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michswiss

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Would I be completely daft...
« on: November 25, 2010, 12:06:02 am »

...to pick up a Mamiya 7II with the 80mm lens to begin experimenting in MF?  I'd still be using it for street and people work, but also some experimentation in more controlled studio settings.  I can't afford a MFDB set up (or at least I don't think I can), but I could possibly spring for a Hassy H2 with film back and 80mm.  The H2 felt really familiar to standard SLR handling, which is nice, but the 7II is much more affordable and basic setup.

What other options should I be looking at?

TIA

bryanyc

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Re: Would I be completely daft...
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2010, 12:39:33 am »

Don't think you would be daft.
You know the options....
The Mam is quiet, sharp, friendly.... A great camera.
A Rollie tlr would be another choice.  Not as good with color perhaps- but also quiet and you have the ground glass and look down...... Smooth.
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vandevanterSH

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Re: Would I be completely daft...
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2010, 12:44:59 am »

For the most options for "experimentation" with MF,  that isn't the latest gear,  maybe the 'blad 203 FE.  Can use "in lens" and focal plane shutters, TTL flash metering and many superb lens options including the 110mm f/2.  These bodies will run about 2,100-2,300USD in EX condition  but have maintained their value on the used market if you decide to resell in the future.  Will also shoot film and digital.

Steve
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amsp

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Re: Would I be completely daft...
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2010, 01:44:01 am »

I'd probably go with a used Mamiya AFD2, it's cheap and you'd be buying into a digital ready system if you decide to go that route in the future. Any lenses you buy can be used on the current PhaseOne 645DF and you could use the AFD2 as a backup if you want to upgrade. If you know for sure you're not interested in digital and want a compact MF camera the Mamiya 7 is fine however.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Would I be completely daft...
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2010, 01:54:33 am »

Hi,

May I ask what you are going to do with your film images? Wet lab? Commercial prints? Scan yourself and print? Just use slides?

Best regards
Erik



...to pick up a Mamiya 7II with the 80mm lens to begin experimenting in MF?  I'd still be using it for street and people work, but also some experimentation in more controlled studio settings.  I can't afford a MFDB set up (or at least I don't think I can), but I could possibly spring for a Hassy H2 with film back and 80mm.  The H2 felt really familiar to standard SLR handling, which is nice, but the 7II is much more affordable and basic setup.

What other options should I be looking at?

TIA
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Christoph C. Feldhaim

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Re: Would I be completely daft...
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2010, 04:23:14 am »

...to pick up a Mamiya 7II with the 80mm lens to begin experimenting in MF?  I'd still be using it for street and people work, but also some experimentation in more controlled studio settings.  I can't afford a MFDB set up (or at least I don't think I can), but I could possibly spring for a Hassy H2 with film back and 80mm.  The H2 felt really familiar to standard SLR handling, which is nice, but the 7II is much more affordable and basic setup.

What other options should I be looking at?

TIA

The Mamiya 7 II is a terrific camera and the wide angles are known to be excellent.
But I also see, that buying into a system that has an option for digital later  might be a good idea. I expect the market for used digital backs to grow much over the years and I'm looking forward to the time when a used P45 or evem P65 will be available for a piece of cake ...

Rob C

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Re: Would I be completely daft...
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2010, 04:40:51 am »

...to pick up a Mamiya 7II with the 80mm lens to begin experimenting in MF?  I'd still be using it for street and people work, but also some experimentation in more controlled studio settings.  I can't afford a MFDB set up (or at least I don't think I can), but I could possibly spring for a Hassy H2 with film back and 80mm.  The H2 felt really familiar to standard SLR handling, which is nice, but the 7II is much more affordable and basic setup.

What other options should I be looking at?

TIA


Jenn

I think your Mamiya choice is a good one, if you can accept rangefinder focussing; also the 6x6, earlier version of the Mamya 120 roll-filmers was a good camera, but neither offers a digi back, though the 6x7 one did, I think I remember, offer a panoramic insert... to me, pointless: just crop.

However, if you are thinking of staying with film, think carefully about scanning. Good scanners for film are very expensive and rare; I've just spent the best part of two tedious weeks scanning old 35mm Kodachromes; from there I had to work on each one to get it into reasonable shape for the website, and then last night, I suddenly switched the computer back on and into Photoshop, to discover that instead of getting the expected My Pictures folder, I raised one called Photoshop which contained twenty scans! God only knows how - I have made no such folder. Worse, I managed to transfer two of them to the correct folder and now I can't raise that 'unreal' one anymore and so I can't find the rest of that group of scans. I haven't the heart to begin again, and will have to make do with what I already managed to work with via the normal channels! So, for me, the film love affair is over. Period.

