Please help pro's vs con's Mamiya 645afdII/zd22 vs H1/aptus 17

[dizzyg44]

I have an opportunity to purchase 1 of 2 systems, both like new demos never sold.

Hassie H1 kit, 16-32 back, Leaf Aptus 17

or

Mamiya 645AFDII kit, plus 105 3.5 lens, ZD22 back

I ask for your input as both are good deals for the price I'm offered but I have no way to try them out in person.  We have no camera stores here that carry anything within a 7hr drive.  It's hard to find good detailed information on these systems.

Most of my assumptions are based of research, not hands so....

I like the H1 combo for the leaf shutter, 16bit on the back and touch screen.  Not a fan of the smaller sensor, price of lenses in the future, possible lack of support should the back go awry. battery under back.  Lots of reports of quirkyness and lockups.

Mamiya, lower price for this combo, faster shutter speeds but only 1/125th sync.  Newer back that whose company seems to be doing ok, larger sensor, dual media, cheaper lens (still quality) though.

Camera wise, important to me is larger/brighter VF, faster/more accurate AF (horrible eyesight), fast sync speed.  Back wise, I'd prefer the lower native ISO, larger sensor if money would allow but not critical.

I prefer to shoot people, primarily studio but do location and other randomness.  I currently use Nikon D700 and Hassie 500C/M which I've been shooting more than digi lately.

I would appreciate others first hand accts with these rigs since I can't put my hands on them.  These are on the low end of MF digi to most but is a big buy for me....

[UlfKrentz]

We do work with H1 and H2 and Leaf Aptus backs for some years now. We are using this combos tethered, no problems so far. Very reliable professional workflow. Nice skin colors. The backs never gave us any trouble, we experienced a good Hasselblad service, which we usually need after about 50.000 clicks. I consider this as normal. Why do you assume you don´t get support?
With a base ISO of 25 you probably won´t be in need of a faster shutter speed than 1/800s. The leaf shutter with the fast flash sync speeds is a big advantage, especially outdoors. But you should be aware of the moire that backs with 17 or 22MP will produce when shooting clothes. What we like about the H is the overall handling and the instant shutter release when you press the button. I don´t have any experience with the ZD, but AFAIK Mamiya discontinued their own DBs and sells Mamiya branded Leaf Backs now. Correct me if I´m wrong. We never regretted the choice we made, (I would look out for a combination of H with an Aptus75S) but you still should feel advised to do a hands on test before you buy this kind of equipment, even if it should be more than a 7hrs drive.

Cheers, Ulf

[dizzyg44]

Thanks, would love to hear others experiences....

as far as support, I meant in regards to the old leaf backs.  Of course hasselblad well support you in any way possible for an amount  Sorry if I wasn't clear on on that.

argh, just received another offer for a great deal on another AFDIIkit/Aptus22 ....tough choices...

[UlfKrentz]

I also meant the leaf support. I think you would get some support from leaf, like a calibration or a change of a scratched IR glass (Yair?). From what we experienced no reason to worry. You would have have to decide wether it would be worth the price on such an old back, though.

Different story with Hasselblad, they are the ones that closed their H-system to make people buy their backs. There was some rumour about the future service in the beginning but it is OK for us now. They still don´t let us buy their HCD lenses, I wonder if they are that bad that they need the digital correction 

Cheers, Ulf

[Steve Hendrix]

Thanks, would love to hear others experiences....

as far as support, I meant in regards to the old leaf backs.  Of course hasselblad well support you in any way possible for an amount  Sorry if I wasn't clear on on that.

argh, just received another offer for a great deal on another AFDIIkit/Aptus22 ....tough choices...

Also in favor of Leaf, Capture One Pro support for tethered shooting.


Steve Hendrix

[ndevlin]

Hey,

The Hassy system is better in almost every respect. And I say that as none too much of a fan.  As between them, that's the way to go.

But....both systems are really, really obsolete, so you had better be getting an amazing deal. I can think of very few reasons to buy into such antiquated technology over, say a D3x. Frankly, unless it's under $5K US all-in, neither are worth buying.

Just my 2c.

- N.

[Doug Peterson]

But....both systems are really, really obsolete, so you had better be getting an amazing deal. I can think of very few reasons to buy into such antiquated technology over, say a D3x. Frankly, unless it's under $5K US all-in, neither are worth buying.

Have you used an Aptus 17 before?

No one would say it will match for instance an Aptus II-8. But almost everyone that I've worked with to test/evaluate an older back (Leaf or Phase - where I have experience) is shocked to find out how well these older backs hold up against or significantly out perform even the best modern dSLR when it comes to image quality.

