for editing ;D

Fine, I have never claimed that my needs were universal or even representative. :) I have just outlined a few reasons why the Pentax has some unique values for people who need to shoot in the cold, values that are not well matched by the proposal to compensate for the shortcomings of the Hassy by "buying more batteries".

Regardless, I have a hard time finding any reason why a landscape shooter starting from scratch today would select a Hassy instead of a 645D, except perhaps the tilt/shift adapter but it seems hard to use for backpackers (are these also a minority :)). By the way, I owned a H1 for a few years, I am reasonably familiar with the H system and its lenses although I am aware it has of course evolved since then.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 09:33:13 PM by BernardLanguillier »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Pentax: "Amateur" product means more value, less dealer margins?
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2010, 09:41:40 PM »

The 16-bit MFDB claim has been repeatedly been debunked as marketing spin - rather than two extra bits holding usable data - here by technically inclined people who seem to know what they're talking about.

Perhaps LL needs a FAQ? :)

Having spoken with Pentax about this, I know that they decision to stick to 14bits was motivated by the fact that 16 bits was measured to offer zero value compared to 14 bits. Their decision was the right one from an engineering and pricing standpoint, but it was IMHO wrong from a marketing standpoint.
 
Indeed, it seems obvious that many people still buy based on specs as opposed to buying based on measured performance.

Similar things happen in high end audio. More than a few audiophiles will just never truly believe that a 7 kg Devialet or Nuforce P18 amp can outperform significantly an 80kg monster costing 10 times more (the design being mostly made heavy to justify the cost). They know that heavier amps are better amps and whatever you tell them will never truly change their mind.

Pentax should have used a useless 16 bits A\D converter for those guys.

Cheers,
Bernard
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ggriswold

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Re: Pentax: "Amateur" product means more value, less dealer margins?
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2010, 10:16:35 PM »

Tell me more about how oversold/ hyped the HB and Phase One systems are....
Pentax has come in after all the hard work has been done and "claimed" the lower 1/6 of the market.
And what were we supposed to be shooting with for the past X number of years?
Ground breaking.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 10:20:35 PM by ggriswold »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Pentax: "Amateur" product means more value, less dealer margins?
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2010, 10:31:46 PM »

Tell me more about how oversold/ hyped the HB and Phase One systems are....
Pentax has come in after all the hard work has been done and "claimed" the lower 1/6 of the market.
And what were we supposed to be shooting with for the past X number of years?
Ground breaking.

You are right. By the same token I only buy Philips/Sony CD players, Ford cars and will never board a Boeing since the French invented flying. :)

Oops, speaking about boarding, it seems that the A380 is about to get going.

Cheers,
Bernard
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ggriswold

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Re: Pentax: "Amateur" product means more value, less dealer margins?
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2010, 10:37:54 PM »

Thank you Bernard. 
One thing we can certainly agree on is that heavy audio amps are not better... just heavier.  Loved that analogy. 
Gyrodec forever!
Now I have taken this way OT.  Apologies.
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Jay101

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Re: Pentax: "Amateur" product means more value, less dealer margins?
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2010, 02:39:41 AM »

The 645D had HDMI output "for high-resolution image data output", to quote the Pentax press release. Can this provide an image on a remote screen that substitutes adequately for the "polaroid preview" aspect of MF back tethering?

The Pentax Japan site has a cryptic message about an upgrade "to control the computer from your camera". I'd say we'll see Pentax tethering before mid-2011
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eronald

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Re: Pentax: "Amateur" product means more value, less dealer margins?
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2010, 03:45:50 AM »


Well that's a new one on me, John. I never saw another 'blad with anybody other than a pro photographer; it might well be how the 500 and 200 series are seen today, but not the view I knew about them during my tenure.

Rob C

I always had one with an 80mm somewhere at the bottom of my backpack, half of it was paid for as a trade in from the Leica I had as a student :)

Edmund
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eronald

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Re: Pentax: "Amateur" product means more value, less dealer margins?
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2010, 10:16:46 AM »

And I'm sure that there are secret conversations between manufacturers to define more or less where and when to maintain a sort of stable panorama and keep jobs.


