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Author Topic: Adobe Color Printer Utility  (Read 66778 times)

Doyle Yoder

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Re: Adobe Color Printer Utility
« Reply #60 on: December 03, 2010, 04:07:54 pm »

What printer and driver? Its absolutely resizing on this end going to an Epson 3880, v6.60 on 10.6.5. Others have reported the sizing differences too but that doesn’t seem to negatively affect the ability to read the targets.

Are you seeing a size difference with your Canon because I am not with mine. I set the page size to 12 x 24 landscape in ID, PS and ACPU and all three printed the same size on exact same area of the paper.
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probep

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Re: Adobe Color Printer Utility
« Reply #61 on: December 03, 2010, 04:25:33 pm »

Is this still, should it be, in beta ?

I've just downloaded and tried it out and it's not really working correctly.

The images are getting resized which isn't very helpful.
My original target image is 263mm x 173mm(untagged, 8bit TIFF, 1050x692 pixels @101dpi) and it can be correctly printed out via PS CS4.
Using ACPU I get a different size I get 253mm x 166mm with all my printers(Epson 3800/1800/OkiB4100).

Not exactly the slick interface we've come to expect from Adobe either, especially considering how long we've waited for this.

Paul
Using Windows 7 64 bit, all fully patched and running the latest drivers.
I have the same issue on Windows XP SP3 and Canon PIXMA Pro9500. Moreover paper margin settings in the utility do not work for my Canon. Targets are printed on the top left corner of a paper. Very uncomfortable for measuring targers using an i1Pro.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2010, 04:30:57 pm by probep »
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digitaldog

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Re: Adobe Color Printer Utility
« Reply #62 on: December 03, 2010, 04:29:53 pm »

Are you seeing a size difference with your Canon because I am not with mine. I set the page size to 12 x 24 landscape in ID, PS and ACPU and all three printed the same size on exact same area of the paper.

To the iPF6300 I do see a difference in size but its tiny. The black bar for the iSis is 180mm vs. 179mm (I’ve asked my wife to verify). What is much different is how the target is printing centered on the page. ACPU is shifting far more than the small differences in the scale (which probably explains why I’ve had no measurement issues).
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Rhossydd

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Re: Adobe Color Printer Utility
« Reply #63 on: December 03, 2010, 04:41:32 pm »

That’s why having some Windows users do the same testing from the same app’s would be real useful.
I'd like to help, but haven't bothered to upgrade to CS5 for either application after trying the trials.

What's important about the resizing issue is that when a customer sends a set of targets that aren't the correct size it's the most obvious indication they haven't bothered to read the instructions for printing profiling targets properly or aren't taking enough care to avoid mistakes. In other words they're likely to become a support burden.
So those of us that hoped this utility would provide a useful and reliable tool for our customers may be disappointed.

The second issue is that if the print outs aren't consistent from system to system (Eric says his prints are correct, others are seeing different behaviour) what else may be going wrong too ?

Frankly this is all very disappointing. The package looks like it's been knocked out fast to hit a late deadline and without sufficient care or testing.
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digitaldog

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Re: Adobe Color Printer Utility
« Reply #64 on: December 03, 2010, 04:47:01 pm »

I'd like to help, but haven't bothered to upgrade to CS5 for either application after trying the trials.

Actually its CS4 vs. the new utility I’m more interested in. CS5 and ACPU correlate well.

Quote
Frankly this is all very disappointing. The package looks like it's been knocked out fast to hit a late deadline and without sufficient care or testing.

