Struggling with the choice of DB or 645D

[natas]

Hey guys,

I am ready to jump to medium format. Right now my decision has come down to two different solutions (for my budget).

Leaf Aptus II-7
Mamiya AFD III
Mamiya 80mm f2.8 lens

or

Pentax 645D w/ 55 f2.8

On the used market I should be able to get some nice glass later as I build. However I really have no idea who makes the better glass of the two solutions above.

Here is my take so far.

The Pentax is a simple solution that works very much like my canon gear. It also has a slightly larger file size. I also like that this camera is weather sealed. One downfall I see with it is that you cannot shoot tethered. However I rarely do this now with my Canon gear. Another negative is the sensor size is smaller. Base ISO is 200 which I am not a big fan of, however I do like that it goes to 1600 and looks pretty decent.

The Aptus has a larger sensor so I get less of a crop factor. It does however look to be a pain to use at times. I do like that its base ISO is 50, but from what I have seen anything past iso400 is not the best. And lastly if I were to ever want to use a View Camera I could do so with this back.

I am not really searching for any answers here, just want to hear some opinions from others here.  BTW, As a profesional I shoot weddings, and portraits. I also sell occasional landscape prints. I do want to expand in the landscape area.

When it comes to file quality I really don't see a huge difference between the two. The Aptus samples I have seen appear to be slightly sharper, but not by a large amount. Dynamic range I am guessing is pretty close between the two.

[bradleygibson]

Sounds like both might meet your needs on paper.  I recommend spending a weekend with the gear--the subjective qualities--theway a particular camera works, the way it responds, the look of the files--these things may be the deciding factor and just don't show up on paper.

If you don't have access locally, I suggest taking a cheap flight to somewhere that does--as someone who as purchased a number of medium format systems in search of what would work for me, I can say there's no substitute for 'hands on'...

[David Watson]

Please also look at the Hasselblad H4D-31.  It is price competitive with both your choices and as a camera is streets ahead.  Hasselblad lenses are all first class and all have integral leaf shutters.  Furthermore the system includes True Focus and a really good tilt and shift adapter.

Check it out here:

http://www.hasselblad.co.uk/products/h-system/h4d-31.aspx

BTW The support from Hasselblad internationally is unbeatable.

[robert zimmerman]

Image Quality is almost impossible to compare without using both cameras for a while, the way you use them.
And the software end of the image quality is a big part of the equasion.
In the end, they'll both produce great files, but under what conditions would be the question to ask...
For a wedding photographer I would think handling, ergonomics, auto focus and high Iso, etc. would be more important than the ultimate image quality.
And that is something you have to experience.

A couple things about the Aptus:
You should be able to get a great deal on a Phaseone DF if you buy an Aptus II 7 new.
Then you'd have access to the Schneider leaf shutter lenses.
You can also use the Leaf on an RZ67 and on tech cameras.
And you have capture one software and leaf capture software for the leaf files.

This makes the Aptus II abaout the most open and versitile db/camera/software system available.

Food for thought...

[marcmccalmont]

I put together a Mamiya AFDII and Phase One P30 several years ago then sold the P30 and bought a used P45+
I also handled the Pentax the other week in Tokyo.
If it were me, I would go for the Pentax as it is a finished product the Phase/Mamiya has it's quirks, although I can sell and buy an upgrade DB to keep my Mamiya system current, every time you do this it costs about $10 to $15K, more than the cost of a Pentax body. Go for the Pentax!
Just my 2 cents
Marc

[natas]

Can I get the H4D-31 for 12k with a lens?

Truthfully I am not a huge fan of CaptureOne so the software option to me is irrelevant. I have been using Lightroom since 1.0 and I am now on version 3 and I love it. I have about 100K images in just one of my catalogs, I can't imagine trying to get rid of that and into CaptureOne. On top of that the last version of CaptureOne I tried did not render as well as Lightroom did (with the exception of skin tones).

BTW, I do not plan to use this camera as my main system for weddings. My thinking is to use the MF for Formals, and Bridal shots. My other uses will be studio portraits and landscape. I plan to keep my one of my 5d MKII's and a 7D for extra reach and use these for 90% of the wedding.

[nyschulte]

You could check out the Mamiya DM solutions.
I went for the Mamiya DM22 which is a Mamiya 645DF with 80mm/2.8 D lens and a DM22 back.
The DM22 is nothing else than an Aptus22

Capture One DB (now vers. 6) is free

Now i do not know the Aptus 7 but it seems to correspond to the DM33

I am a using LR since first beta too.
But now i use C1 tethered with the DM22, do my selections and most important moiré reduction and then process as DNG to be imported into LR 3.2.  There i follow my usual workflow.