UNDER EMBARGO UNTIL 4/1

Zeiss are releasing a new Contax body subcontracted by Pentax. This will be an open system, however Nikon will be supplying a first back with a 30 MP big sensor based on the Nikon D3s for high ISO and Liveview. The body also has an autofocus system sourced from Nikon. Lenses will of course be sourced from Zeiss, with a newly designed shift/leaf shutter 25 mm wide available upon launch. Free tethering software from Phase One includes a new "auto-makeup" feature for portrait, and a "dehair" plugin specially developed for japanese glamor. For the first PROFESSIONAL 500 buyers, the camera kit includes a prefilled made-in-Colombia powder case disguised as a lens cap, to assist in model sessions.

Edmund
« Last Edit: December 10, 2010, 10:20:41 AM by eronald »
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David Watson

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Re: Pentax: "Amateur" product means more value, less dealer margins?
« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2010, 10:48:15 AM »

Also under embargo until 4/1

I can now advise that Hasselblad will be announcing a new cooperative venture with Sony and Garmin.  Utilising the latest version of Sony's domestic robot programmed with an advanced version of Garmin's GPS software and Phocus 4.1 it will no longer be necessary for photographers to attend photoshoots in person.  Simply programme in the coordinates of the shoot, number of photographs required, photographic content (portrait/wedding/architecture/glamour etc) and the credit card number of the client and press go.  The robot will arrive at the  location precisely on time, listen carefully to any instructions (contradictory or otherwise) of the Creative Director, make everyone a cup of coffee and get on with the shoot.  Small jpegs will be sent to the photographers iPhone (on the beach or where-ever) to enable fine detail and creative input to be made if necessary and check the focus on the eyes.

This new product is called the Hasselbot and is available from your local Hasselblad dealer once they have completed deliveries of the H4D/60, series 2 lenses, and had a long holiday.
 :)
 

yaya

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Re: Pentax: "Amateur" product means more value, less dealer margins?
« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2010, 11:07:30 AM »

Also under embargo until 4/1

I can now advise that Hasselblad will be announcing a new cooperative venture with Sony and Garmin.  Utilising the latest version of Sony's domestic robot programmed with an advanced version of Garmin's GPS software and Phocus 4.1 it will no longer be necessary for photographers to attend photoshoots in person.  Simply programme in the coordinates of the shoot, number of photographs required, photographic content (portrait/wedding/architecture/glamour etc) and the credit card number of the client and press go.  The robot will arrive at the  location precisely on time, listen carefully to any instructions (contradictory or otherwise) of the Creative Director, make everyone a cup of coffee and get on with the shoot.  Small jpegs will be sent to the photographers iPhone (on the beach or where-ever) to enable fine detail and creative input to be made if necessary and check the focus on the eyes.

This new product is called the Hasselbot and is available from your local Hasselblad dealer once they have completed deliveries of the H4D/60, series 2 lenses, and had a long holiday.
 :)
 

Is that the one that is rumoured to carry the much sought Hello Kitty logo on the side??

Have a good weekend everyone

/y

ndevlin

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Re: Pentax: "Amateur" product means more value, less dealer margins?
« Reply #33 on: December 10, 2010, 07:38:20 PM »

At the risk of saying something that might be construed as offensive the Hasselblad H camera is not in your words a POS!!!  I don't know where you are coming from but in the context of its MF competition it stands head and shoulders above anything else currently available including the Pentax and the Mamiya/Phase One.  /quote]

Not at all sure how you can say that. The ergonomics of the H series are far behind the Pentax. Yes, it's much better than the Phase DF, but that isn't saying much. It's also bested by the S2 on usability by some margin.

Maybe some people like poorly laid out cameras with small, dim LCDs.  I'm just not one of those people.

The H system can produces superb images, but the camera is long in the tooth. In terms of body design, the 645D is now, the DF and the H are yesterday. The up-and-coming generation of shooters will not tolerate these cameras. 

As for 14 vs 16 bit, that appears to be all hat, no cattle.  There is no magical extra information in the "16 bit" files that I can find.  Maybe if I paid an extra $10K they'd tell me the Caramilk secret to unlock all that image data  ;)

- N.
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ziocan

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Re: Pentax: "Amateur" product means more value, less dealer margins?
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2010, 01:05:37 AM »

Canon is developping monster sensors, they have the structures and the knowledge to do almost whatever game changing device. And more importantly, they listen to the clients needs. (well, except for MLU ;))
IMO.
Where are they going to get those lenses they need for the monster sensor?
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eronald

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Re: Pentax: "Amateur" product means more value, less dealer margins?
« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2010, 01:44:51 AM »

Where are they going to get those lenses they need for the monster sensor?

