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Author Topic: Targets for Epson 3880 Light Compared to 4000.  (Read 4091 times)

nkpoulsen

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Targets for Epson 3880 Light Compared to 4000.
« on: November 27, 2010, 10:01:33 pm »

I'm just starting to use a 3880 that I bought recently.  I'm printing targets to build RGB profiles for my favorite papers, and they're lighter than targets I was getting from my 4000 and other printers I've seen.  I'm using the ProfileMaker 5.0 918 target and the Epson 3880 driver.

Is this characteristic of K3 inks?  I'm a little concerned, because I want the blacks to approach maximum black.  I've been experimenting a little with adding 10% extra ink, and I see a faint difference.

Is this other people's experience?
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Targets for Epson 3880 Light Compared to 4000.
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2010, 10:27:20 pm »

I'm just starting to use a 3880 that I bought recently.  I'm printing targets to build RGB profiles for my favorite papers, and they're lighter than targets I was getting from my 4000 and other printers I've seen.  I'm using the ProfileMaker 5.0 918 target and the Epson 3880 driver.

Is this characteristic of K3 inks?  I'm a little concerned, because I want the blacks to approach maximum black.  I've been experimenting a little with adding 10% extra ink, and I see a faint difference.

Is this other people's experience?
If your 3880 targets are lighter, I suspect something wrong in your setup in printing them.

What OS?  What software?  What type of paper?  What paper type settings in the printer driver?
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nkpoulsen

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Re: Targets for Epson 3880 Light Compared to 4000.
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2010, 12:39:34 am »

Good point.  I should have included that information initially.

The two that I'm using thus far are Hahnemuhle's Fine Art Pearl and Fine Art Baryta.  For the latter, a glossy, I use the maximum resolution, 2880, print for Finest Detail, and I selected Ultra Premium Photo Paper Luster as the media selection.  Of course, I'm printing No Color Management in CS3 PS Extended, and I've turned off color management in the driver.

It's not that the target is light.  It's lighter than what I experience on the 4000, which is actually pretty dark.  But in speaking with X-Rite in the past, correctly printed targets tend to be dark in appearance.  This makes sense, because one wants black areas in the target to be near the maximum black of which the paper is capable.  As a comparison, a higher percentage of the patches when printed with the 4000 are quite dark.  With the 3880, a smaller percentage of the patches are quite dark.

As for Fine Art Pearl, which is a semi-gloss, I'm experimenting with Premium Fine Art Matte and Ultra Premium Fine Art Matte as my media settings.  The other settings are the same: 2880, not fast, Finest Detail, and 2880 resolution.  Normally one would specify Photo Black with a semi-gloss paper.  But, I've been able to get really excellent, deep blacks with this paper using Matte Black through my RIP.  (Deeper than with the Photo Black.)  So, I thought that I would give that a try.
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RHPS

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Re: Targets for Epson 3880 Light Compared to 4000.
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2010, 06:25:48 am »

The targets are printed with no colour management so the visual appearance only indicates the intrinsic behaviour of the printer. It doesn't realy tell you much about the performance after profiling. The 4000 intrinsically prints very dark in my experience so profiles for the 4000 have to lighten the mid-tones a lot. The 3800's that I have profiled are intrinsically more accurate than the 4000 so the profiles have less work to do. If you compare the colours in the printed target with what they should be (using Measure Tool for instance) you will probably find that the 3800 is much closer than the 4000.

I have made hundreds of profiles for people and can assure you that there is no simple correlation between how dark the targets are and how wide the printer colour gamut is. Judge it on the final (profiled) print and I think you'll find the 3800 wins.
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Targets for Epson 3880 Light Compared to 4000.
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2010, 02:58:46 pm »

I haven't profiled a 4000 for a number of years.  I think before you draw any conclusions by comparing targets from the two printers, I would build the profiles and see where the Dmax and gamut are in a program such as ColorThink. As mentioned, the purpose of the profile is to characterize how a printer lays down ink including density so comparing targets of two completely different printers and inksets doesn't offer much.

If the targets were substantially light it may indicate a problem in printing the targets.  Sounds like in this case  you are doing everything right.