After the first 1000 images i start to get used to the system
Doing 99.5% of studio sessions, photography being my hobby.

In preparation to the Mamiya DM22 i got an RZ67 Pro II with some nice glass used from KEH. Now i am waiting only for the adapter plate

And for a new Mac Pro in order to have sufficient processing power and storage...

Best light  for any way you go.

Nicolas

[David Watson]

Well you can probably argue about the price but B & H list an H4D-31 with an 80mm lens for $13,995 - way to go!

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=hasselblad+h+series&N=0&InitialSearch=yes

[BrendanStewart]

Well you can probably argue about the price but B & H list an H4D-31 with an 80mm lens for $13,995 - way to go!

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=hasselblad+h+series&N=0&InitialSearch=yes

I agree. I've been shooting wedding stuff with this and it's fantastic. You can import your fff files into lightroom too. Works well. Though i personally prefer to alter in Phocus.

Re: Pentax vs. Hasselblad:

1. Hasselblad has some of the best lenses in the business. And a full line of modern lenses all leaf shutter lenses...
2. Phocus extends the system and is made to take advantage of the hardware.
3. Faster sync speed in most lenses vs. Pentax where just some are leaf.
4. A full USA support network.
5. True Focus - Reliable  vs. outer focus points on pentax which are questionable by forum reports.
6. Upgrade paths and programs.
7. Rental Network.
8. HTS

I'm sure there are other things i'm missing...

[natas]

I really havent looked much at the hassy. Every lens I have seen has been really expensive. I dont mind shelling out 1-2k for a lens every once in a while but most of those lenses are well over that price. My most expensive lens to date is a canon 500mm, next in line would be my 16-35. Alll I really want with the medium format is a nice wide angle, a short portrait lens (80mm) and maybe something in the 120-200mm range. The pentad and even mamiya can provide that for a reasonable price.

Am I wrong to make this assumption? I would love to later get a nice leaf shutter lens but I need something to hold me over now.

[Jozef Zajaz]

Go with the mamiya and a phase back.

You'll get up to 1/1600s with leaf shutter lenses and 1/4000th shutter speed with the other lenses. Hassy only goes up to 1/800.

[David Watson]

You can buy good used Hasselblad lenses through the dealer network and Ebay for around $1800.  There are many of these lenses for sale from Ffordes or the Pro Centre in the UK for example.

As to having a shutter speed of 1/4000 - I cannot remember the time when I needed to use anything over 1/500 with a MF system at normal ISO's. 

Try the Hasselblad and then try the Mamiya - you won't have a problem choosing. 

[Jay101]

...I'm sure there are other things i'm missing...

Pentax flash sync is only 1/125, which is fairly slow.
Pentax does not have tethered facility yet (but signs are that this is on the Pentax road-map - based on a recent post @ Pentax Japan)
Pentax does not have a pro-grade software application (camera is but one component of a system, where Hasselblad and P1 have deep experience)
Pentax has one lens choice, and another on the way.  More to follow, but they need to give the market some clarity here (no pun intended)

On the other hand...

Hasselblad does not have the weather seals the Pentax has
Hasselblad does not have the LCD screen resolution the Pentax does. Never understood why my phone screen is better (battery management maybe?)
Hasselblad settings changed via frequent dives into menus, whereas Pentax has a few more dedicated buttons for a few faster settings changes

[yaya]

When it comes to file quality I really don't see a huge difference between the two. The Aptus samples I have seen appear to be slightly sharper, but not by a large amount. Dynamic range I am guessing is pretty close between the two.

I think that one can only judge and make conclusions by testing and looking at actual images shot with the two products in similar conditions, or as close to similar and possible, given any availability/ access issues.

With regards to handling, features and workflow, again you know better than all of us what works for you and the best way to know which system suits your needs is to try both

One thing definitely going for the Aptus is its proven record from several years of being used by thousands of professionals around the world. The same applies for the Mamiya Platform and this includes service and support.

Yair

[ndevlin]

It kind of depends on what you're shooting. If you are a full-time studio/commercial pro, you probably need a reliable tethering solution, which is something fairly deliberately not part of the Pentax paradigm at the moment. You will also likely prefer to have electronic LS lenses (the Pentax has LS lenses, but they have to be manually cocked each shot, as far as I know).

On the other hand, if you are an outdoor/landscape shooter, the 645D is a much more compelling buy for numerous reasons, including the weather sealing, battery life, screen quality, user interface, lens line-up, WEIGHT of the system, etc.

Moreover, as Yair and others have wisely said, you need to actually use both system and look at files you shot yourself to know. Anything less is empty talk.

- N.