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Author Topic: Adobe Color Printer Utility  (Read 66781 times)

Rhossydd

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Re: Adobe Color Printer Utility
« Reply #100 on: December 04, 2010, 01:15:52 pm »

Well the point is, the various app’s should behave the same way (in a prefect world).
Yes, assuming they're doing the same things.
BUT PS CS4, ACPU & Qimage are all printing untagged documents, InDesign can't do this as it as the document has to have a defined colourspace (in my test AdobeRGB), so this might cause some issues through the path.
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Doyle Yoder

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Re: Adobe Color Printer Utility
« Reply #101 on: December 04, 2010, 01:23:35 pm »

InDesign can't do this as it as the document has to have a defined colourspace (in my test AdobeRGB), so this might cause some issues through the path.

You are dead wrong. Selecting under Edit/Color Settings "Emulate Indesign 2.0 CMS Off" turns off color management in InDesign.
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Rhossydd

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Re: Adobe Color Printer Utility
« Reply #102 on: December 04, 2010, 01:31:53 pm »

You are dead wrong. Selecting under Edit/Color Settings "Emulate Indesign 2.0 CMS Off" turns off color management in InDesign.
Ah right, that's well buried and unintuitive then.
Huff, another thing to measure tomorrow then.

I still don't see why anyone would try printing targets from InDesign though.
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Doyle Yoder

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Re: Adobe Color Printer Utility
« Reply #103 on: December 04, 2010, 01:36:39 pm »

Ah right, that's well buried and unintuitive then.

I still don't see why anyone would try printing targets from InDesign though.

On the Mac since ID uses the old printing path it has been a lifesaver for printing targets when all you had were drivers that were not written properly for Apple's new printing path. And by the way 90% of what I print is from ID, so it just makes more sense to print profile targets through the same path.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2010, 01:39:23 pm by Doyle Yoder »
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Rhossydd

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Re: Adobe Color Printer Utility
« Reply #104 on: December 04, 2010, 01:44:55 pm »

On the Mac since ID uses the old printing path it has been a lifesaver for printing targets when all you had were drivers that were not written properly for Apple's new printing path.
Don't you just love that whole Mac experience ;-)
and yes I do own a Mac too.
Quote
And by the way 90% of what I print is from ID, so it just makes more sense to print profile targets through the same path.
In nearly eight years of running a profiling business and thousands of targets, not one set has been printed through ID here. You usage is very exceptional.
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digitaldog

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Re: Adobe Color Printer Utility
« Reply #105 on: December 04, 2010, 02:18:57 pm »

On the Mac since ID uses the old printing path it has been a lifesaver for printing targets when all you had were drivers that were not written properly for Apple's new printing path. And by the way 90% of what I print is from ID, so it just makes more sense to print profile targets through the same path.

The bottom line here is that I kind of expect that ID, CS, etc at the very least, all Adobe app’s would print the same (don’t they under Windows)? This isn’t about blaming either Apple or Adobe although I suspect the differences in the print paths is more due to Apple. And maybe this is why I’m seeing high max dE’s on the targets differ from app to app. I know its hardly a prefect color managed world, but I’d sure like to know what app I should use to print a target and more importantly, if I use that profile in 5 app’s, they all behave the same.
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Doyle Yoder

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Re: Adobe Color Printer Utility
« Reply #106 on: December 04, 2010, 02:49:28 pm »

Don't you just love that whole Mac experience ;-)
and yes I do own a Mac too.In nearly eight years of running a profiling business and thousands of targets, not one set has been printed through ID here. You usage is very exceptional.

If it is a artwork or a photo that benefits from 16-bit printing then I will usually use the Canon plugin, or I will print a whole sheets of proofs from a Photoshoot using LR. But the majority of my printing is banners, posters, signage, brochure, flyers, etc. which goes to one of the driver driven aqueous inkjets, or RIP driven, solvent, UV-curable, digital printer/copiers, or offset press. The repeatable printing of photos in various sizes and media is just some much easier to do from ID where all sizes, gangs, print setting etc. can be saved with out take the huge amount of space printing from PS or the time to reset these.

Enough of that though, now lets get back to the main subject of this thread.
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MHMG

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Re: Adobe Color Printer Utility
« Reply #107 on: December 04, 2010, 04:08:35 pm »

Don't you just love that whole Mac experience ;-)
and yes I do own a Mac too.In nearly eight years of running a profiling business and thousands of targets, not one set has been printed through ID here. You usage is very exceptional.