Lets put this into perspective. If anyone should be producing such a utility its DataColor and X-Rite. They are the ones who ask us to print targets this way. Adobe spent the time and money to produce a utility for a tiny group of users. They removed NCM from Print to simplify the app for a much larger user base who have zero need for this functionality. The utility works on this end, I can measure targets. I would suggest that Adobe ask a few of us willing and able beta testers to help them out next time but in this case, there appears to be nothing so broken we can’t use the product as is.
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Rhossydd

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Re: Adobe Color Printer Utility
« Reply #65 on: December 03, 2010, 05:37:05 pm »

Actually its CS4 vs. the new utility I’m more interested in.
I've already printed those out and will measure and compare them tomorrow when the prints are fully dry.
Quote
Lets put this into perspective. If anyone should be producing such a utility its DataColor and X-Rite. They are the ones who ask us to print targets this way. Adobe spent the time and money to produce a utility for a tiny group of users. They removed NCM from Print to simplify the app for a much larger user base who have zero need for this functionality. The utility works on this end, I can measure targets. I would suggest that Adobe ask a few of us willing and able beta testers to help them out next time but in this case, there appears to be nothing so broken we can’t use the product as is.
I take your point, but from what I can see there was no real need to remove the NCM option from PS. Certainly it was no problem for Windows users.
It just seems to have been removed in a clumsy attempt to get round the CMS mess brewing with Macs. The end result has just caused confusion and difficulty for a significant set of PS users.
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digitaldog

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Re: Adobe Color Printer Utility
« Reply #66 on: December 03, 2010, 05:46:06 pm »

I take your point, but from what I can see there was no real need to remove the NCM option from PS. Certainly it was no problem for Windows users.

If you think Adobe will get heat about this utility, just imagine if they had NCM in Windows but not Mac. Its really not that necessary either. Like I suggested, for but a small group printing untagged targets, what’s the need? The color management companies are the ones who should have engineered a way to print them.
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digitaldog

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Re: Adobe Color Printer Utility
« Reply #67 on: December 03, 2010, 06:23:30 pm »

Eric and others, in terms of the scaling of targets, on the ColorSync list, David Tobie wrote:

Quote
On Dec 3, 2010, at 3:19 PM, C D Tobie wrote:
Depends on the resolution of the file. With a large file, the scaling issue is... quite large.

My reply:

As I said, the letter sized TC918 is 101.6 (40 pixels per centimeter). Using Nearest Neighbor I sampled to 120 PPC and printed with the ACPU utility. The scaling is identical, the black bar for the iSis is 180mm in size. But what IS different is how the target is placed on the page. At 40PPC its nearly centered, at 120PPC its shifted quite a bit to the left side to the point that the black arrows the iSis needs to read is cut off. So it appears the bug is related to the actual resolution of the document as David indicates but its more an image shifting issue than a scaling issue.

There does seem to be a bug here not in terms of scaling but positioning.
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JimGoshorn

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Re: Adobe Color Printer Utility
« Reply #68 on: December 03, 2010, 08:01:42 pm »

Lets put this into perspective. If anyone should be producing such a utility its DataColor and X-Rite. They are the ones who ask us to print targets this way. Adobe spent the time and money to produce a utility for a tiny group of users.

That makes the most sense. It really shouldn't be Adobe's responsibility to provide a utility to print targets.

Maybe if the testers for i1Profiler bring the issue up to X-Rite, they might be able to include that functionality. :)

Jim
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Doyle Yoder

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Re: Adobe Color Printer Utility
« Reply #69 on: December 03, 2010, 08:23:13 pm »

Andrew

Could you reply to this. If the haven't updated the AppColorMatchingInfo.xml file to add the ACPU, then what settings are you getting under "Color Matching" and then under Main/Color Mode in the iPF6300 driver? If you are getting ColorSync and then Color but the target seems normal then it looks like ACPU is assigning a profile.

I am assuming you updated the AppColorMatchingInfo.xml file to add the ACPU so that it defaults to No Color Correction?

Why do I have to do this (and how?). I can still set it manually right (that’s what I did in the driver)?

Are you telling me that with the Canon iPF6300 drivers that when choosing application manages color when printing with apps that use Apple's new printing path that under Color Matching in the driver you can choose "Vendor Matching", and it is not grayed out and defaults to "ColorSync". If you can choose "Vendor Matching" then under Main/Color Mode you should be able to choose "No Color Correction" or "Color". Obviously with the old printing path printing from ID this is the behavior, but I have never ever heard of this being possible with the new printing path when printing with application manages color or as in the case of PSCS4 with No Color Management selected or with ACPU.

