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Author Topic: Mini Medium Format Shootout  (Read 55347 times)

Dick Roadnight

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Re: Mini Medium Format Shootout
« Reply #60 on: November 18, 2010, 09:22:19 am »

Can someone please explain to me how the retail photographic industry continues to exist in the UK?? They rape their customers like Vikings on a weekend cruise, in a day-and-age when Fedex puts B&H at everyone's fingertips.  This is shameless and pathetic, and you guys just shouldn't take it anymore.

I'll personally smuggle you a 645D for return airfare to London, for a lot less  ;)

- N.
Last time I imported a second hand item from the US, import duty and Value Added Tax came to 20%.

I am contemplating jumping on a Euro-star and collect a lens from Brussels.
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bjanes

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Re: Mini Medium Format Shootout
« Reply #61 on: November 18, 2010, 09:23:48 am »

Ray, these discussions reach a point where making inferences about image quality by comparing superficial data sets simply isn't useful. You need to see the results to appreciate it, and likely me - yours. However, in principle, when you are working with a sensor which provides twice the data, 16 rather than 14 bit depth, no AA filter and other design features - Phase-One's "secret sauce" unique to that product, you are going to get a set of raw images which tolerates more cropping and allows less stitching with larger print sizes at higher output PPI than you can get from any DSLR, and all this added together makes a difference to what you see. You know what - I believe Phase One is organizing one or more of their PODAS Workshops in or not too far from where you are between this year and next. You should check-out their offerings and sign-up for one of them. It will give you a pretty thorough hands-on understanding of what their brand of MF can do and why. You are under no obligation to buy anything they put in your hands to work with. Some attendees do and others don't. It's a great learning experience.

This brings up one of my favorite quotations:

Lord Kelvin [PLA, vol. 1, "Electrical Units of Measurement", 1883-05-03]

"To measure is to know."

"If you can not measure it, you can not improve it."

"In physical science the first essential step in the direction of learning any subject is to find principles of numerical reckoning and practicable methods for measuring some quality connected with it. I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind; it may be the beginning of knowledge, but you have scarcely in your thoughts advanced to the state of Science, whatever the matter may be."


I think that quantitative and qualitative (subjective) testing both have a place. Indeed two of my favorite reviewers (Bjorn and Diglloyd) both do qualitative testing. However, quantitative testing helps us to understand what parameters are really important to image quality and how IQ is subject to the laws of physics. For example, the statement by Michael that MFDBs have six stops more DR than dSLRs in untenable from a scientific viewpoint as explained in detail by Emil Martinec, who is a highly published physicist at the University of Chicago. Emil concludes:

"According to the engineering standard the MFDB is still well short of the D3x, however according to a standard more relevant to photography the back comes out slightly better (but less than 1/3 stop), mostly because of the larger sensor area collecting more light over the frame.  The difference is not however the many stops DR advantage that some MFDB proponents claim."

I can already anticipate Jeff Schewe's comment that Emil has likely never used the Phase 1 D65+, so his opinion should be discounted.  ;)

What the Phase One does have is megapixels, but it is not clear that those pixels are superior to those of a good dSLR such as the Nikon D3x. Diglloyd (a pay site, but well worth the modest fee), compared the D3x to the Leica S2 and concluded that their per pixel performance was similar if deconvolution sharpening was used with the Nikon to counteract the softening produced by the blur filter.

The P65+ may have 16 bit output, but with an engineering DR of 11.51 stops and a tonal range of 9 bits (DXO), those extra two bits are wasted recording noise. The lack of a blur filter improves apparent sharpness but can result in alaising. Why does Nikon go to the expense of using a blur filter (as does Canon and almost all other dSRL makers)? I understand that a blur filter would be prohibitively expensive for a MFDB, so it is really not an option there.

Regards,

Bill
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 11:14:38 am by bjanes »
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Mini Medium Format Shootout
« Reply #62 on: November 18, 2010, 02:57:59 pm »

I think the biggest reason for the differences between the Leica and 1Ds III images was the choice of lenses. The 24-105 is a good enough lens, but doesn't hold up to glass like the 50mm Summilux, especially in the corners. Also keep in mind that at f/8 the 24-105 is only two stops down from wide open. The samples they posted are consistent with my experience for corner performance on that lens.

