Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Print Permanence Canon ipf8300 vs HP Z3200  (Read 6162 times)

stevenf

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 211
Print Permanence Canon ipf8300 vs HP Z3200
« on: November 19, 2010, 01:08:17 pm »

Does anyone have any thoughts regarding print permanence ratings between the Z3200 and the IPF8300. I have attached links from Wilhelm. I am surprised the colour ratings are not higher with the Canon.

http://www.wilhelm-research.com/hp/WIR_HP_Z3200_2009_02_19.pdf

http://www.wilhelm-research.com/canon/ipf8300.html

Thanks Steven

http://www.friedmanphoto.com
Logged

John Hollenberg

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1185
Re: Print Permanence Canon ipf8300 vs HP Z3200
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2010, 04:07:47 pm »

My thought is that the HP printers have a permanence rating 2-3 times that of Canon and Epson  :D

Seriously, I am not sure what question you are really asking.  The superiority of HP in regards to print permanence has been around for several years, with Canon and Epson far behind.  However, this comes at the expense of a significantly smaller gamut (among other problems).  Scott Martin's review of the Canon X300 generation, including comparisons with Epson and HP, discusses some of the strengths and weaknesses of each printer:

http://www.on-sight.com/2010/04/25/canon-x300-printer-review/
Logged

deanwork

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2400
Re: Print Permanence Canon ipf8300 vs HP Z3200
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2010, 06:10:41 pm »

Yea the deal is Canon has improved its permanence with the last Lucia inks. It is now between HP and Epson for color longevity while up there with Epson in gamut.

The color gamut, is more intense overall on the Canon and Epsons. For some people it can be significant, but for the work I do it has never been an issue because I just don't run into needing more saturation, even in the reds that were improved on the HPZ3200 over the Z3100. I'm not evaluating color models in color think, I'm making prints. But I'm  not doing advertising work or making color match proofs for offset either. A lot of people do.

Hp has a much superior black density for monochrome work that is very visible on matte media. Canon beats it on the fiber gloss media but all are over 2.4 density there. The HP inks out perform the other two significantly in permanence on most all media for color work. For monochrome work Epson and Canon are excellent and beat HP for permanence, as long as you don't add too much color toning. The cyan inks that Epson uses for neutralizing carbon are also very stable, the magenta not so much. The reason for that monochrome stability is the Epson inks in particular are almost pure brown carbon (some say greenish-brown) and are not going to shift much if at all. The HP gray inks are primarily carbon, and are "cooled off" with other pigments when they are made, and encapsulated with a uv filter too, so that you can print out of the quad configuration and not use any color composite inks at all to neutralize them and still have a longevity >250 years in daylight. But all the HP Vivera inks, gray and color, are all designed to fade at the same rate, and that is their version of innovation. They are the only outfit that does that. Personally I like this as it allows me to tone to sepia, warm, selenium, or neutral, or even split tone, with no change in longevity in any of the channels.  And I don't have to spray them with a uv spray because they already have that built into the ink itself. But according to Wilhelm's data, Epson can out perform the HP bw on some media by over a hundred years ( 350 years or so vs 250 years). But once again better not put too much color ink in the mix and he certainly doesn't spell that out. Which makes a difference no doubt. I believe QTR was the ultimate solution for turning off the problem color channels with Epson inks but Epson has shut that down on the latest Epsons like the 9900. Real smart Epson, duh.

One thing very strange though if you look at these Wilhelm postings for all of the inksets, is the significant disparity between the Wilhelm commissioned tests for Hahnemuhle and Canson on all these printers, and the Epson, Canon, and HP tests of the same or similar media with the same ink, that the printer manufactures commission. The printer company tests usually out perform the paper company tests with the same set up. Odd. That is one of the reasons why I trust Aardenburg Imaging far more than Wilhelm Research for accurate data. The criteria with Aardeburg is spelled out clearly so there is no hidden method for determining these figures.
j
Logged

enduser

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 610
Re: Print Permanence Canon ipf8300 vs HP Z3200
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2010, 02:26:34 am »

Go here  http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/acceleratedagingtests.html  to see Mark McCormick-Goodhart's authoritative results on ink permanence.  His results are accessed by many professionals around the world, and his testing methods and presentation are second to none.
Logged

deanwork

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2400
Re: Print Permanence Canon ipf8300 vs HP Z3200
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2010, 12:03:43 pm »

He is second to none and we all have to make it a point to join every year with his very inexpensive membership. We have to make sure he continues this research. It is just in the initial stages but has already told us more than anyone else in the last decade.

john
Logged

MHMG

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1285
Re: Print Permanence Canon ipf8300 vs HP Z3200
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2010, 07:21:59 pm »

My thought is that the HP printers have a permanence rating 2-3 times that of Canon and Epson  :D

Seriously, I am not sure what question you are really asking.  The superiority of HP in regards to print permanence has been around for several years, with Canon and Epson far behind.  However, this comes at the expense of a significantly smaller gamut (among other problems)...

With invaluable help from contributing members of the AaI&A digital print research program, AaI&A now has over 200 unique samples in light fastness testing, and the database keeps growing. As a general rule, I would tend to agree that overall ink longevity ranked best-to-worst probably goes HP then Canon then Epson. But the AaI&A database also shows that choice of paper can be hugely significant, rendering the light fade resistance of a print made with HP ink inferior to a print made with Canon or Epson ink when the media choice is not made with any other factual lightfastness information to support the choice of printer and ink. One has to test the full printer/ink/media combination and also include any additional coating/laminates in the test if one is to make a fully informed choice about printer, ink, and media combinations with respect to initial image quality but also longevity.

At the present time the AaI&A database has numerous examples of print samples made with Epson K3, K3VM, and HDR inks plus Canon Lucia for x000 and x100 printers on various media, plus several HP Z3100 series Vivera Pigment ink/media samples in test. I also just posted four newly contributed samples made with Canon Lucia EX ink (it's an even newer Lucia pigment formulation) on an X300 printer, but regrettably, I still don't have any Hp Z3200 samples in test.  Although we may wish to assume Hp didn't go backwards in lightfastness when it swapped the Z3100 red ink for the new "chromata red" ink used in the Z3200 systems, the only way to know for sure is to test. Note that the current industry-sponsored test protocols don't look at any ink colors other than cyan, magenta, yellow, and neutrals (whether they are comprised of composite CMY or photo gray inks). Thus, there is no light fade test data available today that can tell us about the performance of the Hp Chromata red ink used in the Z3200 printers.  I'd like to remedy that. Anyone with a Z3200 care to submit some print samples for testing?

thanks to everyone here for the very kind comments about the Aardenburg Imaging research.

cheers,

Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

« Last Edit: November 20, 2010, 07:24:04 pm by MHMG »
Logged

MHMG

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1285
Re: Print Permanence Canon ipf8300 vs HP Z3200
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2010, 10:24:59 am »

Just a quick update. I received word from an AaI&A member who was reading this thread that he has both the Z3100 and Z3200 machines in his studio and is going to submit some interesting media for testing. He's also going to help me run a paired comparison test of the Z3100 versus Z3200 output by using the same batches of paper. I will then run the samples side-by-side in test.  In this way we will eliminate any test unit and paper batch variability and be able to more closely compare the Z3100 red versus the newer Z3200 Chromata red performance.

It takes about two months in testing just to reach the first 10 megalux hour exposure interval, and because the Vivera pigments are so stable these tests may run eventually well past the 200 megalux hour mark.  It's just the nature of this type of lightfastness research, but I'm anticipating some very interesting results.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up