As far as increasing ink load, you may find it will increase dmax, but it may also overload the paper causing some puddling and blocking in the shadows.  It is possible to do this, but takes some careful testing.  It may be worth the effort using a non - Epson paper.  (You may also find the printer paper can't handle the ink load of your chosen paper type in the driver.)
« Last Edit: November 29, 2010, 01:56:44 pm by Wayne Fox »
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nkpoulsen

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Re: Targets for Epson 3880 Light Compared to 4000.
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2010, 01:59:18 am »

I'm watching for the puddling.  Anyway, just experimenting with a 5 or 10% increase.

I have an older version of ColorThink and will give that a try.  Thanks.

I can also print a target on Premium Luster and see how that compares.  Targets should be correct for Epson papers, given that they have media settings specifically for that paper.  The mystery is knowing which media setting to use for 3rd party papers?  The nice thing about a RIP is being able to determine one's own media settings.

Being a new printer, I'm probably just getting used to its idiosyncrasies.
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RHPS

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Re: Targets for Epson 3880 Light Compared to 4000.
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2010, 06:16:42 am »

I'm watching for the puddling.  Anyway, just experimenting with a 5 or 10% increase.
Watch out for possible inversions in the shadows too. If you put down too much ink your Dmax can actually reduce - bad news for profiling.
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Targets for Epson 3880 Light Compared to 4000.
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2010, 03:39:47 pm »

The mystery is knowing which media setting to use for 3rd party papers?  The nice thing about a RIP is being able to determine one's own media settings.
Almost all 3rd party papers supply profiles ...  many of which are very good.  The 3880 is extremely consistent from printer to printer, so a well made factory profile will almost always suffice.  I'd try the manufacturers profile first.

Some of them aren't so good, so if you make your own, the best place to start is by using the media choice recommended by the manufacturer.  When they supply their profiles they will tell you what epson media choice to select in the driver.

As to whether you can gain anything by increasing the ink load, as mentioned it's a slippery slope unless you really know what you're looking for and what you are doing.  I've been printing on Epson printers for a long time and really haven't found a case where I needed to mess with the ink loads.  Maybe I'm just less critical, but I get great dMax and terrific results.

I strongly recommend printing a known reference file once you get the profile built and compare those to prints made from a profile without the increased ink.  Personally I like the one Bill Atkinson offers, as it has a huge number of high saturation images of nearly every color as well as several color and greyscale ramps to evaluate.
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eronald

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Re: Targets for Epson 3880 Light Compared to 4000.
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2010, 08:07:09 pm »

Your targets are probably misprinted because of the usual issues with drivers and Photoshop. However, as another poster remarks, the 3880 samples tend to match, so canned profiles work much better than with the 4000. I would check on Epson media if your profiles are in the same league as the canned ones, if not you do have a software issue.

Edmund


I'm just starting to use a 3880 that I bought recently.  I'm printing targets to build RGB profiles for my favorite papers, and they're lighter than targets I was getting from my 4000 and other printers I've seen.  I'm using the ProfileMaker 5.0 918 target and the Epson 3880 driver.

Is this characteristic of K3 inks?  I'm a little concerned, because I want the blacks to approach maximum black.  I've been experimenting a little with adding 10% extra ink, and I see a faint difference.

Is this other people's experience?
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Targets for Epson 3880 Light Compared to 4000.
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2010, 01:43:39 am »

Your targets are probably misprinted because of the usual issues with drivers and Photoshop.
This really isn't as problematic as you seem to believe.

Symptoms I've seen of this problem isn't light targets, but more likely incorrect color in some of the color patches ... some of them extremely different colors than targets that are printed correctly.

If using Epson printers, Leopard or Snow Leopard, and CS4 or 5, the documented work around is 100% reliable.
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nkpoulsen

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Re: Targets for Epson 3880 Light Compared to 4000.
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2010, 12:49:38 am »

. . . Some of them aren't so good, so if you make your own, the best place to start is by using the media choice recommended by the manufacturer.  When they supply their profiles they will tell you what epson media choice to select in the driver. . .

I had checked the data sheet thinking it would be there.  But, I missed checking with the profile.  Thanks.
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digitaldog

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Re: Targets for Epson 3880 Light Compared to 4000.
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2010, 10:55:04 am »

Ignore how the targets look at this point and build a profile and run a few test images through it. The linearity of the driver over the years has changed so you can’t gauge what a non color managed set of color patches looks like visually to a large degree (obviously if one ink were not firing, you’d see what odd looking target, a sign you need to check the printer).
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