However it's undeniable the impact the AA filter on the 1Ds III has compared to the M9.   

I'm wondering if there was any capture sharpening done in this example. The 24-105 is not that soft. I downloaded the center example and imported into Lightroom and found that with a bit of capture sharpening the example was as crisp as the Leica (almost).

Either there was no capture sharpening at all or only the default sharpening which is very soft was applied. In the Michael Reichmann and Jeff Schewe Lightroom 3 tutorial there is an excellent video on capture sharpening. For anybody who have seen this, it is very clear that using either no or just the default capture sharpening will be missing a lot of details. I suspect that the 1Ds mkIII example was not properly done wrt. the capture sharpening.

bradleygibson

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Re: Mini Medium Format Shootout
« Reply #63 on: November 18, 2010, 03:31:22 pm »

Great post, Bill.
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ndevlin

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Re: Mini Medium Format Shootout
« Reply #64 on: November 18, 2010, 09:29:28 pm »

I'm wondering if there was any capture sharpening done in this example. The 24-105 is not that soft. I downloaded the center example and imported into Lightroom and found that with a bit of capture sharpening the example was as crisp as the Leica (almost).

Hans,

Not sure how much sharpening Mark did on the published image, but I pushed it quite hard (in LR3) and didn't find it came to the level of the Leica at all. There's just not nearly as much detail to sharpen.  As i said in the article, one shouldn't make too much of this facet of the test, but the files from the 1DsIII were sub-par, for whatever reason. This was not a technique issue at any stage.

Almost wish we'd have left that part out, because it is a post-script to the principal test, but has taken centre-stage because it's controversial, whereas the main review isn't.

- N.
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tsjanik

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Re: Mini Medium Format Shootout
« Reply #65 on: November 18, 2010, 09:43:07 pm »

Almost wish we'd have left that part out, because it is a post-script to the principal test, but has taken centre-stage because it's controversial, whereas the main review isn't.

- N.
My feelings as well.  I understand why the response has been so strong, but it really detracts from the main focus of the report.
Interestingly, no Phase users are objecting-had to add that tweak.
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Ray

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Re: Mini Medium Format Shootout
« Reply #66 on: November 18, 2010, 10:25:57 pm »

This brings up one of my favorite quotations:

Lord Kelvin [PLA, vol. 1, "Electrical Units of Measurement", 1883-05-03]

"To measure is to know."

"If you can not measure it, you can not improve it."

"In physical science the first essential step in the direction of learning any subject is to find principles of numerical reckoning and practicable methods for measuring some quality connected with it. I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind; it may be the beginning of knowledge, but you have scarcely in your thoughts advanced to the state of Science, whatever the matter may be."


I think that quantitative and qualitative (subjective) testing both have a place. Indeed two of my favorite reviewers (Bjorn and Diglloyd) both do qualitative testing. However, quantitative testing helps us to understand what parameters are really important to image quality and how IQ is subject to the laws of physics. For example, the statement by Michael that MFDBs have six stops more DR than dSLRs in untenable from a scientific viewpoint as explained in detail by Emil Martinec, who is a highly published physicist at the University of Chicago. Emil concludes:

"According to the engineering standard the MFDB is still well short of the D3x, however according to a standard more relevant to photography the back comes out slightly better (but less than 1/3 stop), mostly because of the larger sensor area collecting more light over the frame.  The difference is not however the many stops DR advantage that some MFDB proponents claim."

I can already anticipate Jeff Schewe's comment that Emil has likely never used the Phase 1 D65+, so his opinion should be discounted.  ;)

What the Phase One does have is megapixels, but it is not clear that those pixels are superior to those of a good dSLR such as the Nikon D3x. Diglloyd (a pay site, but well worth the modest fee), compared the D3x to the Leica S2 and concluded that their per pixel performance was similar if deconvolution sharpening was used with the Nikon to counteract the softening produced by the blur filter.

The P65+ may have 16 bit output, but with an engineering DR of 11.51 stops and a tonal range of 9 bits (DXO), those extra two bits are wasted recording noise. The lack of a blur filter improves apparent sharpness but can result in alaising. Why does Nikon go to the expense of using a blur filter (as does Canon and almost all other dSRL makers)? I understand that a blur filter would be prohibitively expensive for a MFDB, so it is really not an option there.