Though I agree certainly that there is some price point at which this would not be a good deal. As with any camera (or any widget). But at the right price and with the right post-sales support this can be a tremendously useful back (depending on the OPs

Having used both systems I strongly vote for the Aptus.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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[yaya]

You mentioned that you shoot people in the studio. For this the Aptus 17/22 IMO are 2 of the best backs. They're fast and consistent when shooting tethered with great colour and sharpness. Fully supported by Leaf Capture and Capture One PRO. Service is provided through any Leaf dealer.

One of the best Fashion Schools in the world, the London College of Fashion have got several Aptus 17s that they use in the photography department (on Hassy V cameras)

Regarding the choice of bodies. I would not make a decision without at least seeing them in real and holding them in my hands. I've personally been using Mamiya since the 1st AFD and have always liked the system. There are lots of good, cheap lenses for it and you can also use your 500C/M lenses with an adapter
I also believe that service in the lnog run will be cheaper than on the H1 but like I said they are very different animals and I stongly advise to try them first

A 7 hrs drive is just a 7hrs drive. If you find a nice route on the way back you might have your first series of location shots in your hand when you get home:-)

[Frank Doorhof]

Afd/II with aptus22 sounds for me the way to go.
Both are good cameras but realize that if you want to upgrade you can't with the Hasselblad because their system is closed since the h3.

With the Mamiya you can use the rz67proII which is a great studio camera, or the phase one DF which also has leaf shutter lenses and syncs up to 1/1600 with the newer backs.

Future wise I would therefor opt for the afdII with the aptus22.
I've used the aptus22 for some years and it's a sweet back.

[bcooter]

To me the most telling phrase is this is a big purchase for you, so my suggestion is be careful and think long and hard.

Since these are both demos, ask if there is a warranty.  A demo doesn't mean they're perfect, it just means not sold.

Saving a few grand means nothing if you end up with a back that needs $3,000 in repairs, or turns into a paper weight.

Also take this you can't upgrade a Hasselblad camera (regardless of backs) with a very tiny grain of salt. 

H1's, H2's are falling out of the trees for sale and in rentals and other than some DAC corrections and the 28mm lens, if you go to a non blad back on an H1/h2 it will do the same as any other medium format camera, actually more as it has a removable finder, leaf shutter lenses across the range.

There are probably more professional medium format images shot on an H series than all other camera makes combined.

If you upgrade the phase/Mamiya body it requires a brand new body like the DF to use the new leaf shutter lenses, so there isn't a lot of savings there.

Also I strongly suggest before purchasing, call a dealer for each of the brands your looking at and get quotes for repairs.

Phase has a $2,000 minimum (or something like that) for any repair and I think if something goes out on a Leaf they replace the electronic box, so get a price on that.

In regards to the Mamiya back it wasn't ready when it came out and few people sold theirs to upgrade, they sold them to get away from the problems.

I would really take a look around the marketplace, call some reputable dealers, preferably those that have competing brands, like Samy's in LA.  (Call Karen in the pro dept.).

Or any brand specific dealer like capture integration and get the real cost, real numbers, real availability of what is out there.

Right now there are Hasselblad refurbished 39mpx camera kits at around 10k which may be past your budget but they are backed by a warranty and probably will last you a lifetime.

On this board there are two H series with Phase backs for around 6k and though I don't know the condition, I know my two phase backs have never gone in for any service and I use Contax which may be out of production, but works as well today as it did when it was new.

In fact I have 4 bodies, double lenses, 6 prisms, etc. etc. and very few times have ever gone to a backup and it was never a catastrophic problem, usually just a dirty contact on the lens.

So be careful and make sure your purchase will be rewarding long term.

IMO

BC

[ondebanks]

Mamiya 645AFDII kit, plus 105 3.5 lens, ZD22 back

Are you sure about that lens - 105/3.5? That's not a Mamiya 645 lens spec - the only 105/3.5 I know is actually for the Mamiya C series TLRs!

Could it be a Hassy 100/3.5 Planar for the V series, on one of those ubiquitous adapters?

[dizzyg44]

Are you sure about that lens - 105/3.5? That's not a Mamiya 645 lens spec - the only 105/3.5 I know is actually for the Mamiya C series TLRs!

Could it be a Hassy 100/3.5 Planar for the V series, on one of those ubiquitous adapters?

No, it's my fat finger dumbness I meant to type 150/3.5

Thanks for the really good advice so far from everyone!  I really appreciate it.

I've abandoned the the ZD22 rig idea due to the issues they've had.

[dizzyg44]

Thanks everyone for your insight!

I did make a decision and was taken great care of by Capture Integration.

I was able to get a Phase One AF (mamiya 645afdIII) with 6 month warranty, New 80mm lens (w/new warranty), and an Aptus 22 back for an incredibily good price.

the reason for this wasn't on price.

