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Author Topic: Updates regarding Ilford GFS VS Canson IBP?  (Read 7247 times)

Mc

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Updates regarding Ilford GFS VS Canson IBP?
« on: November 24, 2010, 10:42:24 am »

Approximately a year ago the Canson Infinity Baryta Photographique was reviewed on the LULA internet site and compared with the Ilford Galerie Gold Fibre Silk. The two papers were found very similar in many respects with the Canson sporting a slightly colder temperature and a subtely different surface. After the article, on this forum and a few others around the net started popping out contrasting opinions regarding the difference between the two papers. The different opinions can be summarised under three schools of thought:

1 - These are exactly the same paper being manufactured in the same mill (no difference in surface or whihteness)

2 - These are very similar papers but slight differences can be appreciated (Michael's own findings and a few others)

3 - These are exactly the same paper but due to batch inconsistences the Canson paper could sometimes look exactly like ilford's while other times it might look different (for instance, colder white temperature due to a tad more OBAs...)

So far I am leaning more towards option "3". This would explain why so many people tend to disagree with each other regarding their findings. If this were true it would mean that Canson's "version" of the paper should be avoid due to batch inconsistences!!!

Personally, I have not been able to get hold of either paper, however, I have downloaded the ICC profiles from Ilford and Canson and compared them in Image Think where they appear to be exactly the same (well actually there is a unbelievably tinytiny difference...). Also, I compared the spectral plots of the two papers using Ernst Dinkla's database "http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.html" (Brilliant and quite useful by the way...). As expected the two papers spectral plots are quite similar but there are some differences. Besides, while the Ilford is shown under the Baryta/Satin,Luster,Perl section the Canson appears under Baryta/High Gloss/Glazed.

Given that it's been almost a year since the first reviews and dicussions about these papers appeared on the net I would like to reopen the dibate and know what's your take on it, I would very much appreciate comments from peple who have actully used Canson and Ilford media extensively thruought the year and have had the opportunity to try out several batches of each brand.

Cheers,

Man
 

as a side note, I have never heard anyone disagreeing with how their Ilford GFS looked VS what it was supposed to look witch should/might mean that "the Ilford version" of these paper doesn't suffer from inconsistent batchs. (or not...)

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narikin

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Re: Updates regarding Ilford GFS VS Canson IBP?
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2010, 11:04:03 am »

they clearly are the same, so does any of 1/2/3 make any difference really?
yes Spectral Viz is the definite proof of this, any variations is minor batch tweaking but the mill.

ditto Innova IFA49 and Epson Exhibition Fiber.

Platine is a great paper if you can take the surface texture.  Canson kept that one for itself. (they should have made it with a smoother surface though)

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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Updates regarding Ilford GFS VS Canson IBP?
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2010, 11:27:41 am »


Personally, I have not been able to get hold of either paper, however, I have downloaded the ICC profiles from Ilford and Canson and compared them in Image Think where they appear to be exactly the same (well actually there is a unbelievably tinytiny difference...). Also, I compared the spectral plots of the two papers using Ernst Dinkla's database "http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.html" (Brilliant and quite useful by the way...). As expected the two papers spectral plots are quite similar but there are some differences. Besides, while the Ilford is shown under the Baryta/Satin,Luster,Perl section the Canson appears under Baryta/High Gloss/Glazed.




Identical profiles reveal even more than identical paper white spectral plots: the interaction of paper coating with the ink. The plots add information of the paper base. The papers could be identical and just batch differences showing. Or there could be an extra gloss layer / hot press roll step in the manufacturing of the Canson. I only judged the unprinted surfaces and the Canson is slightly more glossy in the two directions of the paper. I consider splitting up the categories to: high gloss, gloss, satin, pearl/luster, matte and let the two fall in the gloss map. In fact I should categorise them on the printed surface effect but with a Z 3100-3200 printer using GE many papers get the same gloss and with other printers the categories may differ.