Regards,

Bill

Bill,
Good post! We sometimes need to be reminded of these basic scientific principles of observation and measurement which many people still seem to ignore even centuries after they were first espoused, and despite their having benefited so much from the fruits of such applied principles.

I was a bit surprised at Jeff Schewe's comment implying that one needs to use an MFDB before one can get an idea of the quality of its output. In fact, the remark is quite insulting, implying that some of us may not be smart enough to deduce and imagine the improved image quality one might expect from a larger sensor with a higher pixel count, especially considering the wealth of measurement that is published at DXOMark, which can inform and modify a subjective impression or deduction.

An example of deduction, for Jeff's benefit:

When my best DSLR was the 8mp Canon 20D, I bought a Canon 24mm TS-E, mainly for the purpose of stitching, in those days when stitching programs were not nearly as good as they are today.

I have a number of stitched images from that lens and camera, some of which I've printed big (like, 24" x 40" - not big by Jeff's standards, but appropriately big for the file size) and which hang on a wall. I'm impressed with the clarity and the detail and the subtle shading that is apparent from a close inspection.

On such occasions I remind myself that this is the sort of quality I could expect from a single shot with a 5D2, cropped to the same aspect ratio (except when the camera is horizontal and the aspect ratio is very wide in the 20D stitch - in which case the 5D2 could not compete as a single, cropped shot).

'But what about the pixel quality of the old 20D?', I ask myself. Perhaps the cropped 5D2 image would have better dynamic range, lower noise, superior color rendition.

Okay! Let's have a look at some real measurments. I refer to DXOMark's graphs comparing the 20D with the 5D2, and find, surprise! surprise!, that the 5D2 pixel is no better than the 20D pixel. The differences are so marginal, they are of no consequence in practice. (To see this, you need to go into 'screen' mode which compares pixel with pixel).

So there you have it. A simple process of intelligent deduction.

Of course, the 5D2 has a wealth of other useful qualities which the 20D lacks. This comparison relates only to basic image quality under ideal conditions that might allow for stitching.

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Joseph Yeung

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Re: Mini Medium Format Shootout
« Reply #67 on: November 18, 2010, 11:46:18 pm »

I think it's a well written review, the only thing that stands out as a problem is that it's hard to tell whether the 100% crops posted are actually 100%...

Starting with figures 19, 20 and 21, these are described as 100% crops.  But looking at the UI features of Photoshop shown in the edges and corners, these are all different in each in each image, and all heavily shrunk from what one would expect to actually see onscreen.  The UI elements in Fig. 19 and 21 are so shrunk as to be illegible.

If the UI elements are shrunk, the 100% crops shown in the screen capture would also have been shrunk, so what we are viewing on the website would be effectively less than 100%.  Much less than 100%, for fig. 19 and 21.

Looking at Figure 3, Photoshop's ruler marks peek out from the left edge, and I'm not sure, but these also seem to show the effects of resizing, as the ruler marks are not pixel-sharp. (I just compared them to the rulers on my Photoshop)

So...?  ???

I know Mike and the contributors here discourage people from judging image quality onscreen, but if you provided 100% crops in the review, these were provided for a reason (it is at least possible to judge sharpness onscreen, if not colour and contrast), so they should really be 100%?

(this has been hanging around in a separate thread for a whole day.  Does nobody care about this "minor technical detail"?  And am I the only one to find it odd that the "100% crops" of the 21mp Canon are larger (not just in overall size, but the size of objects shown) than the 40mp MF camera crops shown in Fig. 2-3? To be "fair", they did not mention "100%" until describing the Leica crop in Fig.7.)

(the 100% center crop of the 18MP M9 is exactly the same size as the Fig 2-3 center crops from the 40MP cameras.  Fig 4-5 are a bit larger, about equal in size to the 21mp Canon corner crop.)
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Ray

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Re: Mini Medium Format Shootout
« Reply #68 on: November 19, 2010, 12:17:56 am »

Hey! Joseph. Don't spoil the fun  ;D . These guys are still exited by possession of their new, expensive cameras.

Don't expect them to get too analytical and serious. Once you've splashed out a lot of dough on a really expensive system, there's a strange reluctance to be completely objective during comparisons with a much less expensive system.
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Joseph Yeung

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Re: Mini Medium Format Shootout
« Reply #69 on: November 19, 2010, 01:16:22 am »

I just don't understand they are doing this.  Do they really have anything to hide?

