Matte vs Photo Papers - what am I missing?

[narikin]

Much as I want to use Matte inkjet papers, and love the OBA free longevity of them, the purity of 100% cotton, etc, etc, I am struggling with the end results - Murky blacks, weaker colors, noticeable loss of Gamut and contrast - compared to what I'm used to with Baryta or regular Photo papers.

There was no problem before as the textured surface of Matte papers meant it was a non-starter for me, but - now we have the Ultrasmooth Matte's coming out, (Epson Hot Press range, Hahnemuhle's UltraSmooth Matte) with texture free surfaces maintaining all that valuable image detail,  so... I took a look again.  Its a lot better, and tempting, but still a noticeable loss of image quality/color/contrast from a Baryta.

Can someone explain what am I missing here? -  why are people happy to reduce their color gamut and have weak blacks in their precious images? Is it because Matte paper "feels" like "art" to handle, or what?  I'm really trying to like them, but need some help:  Soft proofing shows dramatic shifts, that are borne out in the final prints - so I am sticking with my Canson and Hahnemuhle Baryta's, unless someone can help me see the light !


(ps: Yes I know what I am doing with profiles, using MK ink, etc, but any tips gratefully received.)

[Aristoc]

I said the same thing when i first tried epson ultra premium matte. So i stopped printing matte. Until i saw a photo exhibiton where the photographer printed on a long role of matte paper. He wasn't there but it was matte,soft,paper like a rag. The colours to my amazement popped out, were sharp and contrasty. I am by no means a pro but maybe you should try a non matte paper. Which papers did u say you tried.?

[neile]

I'm with you. Until I tried the Moab Somerset Musem Rag I hated matte papers. Now... sometimes, with some images, that paper rocks.

My review: http://www.danecreekfolios.com/blog/2010/7/7/moab-somerset-museum-rag-paper-review.html

Neil

[dgberg]

Epsons Hot Press Bright and Natural both print with outstanding results.
My only issue with both of these is you cannot even think of touching them without leaving a mark of some kind. Especially in the blacks.

[Geoff Wittig]

Cotton rag papers can work for you, if you're printing the right kind of images on them. It really is that simple.

If your photographs depend for their impact on a huge dynamic range, deep black shadows, or vivid color—in other words, drama—then you'll be much happier printing on baryta/semigloss/fibergloss papers. Cotton rag papers will hamstring the very characteristics of the image that these kinds of photographs depend upon.

On the other hand, if your images are moody, subtle, soft and delicate, and if you favor high key, then cotton rag papers may work great for you.

Richard Lohmann does gorgeous prints on cotton rag paper; his photographs tend to be delicate, moody, high key black & white images. The higher dynamic range and much deeper d-max of a glossier paper won't add anything to his photographs. Joseph Holmes does spectacular color landscapes with wild color gamut and crazy detail, on Epson premium luster paper. The constricted gamut and D-max of cotton rag papers would do real violence to their impact.

I still use cotton rag papers for photographs that don't need high d-max and huge gamut, because I really like the lack of annoying reflections and the total absence of bronzing. They're also great for snow scenes that can benefit from their subtle surface texture. For photographs that require more gamut and dynamic range, I use Hahnemüle photorag baryta.


I hope that helps some.

[Alan Goldhammer]

Cotton rag papers can work for you, if you're printing the right kind of images on them. It really is that simple.


I still use cotton rag papers for photographs that don't need high d-max and huge gamut, because I really like the lack of annoying reflections and the total absence of bronzing. They're also great for snow scenes that can benefit from their subtle surface texture.

I quite agree with this assessment.  I sold a print on Sunday (one of my mid-Atlantic Blizzard 2010 shots) that was printed on Museo Portfolio Rag.  I find that the matte rag paper does this image much more justice than either of my two current photo black papers.  The caveat with their use is that because of the delicate surface they really do need to be displayed framed.  I don't use any surface sprays as I'm not convinced about the longevity or whether it will ultimately affect the image.  We are fortunate to have a choice of papers and should not automatically assume that matte papers don't have a role in what we or customers want out of a print.

Alan

[Light Seeker]

Personally, I am torn between matte papers and fiber based gloss papers. I love and use both.

