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Author Topic: Printer Profiles, Proofing, and Profile Accuracy  (Read 3275 times)

dalex

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Printer Profiles, Proofing, and Profile Accuracy
« on: November 12, 2010, 02:21:29 pm »

Here's the background:

I've recently upgraded from an HPZ3100 to a Canon 8300, and I'm trying to print images that I worked up with the HP to look more or less the same on the new Canon without having to do too much (or any) further editing. I created profiles with the HP with its built-in spectrophotometer, and I bought a set of custom profiles from a profile-making service for the new Canon. Because the Canon generally has a larger gamut than the HP, printing the images to the Canon just using the new Canon profiles does not give identical results as the same files printed to the HP (I assume here that if your destination space is different, you don't get the same results with the rendering when you have a lot out of gamut colors).

Next I tried converting the image profile in PS to the old HP printer profile, then printed to the Canon with the Canon custom profile (I use absolute colorimetric when printing to the Canon under the assumption that since I've already converted to the HP printer color space I want to keep as many colors as possible unchanged when printing to the Canon. Since the Canon generally has a larger color space I shouldn't expect many, if any, colors to be changed during the rendering with abs. color.).

Here's the problem:

I can't match the colors on the Canon that I was getting with the HP. So, I started looking at some of the data in the various profiles involved, and I noticed a significant difference in the associated white point values. A lot of my printing involves very light colors, and these need to be accurately reproduced. My current theory is that if one or more of the profiles has relatively inaccurate white point, it's going to result in color casts, at least in the lighter tones, when I print to the Canon.

The white point values from the profiles for the paper with the worst color cast problem are (in Lab values):

HP profile: L: 96, a: -1, b: 1
Custom Canon profile: L: 97, a: 1, b: -7

Now, I'm assuming that even though these profiles were created for different printers, and using different profiling hardware, the paper being profiled is the same so the values for the white point should be pretty similar, but these are not the same (especially the b channel). When I print to the Canon using the proofing method of first converting to the HP profile in PS, I get a print with a yellow color cast, which seems consistent with these white point values, since to compensate for a change from b=-7 to b=1 you have to add yellow.

Here are my questions:

1) Is it an issue that the white points in these profiles are not more or less the same? Does it mean one of them is bad?
2) Could the difference in white points in these profiles explain the issue of a yellow color cast?
3) I tend to believe the custom Canon profile is the more accurate profile, since this particular paper is bright white, and it makes some sense that the b value of the white point should be negative (though I don't know if it should be that negative), so if I have a bad HP profile, my idea for a solution would be to edit the HP profile so that its white point values match that of the custom Canon profile. Is my reasoning here sound? I haven't tried this yet because I haven't found a profile editor that's not several hundred dollars, which leads me to:
4) Are there any profile editors that do not cost hundreds of dollars?



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Chris_Brown

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Re: Printer Profiles, Proofing, and Profile Accuracy
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2010, 05:40:31 pm »

I wish I could answer your questions with verifiable quantitative analysis, but that's not going to happen.   ;)

What you're attempting to do is print out a "proof" on the Canon that matches the output of the HP. This is similar to printing a standard CMYK proof on an inkjet printer that matches the output of a standard CMYK printing press. To do this requires more adjustments to the image than simply converting the file to another ICC profile. I don't have my "cheat sheet" in front of me, but the steps includes layers of curves and hue & saturation in various blends using Photoshop.

The question I have is: Don't you want to make the best possible print with your new printer? IOW, why constrain your output to an older device?
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JeffKohn

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Re: Printer Profiles, Proofing, and Profile Accuracy
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2010, 05:48:12 pm »

Quote
1) Is it an issue that the white points in these profiles are not more or less the same? Does it mean one of them is bad?
One possibility is that one of the profiles was created using a UVCut spectro, and the other was not. That would explain the large difference in the b* channel for paper white. Even if the non-UVCut profile was created with Profilemaker's "compensate for optical brighteners" option, the result could still be different from using a UVCut spectro.
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dalex

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Re: Printer Profiles, Proofing, and Profile Accuracy
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2010, 07:11:42 pm »

The question I have is: Don't you want to make the best possible print with your new printer? IOW, why constrain your output to an older device?

It's a valid question. I have hundreds of images that I've already optimized for certain papers on the HP, and I was looking for a way to do the least amount of work to print them on the same papers on the new Canon and get pretty similar results. And I agree that even with the proofing method of printing some adjustments will still be necessary--I've noticed that the proofing method does not give identical results on the Canon, but it gets me closer to the desired result than printing straight to the new Canon profiles without the proofing method.

One possibility is that one of the profiles was created using a UVCut spectro, and the other was not. That would explain the large difference in the b* channel for paper white. Even if the non-UVCut profile was created with Profilemaker's "compensate for optical brighteners" option, the result could still be different from using a UVCut spectro.

This is interesting, I didn't know that some spectros have a "compensate for optical brighteners" option. The built-in HP spectro gave me good results on a whole range of papers, and I didn't have to think about it at all. I'd always just followed the standard directions for making a profile. (I'm not very familiar with the details of how printer profiles are made.) I'll check with the company that made my custom profiles for the Canon to see what equipment they use and whether it has that option.

I've also been experimenting with all the profiles a bit more, both the HP and Canon. Using soft-proofing in Photoshop I have a pretty good idea of what's going on, even if I don't completely know how to fix it yet. I'd never fully appreciated the  "Simulate Paper White" option while soft proofing before (though I've always used it), until now. When I soft proof a file with Black Point Compensation checked, but Simulate Paper White *unchecked*, the difference between the HP profile and the Canon profile is negligible. Both Show the colors as I expect to see them. Then when I check the Simulate Paper White, the colors with the HP profile change minimally, not enough for me to worry. The colors in the Canon profile completely change. I'm not just talking about white areas in an image, I see a change in all colors and tones. There is a noticeable bluish/magenta color cast added, which I'm assuming is mostly due to the fact this profile has a white point with a b value of -7.  Even an image with a set of grey step patches will become too cool with the Canon profile. I always thought that a profile was supposed to prevent that sort of thing. That you still get more or less neutral greys regardless of whether you print on paper pumped with OBAs or an OBA-free paper.


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hacimd

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Re: Printer Profiles, Proofing, and Profile Accuracy
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2010, 12:54:42 pm »

Besides using a monitor that can truly be calibrated, using custom profiles for different media types, soft proofing and viewing your prints within a color viewing station...Is there some kind of viewing filter kit(similar to what you would use when learning to make Chromogenic prints) or other type of resource/hardware/software to help students learn how to color correct their prints. Any information would be greatly appreciated.
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Chris_Brown

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Re: Printer Profiles, Proofing, and Profile Accuracy
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2010, 10:15:23 am »

Quote
Is there some kind of viewing filter kit(similar to what you would use when learning to make Chromogenic prints) or other type of resource/hardware/software to help students learn how to color correct their prints.

You can emulate the chromogenic viewing filters using Photoshop's "Variations" tool. It's a good tool for beginners, and you can simply divide an image up into quadrants and give each quadrant a variation if paper and/or money is short.

Assuming that everything is calibrated and profiled, the best thing to do is make prints and play with the tools.
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hacimd

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Re: Printer Profiles, Proofing, and Profile Accuracy
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2010, 03:04:39 pm »

Sounds good, I'll look into that. Thanks
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