Here's a 100% crop from the Hasselblad H4D-60.  I downloaded the RAW file and did the conversion myself using default settings in Phocus, so I know that this is a real 100% crop :P (EDIT: Phocus defaults to no sharpening.  Please see my next post for a sharpened version)



Here's a link to a 47mp crop of the 60mp image saved as a size 10 jpeg:
http://jodoforce.smugmug.com/...er/Demo/Job0008prv-crop/986356227_VyDee-O.jpg
(smugmug limits uploaded images to a maximum of 48mp)

Here's where I downloaded the raw file:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=44979.0

Finding a RAW file or 100% crop from an MF camera is harder than pulling teeth, but from that one sample I could find it does seem to live up to the hype.  If some random guy taking test shots with his new MF camera can achieve this level of sharpness, surely Mark and Nick can do no worse?

And yet this "shootout" makes me wonder if any of the (very few) purported "100% crops" from MF cameras I saw on this site were actually 100% crops.  ???
« Last Edit: November 19, 2010, 09:57:23 am by Joseph Yeung »
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graeme

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Re: Mini Medium Format Shootout
« Reply #70 on: November 19, 2010, 05:18:44 am »

 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Ah, the old "Electrical Units of Measurement" quotation.

Don't we just love it!
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Dick Roadnight

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Re: Mini Medium Format Shootout
« Reply #71 on: November 19, 2010, 05:28:40 am »

Here's a 100% crop from the Hasselblad H4D-60.  I downloaded the RAW file and did the conversion myself using default settings in Phocus, so I know that this is a real 100% crop :P
I do not know why your 100% crop looks so soft... does this look any better?
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Mini Medium Format Shootout
« Reply #72 on: November 19, 2010, 08:32:57 am »

Hans,

Not sure how much sharpening Mark did on the published image, but I pushed it quite hard (in LR3) and didn't find it came to the level of the Leica at all. There's just not nearly as much detail to sharpen.  As i said in the article, one shouldn't make too much of this facet of the test, but the files from the 1DsIII were sub-par, for whatever reason. This was not a technique issue at any stage.

Almost wish we'd have left that part out, because it is a post-script to the principal test, but has taken centre-stage because it's controversial, whereas the main review isn't.

- N.

I agree on either leaving it out or have done it "properly" meaning a representative of what the 1Ds mkIII actually delivers.

But could you give us the exact capture sharpening parameters in LR 3 that was used in the article? That would be interesting to know.

Joseph Yeung

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Re: Mini Medium Format Shootout
« Reply #73 on: November 19, 2010, 09:31:42 am »

I do not know why your 100% crop looks so soft... does this look any better?

Like I said, I simply downloaded the raw file, I can't vouch for the technique or the equipment of the photographer.  But I think you'll find that it is plenty sharp... with sharpening applied:


I think this shows that the underlying pixel quality is there, but also demonstrates the importance of knowing the sharpening parameters used. (in my case it was the defaults, 100% 1px in Phocus for the original crop.  EDIT: NO, checked Phocus again, moved the sharpening slider around with no effect--I had left it unticked, which was the default.  There was no sharpening on the original crop.) Hard to quantify the sharpening in the current crop--it is based on a 300% 1px USM, but heavily masked using my own Photoshop action to prevent oversharpening halos and blowouts.)

Note to KLaban: I do not vouch for the artistic or technical qualities of samples I simply downloaded.  And I think nobody is interested in seeing a 100% crop of a hung-over eyeball--or a brick wall--except for the fact that they are 100% crops and may give one insight into the pixel sharpness of a particular camera.  If they aren't 100% crops, as I suspect for the review article images, then they are just some very uninteresting images of small parts of a brick wall that has no artistic merit nor impart any useful information about the pixel sharpness of the cameras used to shoot them.

I know you're not interested in another eyeball but the last thing I want is to be labelled an MF slammer here for posting an unsharp MF image sample without sharpening!
« Last Edit: November 19, 2010, 09:47:26 am by Joseph Yeung »
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Joseph Yeung

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Re: Mini Medium Format Shootout
« Reply #74 on: November 19, 2010, 10:52:15 am »

Joseph, the problem with your upload - apart from it being yet another hung-over eyeball - is it appeared soft when it would seem you were aiming to show just the opposite. Also there was no reference to the original which rendered the uploads meaningless. Was this a really tight face shot, a head and shoulders shot, a full length shot...