I wouldn't go for a film Rolleiflex TLR, you will only get frustrated with the limitations of one lens. There were also models of a wide one - not very - and a 135mm longer lensed creature. But then, they are bulky things too, even if there's no mirror bounce nor shutter bounce either, for that matter.

The more I think about cameras, the more I conclude that stepping backwards in time is only a good idea in matters of the heart and music.

Rob C

Dick Roadnight

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Re: Would I be completely daft...
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2010, 05:33:50 am »

...to pick up a Mamiya 7II with the 80mm lens to begin experimenting in MF?  I'd still be using it for street and people work, but also some experimentation in more controlled studio settings.  I can't afford a MFDB set up (or at least I don't think I can), but I could possibly spring for a Hassy H2 with film back and 80mm.  The H2 felt really familiar to standard SLR handling, which is nice, but the 7II is much more affordable and basic setup.

What other options should I be looking at?

TIA
One option might be to get a Hassy V system, as you would be able to expand and uprate the system, and get a digiback for it at some point.

I think that MF cameras without the option of conversion to digital are inexpensive because of it, and might not hold their value as fewer people will want film-only cameras.
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Mr. Rib

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Re: Would I be completely daft...
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2010, 06:06:04 am »

I'm not sure what features in particular are you after, but RZ67 is a good way to begin with- everything is cheap, and I mean CHEAP. These $300-400 lenses render quite well, you can easily use the setup for MFDB later on if you decide to make your move. I don't know how much hiking will you be experiencing with the camera, but if you will be walking around with the camera a lot- get a gym ticket along with it :) Oh, one remark- RZ67 is not a discrete kind of camera. mirror flap is quite noticeable and the winder makes things 10x worse in terms of noise. Haven't used 7 II although tests suggest the lenses are stellar performers. But buying into 7 II system will cut off the possibility of going digital, so think about it.
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IanB

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Re: Would I be completely daft...
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2010, 07:35:01 am »

Anyone asking for camera recommendations on this forum inevitably gets much more than they asked for!

In answer to the OP - no you would not be completely daft in getting a Mamiya 7. Far from it - they are excellent cameras, particularly for street and people. Even if you get something like an RZ or Hassy, these are best used on tripods for studio work etc. (especially the RZ), and if you have one of those you will end up wanting the freedom to shoot unobtrusively hand-held from time to time. You probably really want one of each (eventually!) - start with whichever takes your fancy, and enjoy it.
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michswiss

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Re: Would I be completely daft...
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2010, 08:26:25 am »

Anyone asking for camera recommendations on this forum inevitably gets much more than they asked for!

You know it, but as anticipated it's all good advice with the possible exception of the RZ.  I'm not planning to use a pack mule for my street work!  ;)

The 7II came as a recommendation from my local printer/lab.  The place I use does all the wet work including high res drum scans at excellent pricing.  It's made moving back to film very enjoyable. The problem will be when I move back to AU.  I'm looking into workflows that will let me keep using these guys but I don't know how practical that will be.

But, I'm not wedded to film and I don't mind a bigger than dSLR footprint.  What I want from MF is greater tonality and the ability to print large. And while 3:2 ratio of 35mm is ok, I really lean toward a more "square" aspect ratio.  I'd also go straight to digital if the price wasn't so prohibitive.

A question on the 'Blads.  Used 503s are everywhere here but I don't know what to look for nor the variations in the coding of the sub-models.  Also, why not go to an H2 instead?  I'd like to keep the total budget for the system to less than ~$4k.

Mr. Rib

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Re: Would I be completely daft...
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2010, 09:27:12 am »

... I'm not planning to use a pack mule for my street work!  ;)...

Well, that depends on your priorities / needs, I use my RZ sometimes as a walk-around camera, but I don't mind the extra kilos :)
H2 is a good choice if you consider going digital in the future. A sidenote: I have one up for sale but it comes with a P30 back. A bit out of the budget you mentioned, although quite reasonably priced- $6300 with 80mm.

From what I heard, Mamiya 7 II would be probably a sheer pleasure to work with, too bad there will be no digital options for this system.
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ndevlin

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Re: Would I be completely daft...
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2010, 11:01:12 am »

The Mamiya 6 and Mamiya 7 are both utterly brilliant cameras. I personally prefer the 6, but that's a matter of taste.

This is a perfect way to get into MF photography. There's not a day I go shooting where I don't wish it was with one of these cameras. The compelling convenience of digital is the only thing that keeps me from using these full time.