You don't need special lenses, it's called 8x10.

:)

Edmund
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David Watson

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Re: Pentax: "Amateur" product means more value, less dealer margins?
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2010, 02:47:06 PM »

At the risk of saying something that might be construed as offensive the Hasselblad H camera is not in your words a POS!!!  I don't know where you are coming from but in the context of its MF competition it stands head and shoulders above anything else currently available including the Pentax and the Mamiya/Phase One.  /quote]

Not at all sure how you can say that. The ergonomics of the H series are far behind the Pentax. Yes, it's much better than the Phase DF, but that isn't saying much. It's also bested by the S2 on usability by some margin.

Don't agree.  The Hasselblad is a modular system which enables easier sensor cleaning, waist level finders and so on. The Leica may be a great camera for some people but, like many others, I dislike the way the images look.  From an ergonomic point of view it depends whether you use a tripod or not - in my case its 90% of the time and the camera attaches to the tripod real easy using a RRS L Plate.

Maybe some people like poorly laid out cameras with small, dim LCDs.  I'm just not one of those people.

The H system can produces superb images, but the camera is long in the tooth. In terms of body design, the 645D is now, the DF and the H are yesterday. The up-and-coming generation of shooters will not tolerate these cameras. 

So is the M9 but a good lasting design is beneficial in terms of the heritage of older systems and bodies.  Who are the up and coming generation and many will tolerate these cameras once they understand the benefits available with these systems.

As for 14 vs 16 bit, that appears to be all hat, no cattle.  There is no magical extra information in the "16 bit" files that I can find.  Maybe if I paid an extra $10K they'd tell me the Caramilk secret to unlock all that image data  ;)

How hard did you look.  I have taken side by side images with a D3X and H3D-39 and please be assured that there is no contest in terms of smooth colour rendition and breadth of tonality.  The D3X is good but MFDB's are just better.

- N.

bcooter

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Re: Pentax: "Amateur" product means more value, less dealer margins?
« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2010, 03:51:13 PM »

L
3. Hassy is fine because they have such a strong hold on the pro market. For people who need what they offer, they are a compelling solution.  That said, I can't imagine ever using their gear in its present form because (i) the camera's still a POS; (ii) the lenses are insanely large and heavy; and (iii) Phocus is a Phucking nightmare to me. (Their lenses are no better or worse than any others in the MF market - just much bigger).



I don't have a dog in this hunt because I don't own a blad, probably will never own a pentax, but I can promise you if you made your living shooting serious work for serious money, the last thing you'd worry about is the weight of the lenses.

I've said it before, but more professional work is shot with a Hasselblad H camera than probably all the other medium format cameras combined.

Now, if pentax up's their game, offers tethering, rentals, has a workable and fast repair center, dealers that know the cameras inside and out, they may make a dent in this already small market, but unless that happens, they are just a "serious" (whatever that means) amateur camera.

IMO

BC
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BJL

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any evidence of larger Canon sensors?
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2010, 04:12:29 PM »

Canon is developping monster sensors ...
Have you seen any evidence at all for this, or are you just restating a speculation (or wish) that has been going around online forums for many years?

My prediction for many years (and true so far!) is that Canon and Nikon have less reason now to go larger than 36x24mm than they did in the film era (MF being a far smaller market now than then, most of it lost to current Canon and Nikon alternatives), and so since neither of them went beyond 36x24mm with film, neither will with digital.
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eronald

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Re: any evidence of larger Canon sensors?
« Reply #39 on: December 11, 2010, 04:40:20 PM »

BJL, yes Canon they have been announcing/showing samples of unusually large sensors. Here is a 20x20 cm link. Whether these will ever make it into products is a different issue.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/1008/10083101canonlargestsensor.asp

Edmund

Have you seen any evidence at all for this, or are you just restating a speculation (or wish) that has been going around online forums for many years?

My prediction for many years (and true so far!) is that Canon and Nikon have less reason now to go larger than 36x24mm than they did in the film era (MF being a far smaller market now than then, most of it lost to current Canon and Nikon alternatives), and so since neither of them went beyond 36x24mm with film, neither will with digital.
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