Ahem...

Here's a link to a 47mp crop of the 60mp image saved as a size 10 jpeg:
http://jodoforce.smugmug.com/...er/Demo/Job0008prv-crop/986356227_VyDee-O.jpg
(smugmug limits uploaded images to a maximum of 48mp)

Here's where I downloaded the raw file:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=44979.0

And still nobody seems to give a hoot about the resized images posing as 100% crops in the "shootout".
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Rob C

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Re: Mini Medium Format Shootout
« Reply #75 on: November 19, 2010, 10:59:58 am »

Honestly? They both look like shite.

Is there anyone here who is actually capable of using a pee65 or aitch60?
Is there anyone here who is remotely interested in posting a half decent 100% crop of a hung-over eyeball?
Is there anyone here who is remotely interested in seeing a half decent 100% crop of a hung-over eyeball?



Keith, if you look closely at the first eyeball, you'll see that it was shot with one of those revolutionary 2 o'clock flash units, not ideal for beauty.

Rob C

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Mini Medium Format Shootout
« Reply #76 on: November 19, 2010, 11:44:23 am »

And still nobody seems to give a hoot about the resized images posing as 100% crops in the "shootout".

Not so, just waiting for a response from the author(s), they are the only ones who know what really happened. The crops were undoubtedly screen captures, thus 100% crops, but it seems like the images shown in the essay were resampled further. That would make them less useful as comparison material, to put it mildly.

The addition of the (M9, and the) 1Ds3 with an average zoom lens, is unfortunate because it distracts, and gives a wrong impression. Here is an IMHO more representative 1Ds3 example (full size), but also not the main topic of the comparison.

As always, a lot depends on (proper) capture sharpening, which makes such comparisons difficult when there is no possibility for quantitative evaluation. I can make a simple test target available that doesn't care about the seasons or wind, should there be an interest. It also gives an impression of the Raw converter's ability to avoid false color moiré, especially important for those shooting fabric.

Cheers,
Bart
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Ken Bennett

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Re: Mini Medium Format Shootout
« Reply #77 on: November 19, 2010, 01:02:53 pm »



The addition of the (M9, and the) 1Ds3 with an average zoom lens, is unfortunate because it distracts, and gives a wrong impression. Here is an IMHO more representative 1Ds3 example (full size), but also not the main topic of the comparison.

Bart,

Was that shot with the 90T/S ? Nice frame, and it holds up to pixel peeping very nicely. Given my very short test of a 1Ds Mark III last year, it's what I would have expected.
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Dick Roadnight

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Re: Mini Medium Format Shootout
« Reply #78 on: November 19, 2010, 01:29:51 pm »

I think this shows that the underlying pixel quality is there, but also demonstrates the importance of knowing the sharpening parameters used. (in my case it was the defaults, 100% 1px in Phocus for the original crop.  EDIT: NO, checked Phocus again, moved the sharpening slider around with no effect--I had left it unticked, which was the default.  There was no sharpening on the original crop.) Hard to quantify the sharpening in the current crop--it is based on a 300% 1px USM, but heavily masked using my own Photoshop action to prevent oversharpening halos and blowouts.)
Thanks for the info... mine was ticked Phocus sharpening, I think at the default settings for portraiture. (I took it at a Hasselblad event with a 120 macro and an H4D-40). further sharpening in Phocus improves the hair and eyelashes but makes the nose look awful (I was short of DOF) - a case for masked sharpening like you used.

It prompts the question "Do you assess the camera or the expertly finished end product?"
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Mini Medium Format Shootout
« Reply #79 on: November 19, 2010, 02:37:04 pm »

Bart,

Was that shot with the 90T/S ? Nice frame, and it holds up to pixel peeping very nicely. Given my very short test of a 1Ds Mark III last year, it's what I would have expected.

Yes, that's with the TS-E 90 mm @ f/7.1 . I used Capture One as Raw converter (extracted the most detail from the 1Ds3 Raws) without sharpening, and I used FocusMagic for the capture sharpening.

Cheers,
Bart
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