If that is the case then Canon has taken a radical change with their iPFx300 drivers as the iPFx000 and x100 drivers need to the have the applications that use the new print path listed in the AppColorMatchingInfo.xml file for the driver to turn off CM when printing with application manages color. I don't believe this to be that case because those with the iPFx000 and x100 printer they can install the iPFx300 drivers which will update the AppColorMatchingInfo.xml file. The AppColorMatchingInfo.xml file from the iPFx300 drivers includes PSCS5 and LR3 which is not in the AppColorMatchingInfo.xml file from the iPFx000 and x100 drivers. But the AppColorMatchingInfo.xml file from the iPFx300 drivers does not include LR3.3RC or ACPU which will cause the driver to default to ColorSync and in the Main/Color Mode to Color which will result in double profiling.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2010, 08:27:20 pm by Doyle Yoder »
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Doyle Yoder

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Re: Adobe Color Printer Utility
« Reply #70 on: December 03, 2010, 08:59:03 pm »

Ok I did at test on my iPF9000 by putting the previous AppColorMatchingInfo.xml that does not list the ACPU back in and printed the same target as two days ago. This time when I printed, the print dialog under Main/Color Mode defaulted to Color, and the driver/os did a color conversion. The print was way, way off from from the ones two days ago. That at least confirms that the ACPU is not assigning a sRGB to get around the drivers that can not turned off CM.

So to print a proper untagged print from ACPU to a Canon IPF printer it must have the internal executable file name of the Adobe Color Printer Utility listed in the AppColorMatchingInfo.xml file. Refer to this post on how to install the updated AppColorMatchingInfo.xml file that includes the Adobe Color Printer Utility.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=49207.0

« Last Edit: December 03, 2010, 09:00:44 pm by Doyle Yoder »
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digitaldog

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Re: Adobe Color Printer Utility
« Reply #71 on: December 03, 2010, 10:21:28 pm »


Could you reply to this. If the haven't updated the AppColorMatchingInfo.xml file to add the ACPU, then what settings are you getting under "Color Matching" and then under Main/Color Mode in the iPF6300 driver?

Like in Photoshop, the options are grayed out but the gray radio button is set to ColorSync. FWIW, that’s also what I see for the Epson (in Photoshop and in the ACPU).
Quote
Refer to this post on how to install the updated AppColorMatchingInfo.xml file that includes the Adobe Color Printer Utility.

Will do.
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digitaldog

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Re: Adobe Color Printer Utility
« Reply #72 on: December 03, 2010, 10:24:55 pm »

Are you telling me that with the Canon iPF6300 drivers that when choosing application manages color when printing with apps that use Apple's new printing path that under Color Matching in the driver you can choose "Vendor Matching", and it is not grayed out and defaults to "ColorSync".

In CS5, its not grayed out, I could select either ColorSync or Vendor Matching. In ACPU, I have no choice. For the Epson driver in either app, I have no choice.
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Doyle Yoder

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Re: Adobe Color Printer Utility
« Reply #73 on: December 03, 2010, 10:29:01 pm »

Like in Photoshop, the options are grayed out but the gray radio button is set to ColorSync. FWIW, that’s also what I see for the Epson (in Photoshop and in the ACPU).
Will do.

It is not the ColorSync button that is the problem, it is what the Main/Color Mode setting is. If it defaults to "No Color Correction" them no color management is performed by the driver/os. If it defaults to Color then color management is performed by the driver/os.
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Doyle Yoder

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Re: Adobe Color Printer Utility
« Reply #74 on: December 03, 2010, 10:44:59 pm »

In CS5, its not grayed out, I could select either ColorSync or Vendor Matching.  