Well, add me to the exceptional group that is now printing from ID. Photoshop used to be the one bulletproof app I could print from and get CM to work right on all my computers. Since I mainly print for myself, I didn't need the file nesting capabilities of a more advanced RIP.  I had always assumed PS worked right because the PS software team had successfully "hijacked" the CMM and print path away from OS's that didn't seem to handle ICC profiles correctly. But things started to get very strange when Apple introduced OS10.6 and it's "New" print path. Since I have both older and newer Macs (not all able to run 10.6) and older and newer printers (some with updated drivers and some at the end of the road in terms of vendor's support), I'm now finding I can't build compatible ICC profiles to print to the same printer/ink/paper combination from more than one computer in my studio. That's unacceptable, and ID was the only way I could find as a work around to get me back to a shared set of ICC profiles. But my tests that showed PSCS5 printing problems were run last summer, so it's time for me to revisit the issue as at least one update has now occurred to OS10.6.  

Bottom line is that at the very least, the null transform method of target printing should produce matching prints from any app!  If it doesn't then the profile build will be app specific. I'm encouraged by what everyone is reporting in the tests that are being run here. Maybe it's not a complete mess, but pretty pathetic that we even have to be doing this intensive cross-application testing at this point in time.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2010, 04:10:24 pm by MHMG »
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Doyle Yoder

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Re: Adobe Color Printer Utility
« Reply #108 on: December 04, 2010, 04:25:18 pm »

But things started to get very strange when Apple introduced OS10.6 and it's "New" print path. Since I have both older and newer Macs (not all able to run 10.6) and older and newer printers (some with updated drivers and some at the end of the road in terms of vendor's support),

Apple taking the controls away from the printer driver when applications manages color is chosen always seemed like they were trying to idiot proof it to me.

I wonder what they are going to do when they start making better idiots.

We had to learn to choose the right settings years ago, what is so hard about that?
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Adobe Color Printer Utility
« Reply #109 on: December 05, 2010, 05:59:02 am »

OK so here are some numbers from measuring targets printed from PS CS4, ACPU, ID & Qimage on a Windows 7 64 bit system

CS4 - InDesign CS4
(Document in AdobeRGB, placed untagged target at same size)
Average delta: 0.43
Standard deviation (dE): 0.24

CS4 - Qimage
Average delta: 0.35
Standard deviation (dE): 0.19



Thank you, that's what covers my workflow if I need to make profiles outside the HP Z printers.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

New: Spectral plots of +175 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
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Rhossydd

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Re: Adobe Color Printer Utility
« Reply #110 on: December 05, 2010, 11:47:04 am »

Thank you, that's what covers my workflow

Just to add to that, at Mr Rodney's request I've now reprinted with an untagged ID document (Now Doyle has shown the way to achieve it)
I'm seeing
CS4 - ID untagged document
average dE 0.47
standard deviation 0.27
Max dE 1.42
Worst 10% 1.04

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digitaldog

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Re: Adobe Color Printer Utility
« Reply #111 on: December 06, 2010, 12:11:01 pm »

When I measure the TC918 from ACPU (two printed in a row and wet) I get a max dE of 0.70.

Here’s the full report as of today (plenty of time for dry down):

Overall - (930 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.20
    Max dE:   0.72

    Min dE:   0.01
 StdDev dE:   0.11

Best 90% - (836 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.17
    Max dE:   0.34
    Min dE:   0.01
 StdDev dE:   0.08

Worst 10% - (94 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.42
    Max dE:   0.72
    Min dE:   0.34
 StdDev dE:   0.08

--------------------------------------------------
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Roy

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Summary please
« Reply #112 on: December 06, 2010, 03:33:42 pm »

Help! Interesting discussion and thanks to everyone for all the effort but with six pages of posts and lots of numbers, I'm lost!

Could someone summarize this please?

Which of these agree: ID, PSCS4, PSCS5, ACPU?

And, do they agree with printing targets straight from calibration software? I gave up on the whole mess when I couldn't get the PSCS5 workaround to give consistent results on a Mac and resorted to printing targets from Eye-One Match 3.6.3, which worked wonderfully.

Thanks.
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Roy

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Re: Adobe Color Printer Utility
« Reply #113 on: December 06, 2010, 05:03:28 pm »

FWIW, one of my colleagues ran ACPU under 10.6.5 on Epson Premium Luster 260 from an Epson Stylus Pro 9900 using our Barbieri SpectroLFP and compared it in ColorThink to the Epson canned profile.  It was uniformly larger in gamut then the canned profile and print results were excellent.  We haven't been able to achieve such results even using the null target method (although they weren't bad).