I love and appreciate the beauty of a great matte paper, both textured and smooth. There is a softness and a richness to a matte paper that can be very beautiful. To many, a print made on a nice matte paper looks more like art. In fact, you can use the choice of matte paper / surface as part of your artistic expression. I have one photo in particular, that is often mistaken for a painting. A softly textured matte paper is part of why that happens. For some, a print made on an RC paper looks like a "photo" whereas a print on a nice cotton rag pape r looks like "art". BTW, in the right lighting conditions a matter print can looks just as punchy and saturated as a gloss paper.

Conversly, fiber based gloss papers seem to be a great middle between RC papers and matte papers. They have some of the richness and softness of a matte paper, but increased Dmax, saturation and sharpness. As a photographer, I really like the increased "fidelity". Some of the FB papers have a beautiful texture, reminiscence of a textured matte paper. The downside to me is that you have the sheen to deal with, and the print looks (in relative terms) more like a "photo" than "art".

I choose the paper based on where I want to take the image. All of the above are tools in my tool bag. I would encourage you to pick up a small quantity of a smooth and a nicely textured matte paper and experiment. Recently, I took a really vibrant image, a thistle close up with strong purples and greens, and printed it on BFK Rives, Cone Type 5 and Epson Exhibition Fiber. This image is really dynamic, and I had assumed that it needed the Dmax and saturation of gloss. I laid the prints out in a brightly lit off at my day job, and asked people which they preferred. Half choose a fiber based gloss print and the other half chose the matte print. Some commented that the gloss surface made the image look like a photo, and said they preferred the lack of glare and the soft look of the matte paper.

Terry.

[Gemmtech]

I don't like matte papers either, but try Canson Rag Photographique 310, you may change your mind.  It's the only matte paper I have used that I actually like and I do use it for certain images.  The blacks are damn nice (for pigment inks) and the colors are awesome.  So far it's the only matte paper I've ever tried that I do use.

[Sven W]

I don't like matte papers either, but try Canson Rag Photographique 310, you may change your mind.  It's the only matte paper I have used that I actually like and I do use it for certain images.  The blacks are damn nice (for pigment inks) and the colors are awesome.  So far it's the only matte paper I've ever tried that I do use.

The L value for CRP is 20.7 printed with a Epson 9900 and ImagePrint.
Epson Hot Press has L 17.6.

And I agree with Geoff, I pick a paper that match a certain image. Or express that image on a certain paper.

/Sven

[Josh-H]

I'm with you. Until I tried the Moab Somerset Musem Rag I hated matte papers. Now... sometimes, with some images, that paper rocks.

My review: http://www.danecreekfolios.com/blog/2010/7/7/moab-somerset-museum-rag-paper-review.html

Neil

+1. I blame Neil - but Moab's Somerset Museum Rag made me drop the Baryta papers and go back to matt.

It is more work to print on that a gloss or semi-gloss as you need to tweak the soft proof more .. but oh... the results are just so worth it!

[kwalsh]

How are folks displaying their glossy prints?  I'm always taken by the rich shadows of a glossy print as it rolls of a printer or comes out of the dryer in a wet process, but once behind glass or in any sort of environment without perfectly controlled lighting the effect disappears in all the glare.  In my very limited experience I've had better luck making the trade offs to lower but consistent contrast on a matte paper than when I try to use the whole contrast range of a gloss paper only to have all my careful shadow detail disappear as soon as it is displayed in a "normal" environment.

Thoughts, suggestions, pointers?

Ken

[Craig Murphy]

Anything other that non glare museum glass for glass just plain stinks.  Expensive though.

[framah]

Anything other that non glare museum glass for glass just plain stinks.  Expensive though.

As a professional framer, I thank you for that comment!

 Mercedes leasing thanks you, also!!

[Light Seeker]

I still use cotton rag papers for <snip>. They're also great for snow scenes that can benefit from their subtle surface texture.

Building on what Geoff said, a subtle matte surface texture can add something really nice to any print with lighter toned, solid areas. A light blue sky comes to mind.

With respect to snow scenes, it is interesting to see how the paper base can change how an image "feels", since so much of it shows through. A really bright, white paper will make the image feel cold, whereas a warmer toned paper will make it more inviting. That's of course true for any paper type, although you tend to more easily find warm toned papers in matte.

Terry.

[Rob Reiter]

I've always stocked a lot of matte papers here and some are definitely better than others. My favorite textured paper is Canson Arches Aquarelle Rag. Smoother options with excellent blacks and vivid colors would be Canson Rag Photographique and Moab Entrada Natural, all without OBAs. There are many others out there I've been pleased to print on over the years. But I love Museo Silver Rag and Harman FBAL, too. When seen in a light that illuminates their reflective surfaces, the differences over matte papers is more apparent than otherwise.