What is not mentioned in the posts above is that a Mamiya RF is an entirely different paradigm of camera than a 'Blad or any other slr -- reference the whole "rf vs dslr" conversation.  Rangefinders are harder to use for landscape work, but superior for many travel applications. Pick your poison.

I would highly encourage you to get one of these (the 6s are way cheaper) and go play with it. The re-sale market is pretty stable, so if it's not for you, recouping our capital outlay won't be that hard. It's not like digital where you can kiss 35% of the value goodbye every year.

Cheers,

- N.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2010, 05:28:48 pm by ndevlin »
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Rob C

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Re: Would I be completely daft...
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2010, 11:24:34 am »

Jenn, the only thing about your film camera aspirations that worries me, vis a vis your expectations about tonality, is that you are using an outside lab.

One of the unfortunate things about that is that unless you do your own darkroom work, you'll never really know how well or otherwise you are exposing film, and worse, just how good your printing could be. I learned this the hard way when I moved form the luxury of working in an industrial in-house unit where quality was king, regardless of the number of takes it took, to having to sub out my colour work when I went on my own. I knew from experience of doing the damn stuff that the labs always stopped testing filtration too soon. A tiny bit more this way or that would have made perfect, but no, it's all down to a price and the notion (which I hate) of something being what is known as 'commercially acceptable'. Of course I understand the economics they face: they have a price list that covers so much time and not a minute more. But, for the artist, as against the commercial photographer on a budget, that won't do. It's one reason my F3 sits in a safe. I have broken up my little darkroom and can't allow anybody else to eff with my film; there is no other way. Black and white is no less demanding a medium than colour.

Unless you can crack the processing thing, I'd buy nothing. However good you may think your lab people are, you can't expect them to take your work to the nth degree. Only you, yourself, will.

Rob C

BobDavid

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Re: Would I be completely daft...
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2010, 12:07:08 pm »

The Mamiya 7 is a fine option. Even if you decide to migrate to MF digital, you wouldn't want a Mamiya AFD I, II, or III or even the H2, which is getting long on the tooth. If you've got access to a good wet lab and can get drum scans for a good price, go for it. In a couple of years, you'll be able to pick up a great digital MF for a song, as all of the dentists, lawyers, and trust fund kids will be dumping their H4Ds, not to mention the current iteration of the Pentax 645D.

It's not a big deal, really, to process 120 b&w film. You might find that it's fun playing around with different emulsions and solutions.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2010, 12:12:02 pm by BobDavid »
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vandevanterSH

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Re: Would I be completely daft...
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2010, 12:23:47 pm »

...to pick up a Mamiya 7II with the 80mm lens to begin experimenting in MF?  I'd still be using it for street and people work, but also some experimentation in more controlled studio settings.  I can't afford a MFDB set up (or at least I don't think I can), but I could possibly spring for a Hassy H2 with film back and 80mm.  The H2 felt really familiar to standard SLR handling, which is nice, but the 7II is much more affordable and basic setup.

What other options should I be looking at?

TIA

You might also ask the same question here:

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=10

Steve
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Alex MacPherson

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Re: Would I be completely daft...
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2010, 02:23:56 pm »

If you are looking for something for street use then a Mamiya 7II is the perfect choice.

A Hasselblad H2 will attract all kinds of attention in a street environment...but is a great platform for
digital and studio use.

If you are just in the "try it out" stage, I would consider the Mamiya AFD... the camera is smaller than
the H and the lenses cost peanuts.

Captureintegration.com is having a black friday special on AFDIIIs for $899... add an 80mm lens for 299 and bob's your uncle.
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michswiss

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Re: Would I be completely daft...
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2010, 11:34:59 pm »

Jenn, the only thing about your film camera aspirations that worries me, vis a vis your expectations about tonality, is that you are using an outside lab.

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Unless you can crack the processing thing, I'd buy nothing. However good you may think your lab people are, you can't expect them to take your work to the nth degree. Only you, yourself, will.

Rob C

Rob, I used to do my own B&W processing way back in the old, converted bathroom.  I also had access to a full lab including enlargement facilities at a local school where my Father taught.  I don't think I'll be going back down that path again.  I realise that I potentially give up some quality by having anyone other than myself in control of the process.  Something of a trade-off

But aside from standard street shots where IQ isn't the biggest issue, at the moment I'm slightly dissatisfied with 35mm SLRs (film and digital) for certain images I really want to capture but haven't been able to due to lack of my skills or the equipment isn't up to it or both.  I'm also tired of cropping to get to the aspect ratio I imagine for some shots.  So much so that I've been going back through the library and removing any cropping that modified the aspect ratio taking everything back to 3:2.  Most of my images stand up nicely for printing up to ~A3 (I normally print 40cm on the long side for 3:2 and 30cm when square).  Giving up almost a third of my pixels is getting tiring.