I'd like to reproduce the tests that you've all been doing, but I doubt we're going to have the time.  If that changes, I'll post some numbers.

So far, though, we've also not had any problem with output size/scaling issues - so I'm not sure exactly what problem Andrew (and others?) is seeing there.
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Phil Brown

Doyle Yoder

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Re: Adobe Color Printer Utility
« Reply #114 on: December 06, 2010, 05:58:34 pm »

I was thinking today about the issue with setting No Color Management in the CS4 print dialog with drivers that were not properly written for 10.5 and 10.6 and did not turn off CM.

Has anyone testing the ACPU with these same drivers and find that CM is not being turned off? Canon of course with it special casing file if listing ACPU would not apply here, but what about the Epson and HP drivers?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2010, 06:02:19 pm by Doyle Yoder »
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digitaldog

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Re: Adobe Color Printer Utility
« Reply #115 on: December 06, 2010, 07:01:58 pm »

So far, though, we've also not had any problem with output size/scaling issues - so I'm not sure exactly what problem Andrew (and others?) is seeing there.

Actually I had no problems with “scaling“ when I used the TC918 and similar targets using the resolution native of those targets. But I read on the ColorSync list that “Scaling” issues manifested depending on the resolution (see the post below from David Tobie I pasted #67). I sized the TC918 from 40 pixels per centimeter to 120 PPC using nearest neighbor and the target shifted position on the page (so its not scaling I saw but a severe reposition of the data on the page).
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digitaldog

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Re: Adobe Color Printer Utility
« Reply #116 on: December 06, 2010, 07:07:14 pm »

Just to add to that, at Mr Rodney's request I've now reprinted with an untagged ID document (Now Doyle has shown the way to achieve it)
I'm seeing
CS4 - ID untagged document
average dE 0.47
standard deviation 0.27
Max dE 1.42
Worst 10% 1.04

Max dE of 1.43, high IMHO (a bit higher than I got).

ID5 vs. CS4 on my end (didn’t provide that in the matrix):

Delta-E Formula dE2000

Overall - (930 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.27
    Max dE:   1.11

    Min dE:   0.03
 StdDev dE:   0.16

Best 90% - (836 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.23
    Max dE:   0.47
    Min dE:   0.03
 StdDev dE:   0.10

Worst 10% - (94 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.63
    Max dE:   1.11
    Min dE:   0.47
 StdDev dE:   0.14

--------------------------------------------------

So yes, we are both getting higher max dE values than I’d like and using either CS5 or CS4, compared to ID5.
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Rhossydd

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Re: Adobe Color Printer Utility
« Reply #117 on: December 07, 2010, 03:58:52 am »

Just a reminder that the results I've posted are for InDesign CS4 not 5
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Richard Man

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Re: Adobe Color Printer Utility
« Reply #118 on: December 07, 2010, 06:40:30 am »

I am using Win7, PS CS1 (!) and trial mode CS5. The reason I haven't upgraded PS in ages is because I mainly use Lr2.x and now LR3.x, but I need PS to do digital negatives.

As I am using Win7, at least I do not suffer from the Snow Leopard / Epson issues.

However, I did print a digital negative calibration chart out on the same sheet of film and so they are processed the same way:

- ACPU
- CS5, with Adobe RGB ->Adobe RGB null transform
- CS1, print with "Same as Source" and "Application Manages Colors" (no color management)

This is on a HP Z3100. I scan results with an Epson Expression 1000XL so it's not as accurate as a densitometer. However, the results are clear:

- ACPU scales the output. This is consistent for letter size and my pano size of 8.5x22". May be it is a bad interaction with HP driver. I do not know, but the behavior is again consistent.

- CS5 with null transform and CS1 with no color management produces output that are virtually the same. Any measurable differences are probably due to the digital negative->contact print->scan workflow.

- ACPU output is VASTLY different from the other two.

My conclusion is that ACPU is a piece of junk. In addition to who knows what it's printing, it:
- has a lousy UI
- scales your images
- doesn't even have the courtesy to remember the last folder
- open TIFF only

Someone is asleep at the wheel in Adobe.

// richard
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Farmer

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Re: Adobe Color Printer Utility
« Reply #119 on: December 07, 2010, 07:24:46 pm »

Why would you want it to open anything other than TIFF?

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