On categories: matte Fiber/Baryta papers are basically not different to the smooth variëties of the Matte Art papers. There are satinised matte art papers that cross the boundary to Fiber papers. I put them in the categories that suppliers use but it isn't so strict.

There are interesting identical paper base spectral plots between RC papers and non RC papers and more of that within each category but then separated on gloss and matte divisions. In some cases you will see almost identical coating spectral plots but on different substrates.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

New: Spectral plots of +165 inkjet papers and still growing:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm


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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Updates regarding Ilford GFS VS Canson IBP?
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2010, 01:11:42 pm »

It then all boils down to which paper is cheapest.  I've been printing on IGFS for over a year and really like it.  When the Canson paper came out I bought a small trial pack and tested it.  I found no difference at all between it and IGFS with both a test print and four of my favorite images.  I've stuck with IGFS.

Alan
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keith_cooper

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Re: Updates regarding Ilford GFS VS Canson IBP?
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2010, 01:20:58 pm »

... ditto Innova IFA49 and Epson Exhibition Fiber.

Not quite the same.

In my iPF8300 ExFib (UK version, called Traditional Photo Paper) shows minor surface markings, but the IFA-49 doesn't.

Whilst they are very similar, I've found differences in the physical finish of the coating
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bye for now -- Keith
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Aristoc

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Re: Updates regarding Ilford GFS VS Canson IBP?
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2010, 01:24:17 pm »

I have both papers. I bought them because I was searching for several brands that looked about the same so I could compare. Both Canson and Ilford are the same price here. About $1.15 CDN. per sheet.

I found that after printing, both the Canson and Ilford papers curl. The Canson a little more than the Ilford.

Here is one difference:

I checked for my printer (2880), you can check for yours.......

Ilford says:      Media Setting:Epson Premium Glossy       Relative Calorimetric     black point comp. ON

Canson says:   Media Setting: Epson Paper Glossy                 Perceptual                  black point comp. ON

Now for the Epson 3880 printer (and several other Epson printers listed), Canson website says to use Epson Premium Semi Gloss. why is it that only the R2880 has paper glossy listed as the media type I don't know. I will have to wait for an email back from Canson (again).
 


I emailed Ilford and verified that they want Epson Premium Glossy to be set for their paper because the read me file that downloads with the Gold Fibre Silk Paper has a typographic error in the media setttings section. I have to still email Canson, to see if they mean Epson Paper glossy, or epson premium glossy as the website for Canson has instructions for the Baryta Photographique for Epson and it says to use "Epson PAPER Glossy" It's the only one that says to use Paper glossy and so it makes me wonder if it is correct or not.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2010, 01:43:46 pm by Aristoc »
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hsmeets

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Re: Updates regarding Ilford GFS VS Canson IBP?
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2010, 04:12:10 pm »

The Canson/Ilford similarity should not be a surprise, i'm not talking specifically about canson/ilford, but as it is with many other products you'l see that there are 3 kind of paper brands.

A) There are companies that develop and manufacture paper on their own.
B) There are companies that develop/specify the paper but have it made by others (by A or D)
C) There are companies that buy an existing paper and relabel it to their own brand
(D) There are companies that only manufacture papers for 3rd parties)

Some (wild)guesses from my side:
Type A: Ilford (Switserland), Hanhemuhle, Sihl, Olmec (previously Dupont?)
Type B: Canson? Moab? Harman (previously made by Sihl?)...Innova? Permajet? Bergger?
Type C: Canon/HP/Epson, retailers with own brand.





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Cheers,

Huib

MHMG

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Re: Updates regarding Ilford GFS VS Canson IBP?
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2010, 06:09:08 pm »

So far, I've been in the #2 camp, that IGSF and Canson Baryta are very similar, likely made in the same coating plant, but slight differences can be appreciated. However, your question gave me purpose to go through the AaI&A database, compare LAB values, pull a couple of sheets from these two brands that I have here in my lab and flex them, examine under black light, look at their surfaces under raking light for texture difference, and lastly spray them with Premier Print Shield side-by-side to see if they absorb the spray identically.