Our gallery has a wall of prints now on all of these papers and more. Taken as a whole, the Baryta papers do not appear more brilliant than the others; if anything, the velvety blacks of the Canson papers are the most striking.

[Aristoc]

what about using something like a epson premium semi gloss. isn't that similar to a matte?

[Robcat]

Much as I want to use Matte inkjet papers, and love the OBA free longevity of them, the purity of 100% cotton, etc, etc, I am struggling with the end results - Murky blacks, weaker colors, noticeable loss of Gamut and contrast - compared to what I'm used to with Baryta or regular Photo papers.

Well, I've had the same feelings. Many artists I highly respect on this site love their matte papers. So every once in a while I would try one but could never warm to the results compared to the Harman FB Al I love. You know what? At some point, after issues of technique are overcome, and you have looked and learned and educated your mind and eye, art is a matter of taste. How do you want your images to look? What are you creating? If your heart thrills to a rich baryta image and cools at the sight of the same printed on everyone's favorite matte paper, follow your taste. You were right to experiment with different media; otherwise your taste would be uninformed. But now you have the right to go with what you like. After all, your images represent your unique vision, so why should your paper choice conform to others' ideas of beauty?

[Geoff Wittig]

Painters have the same problem; oil paintings often have a glossy sheen to them, and reflections can be annoying. The traditional solution has been careful lighting: in museums or galleries paintings are illuminated by something like daylight balanced halogen track lighting mounted up on the ceiling just behind the viewer's position, so reflections fall below the field of view. I think that's the only way to go with photos on glossy/semigloss papers framed behind glass: light them carefully from above, and reflections are simply not a problem.

Glazing choices all have pros and cons. Plain window glass is dirt cheap and generally 'good enough' optically, but it often imparts a slight cyan color shift to the image, which you can allow for when printing by going a little warm. I really dislike plexi, both because it's a dust magnet and because it's so easily scratched when attempting to wipe off the massive quantities of abrasive dust particles that miraculously appear on it every day. Non-glare museum glass is really nice, but crazy expensive, and at least IMHO tends to eat into the image's sharpness and 'pop' just a bit. I think if you're careful about how you light your framed photo, you can go with much cheaper glass without problematic reflections.

[narikin]

Cotton rag papers can work for you, if you're printing the right kind of images on them. It really is that simple. 
[...]
If your photographs depend for their impact on a huge dynamic range, deep black shadows, or vivid color—then you'll be much happier printing on baryta/semigloss/fibergloss papers. Cotton rag papers will hamstring the very characteristics of the image that these kinds of photographs depend upon.  On the other hand, if your images are moody, subtle, soft and delicate, and if you favor high key, then cotton rag papers may work great for you.   

Agree with you Geoff.

What interests me is the new generation of Matte papers that are coming out with Flat/ UltraSmooth surface and upgraded receptor layers, meaning better blacks and color range. Canson Infinity, Moab Somerset MR, Hahnemuhle PhotoRag US, Breathing Color Optica One, Epson Hot Press, etc... they all have brought something of this type out recently.  Much better gamut and dMax than any Matte papers before, though still not close to the Baryta's, obviously.

A key point is that at some point the loss of color gamut and deep blacks is overcome by the complete lack of reflection or bronzing in these papers.  Its a trade - which do you prefer: no reflection + no bronzing + no outgassing, or... some reflections with much better contrast and color?  I'd love to find a matte paper like these ones, but with Baryta type color range. A matte surface Platine or Baryta Photographique?  (PK or MK, I don't care)

will get some Canson Rag Photographique to test, and some of that Somerset Museum Rag, + am testing Optica One, though that's loaded to heaven with OBAs...

[loonsailor]

For me, the Somerset Rag has got me really interested in moving back to using matte more, but the problem is with my Epson 3880 printer.  I use the matte for single prints, but usually I want to print more than one.  I am about to print up a folio.  I'll probably do 10 copies, of the 12 prints.  I'm just unwilling to hand-feed all 120 pages.  So, I'll use Canson baryta in the auto-feeder.  It's a beautiful paper, no complaints, but I probably would have done it on the Somerset if it could go in the feeder.