Don't get me wrong though, there's a lot I really, really like about my setup and for 85% of what I'm currently doing I don't feel limited in the least.  It's the remaining 15% that's like an unreachable itch that's truly starting to irritate me (the boardwalk shots are in this category as are some larger shots I want to get around Shanghai before leaving).  I guess the option is to always wait for what Nikon offers next which I'm sure will include higher-resolution sensors in the mid-pro category or save my pennies until I can play with the big stuff.

Or just go shoot.

Rob C

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Re: Would I be completely daft...
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2010, 02:33:20 pm »

Rob, I used to do my own B&W processing way back in the old, converted bathroom.  I also had access to a full lab including enlargement facilities at a local school where my Father taught.  I don't think I'll be going back down that path again.  I realise that I potentially give up some quality by having anyone other than myself in control of the process.  Something of a trade-off

But aside from standard street shots where IQ isn't the biggest issue, at the moment I'm slightly dissatisfied with 35mm SLRs (film and digital) for certain images I really want to capture but haven't been able to due to lack of my skills or the equipment isn't up to it or both.  I'm also tired of cropping to get to the aspect ratio I imagine for some shots.  So much so that I've been going back through the library and removing any cropping that modified the aspect ratio taking everything back to 3:2.  Most of my images stand up nicely for printing up to ~A3 (I normally print 40cm on the long side for 3:2 and 30cm when square).  Giving up almost a third of my pixels is getting tiring.

Don't get me wrong though, there's a lot I really, really like about my setup and for 85% of what I'm currently doing I don't feel limited in the least.  It's the remaining 15% that's like an unreachable itch that's truly starting to irritate me (the boardwalk shots are in this category as are some larger shots I want to get around Shanghai before leaving).  I guess the option is to always wait for what Nikon offers next which I'm sure will include higher-resolution sensors in the mid-pro category or save my pennies until I can play with the big stuff.

Or just go shoot.


Jenn,

Yes, you are going to trade away the ultimate in control, but then that also depends on just how good a printer you are yourself; could be the lab guys are as good, too? Who knows?

However, if it’s going to be a matter of using a larger film format and then getting scans, you are into something quite different yet again.

The problem, as I see it, might come down to money, which it certainly has for me. I could neither afford to get stuff scanned by professional drum scanning companies (it’s hobby now, not work) nor invest in a dedicated top-line 120 film scanner. The alternative would leave me at the mercy and maddening frustrations of flat beds, Newton’s rings etc. etc. and I don’t need that any more than I imagine you do.

Also, assuming you do get that perfect scan, what then? Once more it becomes a matter of how great a printer you are via the computer, how good all the chain of goodies and calibrations, and then finally, your own eye plays a casting vote.

So the question, then: with all those unavoidable variables, is it worth investing in hardware in a hybrid system?

Were you to print wet again, then great, but I know that though I prided myself as a pretty hot printer in my day, when I made the break due to the work becoming exclusively transparencies for many years, and then tried to get a small domestic darkroom going again, I discovered that the stuff I could produce using traditional, graded WSG papers, was out of reach (for me) using those horrid, plastic, multigrade sheets of rubbish. Mallorca is very water challenged; one-hour wash times are crimes against nature, if not humanity! So that’s why plastic ‘papers’.

Though he hasn’t exactly said so, I suspect that Fred is also caught up in a sort of quest for ultimate print quality that may be a subliminal comparison he is making between his early wet prints (in cow feeding trays) and stuff off his digital printer. The problem is that you can’t validly compare wet prints and digital prints and get a common sort of sense out of such. For example, I used to hate matt papers when I did wet printing because gloss gave the best tonality by far; now, because of pigment inks, I print everything on matt paper, and only when it gets behind glass or lives within one of those crystal-clear archival sleeves does the sort of tonality I remember and see every day in an old photograph of my kids return to my life.

I have made very convincing glossy digital prints too, but then that bronze… it just doesn’t seem worth the bother running the risk of finding those odd patches of unwanted gold plating! Fools gold plating.

I just don't see how anyone can reach ultimate quality without doing the entire chain of activities themselves. Anything less takes away the basis of a quality standard from which to judge.

Rob C
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