My results were:

1) L*,a*, b* media whitepoint = statistically identical.
2) UV blacklight examination = identical
3) substrate thickness = identical
4) anticurl layer on verso = identical
5) baryta odor = identical
6) texture under raking light = identical within subjective visual rating limits
7) substrate rigidity/flex properties = identical within subjective rating limits
8 Scuff resistance on unprinted surface = identical
9) Spray absorptivity - not quite the same, IGFS absorbing more spray and staying "microporous" rather than "sealed coating" until somewhat higher amounts of spray applied

Item 9 is subtle, admittedly subjective, and may be a batch variability issue, but the reason I didn't take to IGFS when it was first introduced was its scuff resistance combined with difficulty in coating with the ultra low viscosity sprays like Premier Print Shield compared to other "traditional fiber papers" like HN photo rag Baryta.  The Canon Baryta I purchased seems to be a little easier to coat successfully in just one or two passes, IMHO. The IGFS seems to take three successive coats minimum to cover uniformly.

So, my conclusion:  

Well, for all practical purposes end-users will conclude these are identical papers so buy on price, and it's almost guaranteed they are coated in the same plant with essentially same image receptor coatings and anti-curl layers.  However, Canson could be supplying the base sheet for it's branded version of this product, whereas Ilford may be getting a base sheet (roll) for IGFS from another paper mill. Physical properties can be spec'd very very close and underneath the coatings would be hard to ascertain that they are different, but Canson could legitimately be providing a chemically different alphacellulose base paper for coating (there's a lot of other chemistry and physics in paper making besides the fibers). We have no easy way of knowing, but if I'm correct, then it would be consistent with other's findings that the papers curl slightly differently when wet with ink. Moreover, Canson could be requesting Ilford to make other slight modifications to the coating chemistry that we don't know about. That plus subtle base sheet differences could account for why I'm seeing differences in trying to top coat them with Print Shield as well as why others like MR seem to observe subtle differences in the two products.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: November 24, 2010, 06:16:42 pm by MHMG »
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narikin

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Re: Updates regarding Ilford GFS VS Canson IBP?
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2010, 06:13:44 pm »

Not quite the same.
In my iPF8300 ExFib (UK version, called Traditional Photo Paper) shows minor surface markings, but the IFA-49 doesn't.
Whilst they are very similar, I've found differences in the physical finish of the coating

well, see above OP and Ernsts comments.

its "not quite the same", because they make the tiniest tweak/ extra roll/ surface gloss/ whatever, but... its the same for 99% of purposes.

If you want to have fun, spend a couple of hours with Ernst's SpectraViz and play 'Snap'.

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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Updates regarding Ilford GFS VS Canson IBP?
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2010, 08:40:44 am »

Hi,

I would like to ask you Baryta experts a question: What is the ideal humidity/temperature to print on Ilford Gold Fibre Silk? Which values may cause problems? Sometimes the room where my Epson 9880 stands has only 30% humidity (@ 20° C).

Thank you,
Johannes
That should not be a problem at all.  During the winter here when the heat is on, the humidity in the house drops to that level (and we have a humidifier running).  I've never had a problem in printing on IGFS (same goes for the summer time when the humidity can get quite high).

Alan
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Ian99

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Re: Updates regarding Ilford GFS VS Canson IBP?
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2010, 10:00:25 am »

The instructions for IGFS suggest optimal results between 40-60% RH.
Last winter the humidifier failed and RH was probably down to 15-20% (in Toronto) and I noticed significantly greater problems with curl.
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Mc

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Re: Updates regarding Ilford GFS VS Canson IBP?
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2010, 06:34:44 am »

Thank you all for sharing your findings! not only will this post be a great resource for people wanting to know more about these two papers but it will also serve as a good starting point towards a methodology for comparing different papers.

cheers,
Mc
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francois

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Re: Updates regarding Ilford GFS VS Canson IBP?
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2010, 07:26:43 am »

In my box was a paper that said the setting for Gold Fibre Silk should be
Premium Semigloss Photo Paper (250)
but that box I bought, when the paper was brand new. I never checked again. I used that for the epson 4000 and 9880.
So now I try the new setting. Just to understand it right, it is

Premium Glossy Photo Paper (250). There is also Premium "Glossy Photo Paper (170)" and "Premium Glossy Photo Paper".