For me the reasons were:

Cost of upgradability, lenses, accessories.

I don't nor do I see myself having the pocketbook for Hassie lenses or having to toss the back/body to upgrade.  The Mamiya being open to other backs was important to me.

I'm not a working professional photog so the initial and especially long term cost of ownership is critical.

Nothing at all wrong with hassies, either system will yield great results but this one seems to be the best fit.

I can't wait to get it in!

[dizzyg44]

Best of luck. So why choose the AFDIII? which with studio flash is generally 1/100 sync, 1/125 is really pushing it. It seemed people shooting was top of the list for you in studio and on location.

The faster sync would've been nice but not a necessity.  Being that your exposure is dependent on your flash duration which is far faster than 1/125th, freezing action is not much of an issue with my lighting gear, being able to shoot down to iso25, ambient can be damn near eliminated.  With that said, if I need to balance flash/ambient, instead of upping shutter with the hassie I can lower my ISO and up my flash power.

plus if I'm out in the field I'll be more likely to be using my Nikon kit anyways.

[bcooter]

Did you try a D3x since you are a Nikon shooter? Not trying to down play your choice. I owned and shot an A22 years back but a D3x is one helluva tool for near same cost with a lot more features, higher flash sync, viewfinder basically equal in size to AFD series with A22 crop, quality in print is indiscernible, far less moire with Nikon.

22mpx seemed to fall in the weird area where I saw more pattern moire than any other capture device.   I've even seen less with the 18mpx p21+ than the A-22 I owned, but this is all very subject dependent.

If you shoot a lot wide open, continuous light, you'll rarely see moire.  If your stopped down, with hard strobe it comes more often so once again it's very subject dependent.

I think there is a sweet spot out there that isn't reached yet, maybe the d3x comes closest, with a minimal aa filter and high resolution.   

IMO

BC

[eronald]

22mpx seemed to fall in the weird area where I saw more pattern moire than any other capture device.   I've even seen less with the 18mpx p21+ than the A-22 I owned, but this is all very subject dependent.

If you shoot a lot wide open, continuous light, you'll rarely see moire.  If your stopped down, with hard strobe it comes more often so once again it's very subject dependent.

I think there is a sweet spot out there that isn't reached yet, maybe the d3x comes closest, with a minimal aa filter and high resolution.  

IMO

BC

The D3x is strong because it delivers a good or decent file in any situation, any light. The 5DII is less flexible, I find some really great thick files even at 1600 ISO, and then some soft watery ones. Of course I'm just an amateur As for the digital back that I use, the only real problem is that the 645AFDII rarely never focuses at *exactly* the right spot. The original poster should be made aware of the fact that even older backs give better files than the dSLRs but the ISO is much lower, and the cameras are substantially weaker, especially the older ones, so one needs to set up and shoot more carefully. MF impacts the photographic process, it is not a drop-in replacement for better results.

Edmund

[Doug Peterson]

The original poster should be made aware of the fact that even older backs give better files than the dSLRs but the ISO is much lower, and the cameras are substantially weaker, especially the older ones, so one needs to set up and shoot more carefully. MF impacts the photographic process, it is not a drop-in replacement for better results.

I might squabble with the word "substantially" given that medium format bodies often have features (that may or may not be important to you) such as:
mechanical mirror lockup, waist level viewfinder, bright/large viewfinder, availability of leaf shutter lenses, availability of wireless transmitter, rotatable backs (so you don't have to turn the camera for vertical shooting). However, no one would argue the point that shooting speed, focus speed, and especially focus speed in low light or with moving subjects is better on a Nikon D3X than any medium camera.

Other than this squabble that really is one of the best summaries of what medium format is (and is not) I've read.

---

Focus speed and accuracy on an AFD2 is "good", but certainly not "great". The Phase One AF (aka Mamiya AFD3) and especially the Phase One DF made strong improvements to the focus speed and accuracy, especially in low light. One of the benefits of medium format is that you can upgrade the body or the back (you don't always have to upgrade both as would be the case of going from a D3X to an eventual e.g. D4X). So if you got an Aptus 17/22 on an AFD2 (I realize that it's not one of the two "deals" you mentioned but I think it's always much better to FIRST find out what fits your needs and then find deals on that, rather than the other way around) you could later upgrade to a Phase One AF or Phase One DF to improve your autofocus/speed/etc/etc.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
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[dizzyg44]

Thanks Doug.

Actually as mentioned previously, I ended up choosing the Phase One AF kit, Aptus22 from your company.  

btw, I sent you an email this morning.

[Doug Peterson]

Thanks Doug.

Actually as mentioned previously, I ended up choosing the Phase One AF kit, Aptus22 from your company.  

btw, I sent you an email this morning.

Ha! Sometimes its hard to keep online/offline straight!