Are you sure you don't have Printer Manages Color selected?

You just said it was grayed out in the post before.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2010, 10:46:35 pm by Doyle Yoder »
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Doyle Yoder

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Re: Adobe Color Printer Utility
« Reply #75 on: December 03, 2010, 10:49:21 pm »

In ACPU, I have no choice. For the Epson driver in either app, I have no choice.

But what is the Main/Color Mode setting in the Canon driver with ACPU?
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Rhossydd

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Re: Adobe Color Printer Utility
« Reply #76 on: December 04, 2010, 05:52:09 am »

OK so here are some numbers from measuring targets printed from PS CS4, ACPU, ID & Qimage on a Windows 7 64 bit system

Looking at the figures there is no significance colour difference between all four program's output(just ACPU resizing the targets). Any differences could be down to measurement and printer accuracy.

Methodology
Target TC2.83 RGB i1 printed twice from CS4 & ACPU, each print out measured twice.
Printing on Epson 3800 on Jessops gloss paper, Windows 7 64bit.
dE2000 measurements with Eye-One Pro revB in strip mode with PMP 5.0.10

Measurement accuracy, comparing two passes of same target;
Average delta: 0.14
Standard deviation (dE): 0.12

Average delta: 0.12
Standard deviation (dE): 0.10

Average delta: 0.13
Standard deviation (dE): 0.08

Average delta: 0.14
Standard deviation (dE): 0.11

Accuracy of print to print accuracy from same application;
Average delta: 0.36
Standard deviation (dE): 0.24

Average delta: 0.37
Standard deviation (dE): 0.24

Average delta: 0.25
Standard deviation (dE): 0.15

Average delta: 0.22
Standard deviation (dE): 0.15

CS4 - ACPU
Average delta: 0.53
Standard deviation (dE): 0.26

Average delta: 0.29
Standard deviation (dE): 0.18

Average delta: 0.43
Standard deviation (dE): 0.24

Average delta: 0.38
Standard deviation (dE): 0.23


CS4 - InDesign CS4
(Document in AdobeRGB, placed untagged target at same size)
Average delta: 0.43
Standard deviation (dE): 0.24

CS4 - Qimage
Average delta: 0.35
Standard deviation (dE): 0.19

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FrankPinkston

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Re: Adobe Color Printer Utility
« Reply #77 on: December 04, 2010, 09:56:05 am »

I have been following this thread with interest. Most of this discussion has been from Apple users. Is the ACPU working correctly in Windoze 7 64 bit? I have a new Epson 3880 and have not ordered custom profiles yet - waiting on this situation to resolve.

Thanks

Frank
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madmanchan

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Re: Adobe Color Printer Utility
« Reply #78 on: December 04, 2010, 11:21:14 am »

Well I can’t say I necessarily agree here that a max dE of 1.4 is within measurement error or acceptable but I’m willing to listen otherwise.

I consider this acceptable for the purposes of assessing whether CS4, CS5, and ACPU are all producing the same results. This is because if I print the same page twice from the same app (i.e., 2 copies from the same app), I get the same measurement results. In other words, the difference between printing a target from CS4 (+workaround) and ACPU in my config is no greater than the difference between the target twice from CS4.

The high max DE2000 of 1.4 may be due to instrument repeatability or printer repeatibility.
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Eric Chan

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Re: Adobe Color Printer Utility
« Reply #79 on: December 04, 2010, 11:25:23 am »

What printer and driver? Its absolutely resizing on this end going to an Epson 3880, v6.60 on 10.6.5. Others have reported the sizing differences too but that doesn’t seem to negatively affect the ability to read the targets.

As I mentioned previously: 3880, v6.60, 10.6.4. In principle, the only difference between your setup & mine is the OS version (I'm on 10.6.4, and you're on 10.6.5). I doubt that's relevant.

The real distinction is likely the target and its resolution (in pixels/inch).

I was using Bill Atkinson's 1728 target in my test.
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Eric Chan
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