Thank you,
Johannes
I'm interested in this issue too. The Ilford profiles for GFS mention "Premium Semi Glossy" paper… I haven't yet tried to print using the Ilford profiles with Glossy media setting in the Epson driver.
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Francois

Aristoc

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Re: Updates regarding Ilford GFS VS Canson IBP?
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2010, 08:57:02 am »

Just remember to properly read the icc profile name. in the name, is the description of the settings that you are suppose to use for your particular printer.

IGGFS13_EPR2880_EPGn

    EPR2880 = Epson R2880 printer                      EP  =   Epson Premium Glossy    n = no colour management
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deanwork

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Re: Updates regarding Ilford GFS VS Canson IBP?
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2010, 10:55:01 am »

I haven't tried the Canson IBP but worked with the Ilford for a year. I've never seen a paper scratch as easily as this one. Maybe the Canson version coating is better, but if not I wouldn't get near it. The Platine seems tough enough more like Silver Rag that Ilford Gallerie. That Ilford scratches before it even goes in the printer.

j
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francois

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Re: Updates regarding Ilford GFS VS Canson IBP?
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2010, 11:07:45 am »

Just remember to properly read the icc profile name. in the name, is the description of the settings that you are suppose to use for your particular printer.

IGGFS13_EPR2880_EPGn

    EPR2880 = Epson R2880 printer                      EP  =   Epson Premium Glossy    n = no colour management

For my Epson 3800 the profile is:  IGGFS13_EP3800_PSPPn.icc which seems to indicate that I should use Premium Semigloss Photo Paper (with -> blackpoint comp = ON, relative-colorimetric and PK ink).
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Francois

francois

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Re: Updates regarding Ilford GFS VS Canson IBP?
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2010, 06:00:39 am »

I read that here, written by Aristoc above. I made new profiles with this for a 9880.
I believe that with new custom profiles there shouldn't be any problem but I was wondering if I could print with the Ilford OEM profiles and Glossy media and detect an improvement. I'm out of GFS paper at the moment and can't do tests.
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Francois

Aristoc

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Re: Updates regarding Ilford GFS VS Canson IBP?
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2010, 10:34:21 am »

I just received an email back from Canson and they have confirmed that for their Ilford Gold Fibre Silk profile for the R2880 that I should be using "Epson Paper Glossy" for the media type and NOT "Epson Premium Glossy".  Their web site is correct but I had emailed them to make sure since it is the only profile listed using the 'paper' glossy setting.




I have both papers. I bought them because I was searching for several brands that looked about the same so I could compare. Both Canson and Ilford are the same price here. About $1.15 CDN. per sheet.

I found that after printing, both the Canson and Ilford papers curl. The Canson a little more than the Ilford.

Here is one difference:

I checked for my printer (2880), you can check for yours.......

Ilford says:      Media Setting:Epson Premium Glossy       Relative Calorimetric     black point comp. ON

Canson says:   Media Setting: Epson Paper Glossy                 Perceptual                  black point comp. ON

Now for the Epson 3880 printer (and several other Epson printers listed), Canson website says to use Epson Premium Semi Gloss. why is it that only the R2880 has paper glossy listed as the media type I don't know. I will have to wait for an email back from Canson (again).
 


I emailed Ilford and verified that they want Epson Premium Glossy to be set for their paper because the read me file that downloads with the Gold Fibre Silk Paper has a typographic error in the media setttings section. I have to still email Canson, to see if they mean Epson Paper glossy, or epson premium glossy as the website for Canson has instructions for the Baryta Photographique for Epson and it says to use "Epson PAPER Glossy" It's the only one that says to use Paper glossy and so it makes me wonder if it is correct or not.
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