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Author Topic: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video  (Read 21777 times)

BJNY

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fredjeang

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Re: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2010, 01:11:29 pm »

Actually, I'd like if some MF supra gurus could comment on the rolling shutter in the case of MFD.
I have always wanted the MF brands to take the video path and I'm aware about thye chalenge.
But hey, like Kennedy said, it's worth not because it's easy but because it is hard.

I beleive this is a hoax, but...who knows.
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Graham Mitchell

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Re: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2010, 01:20:51 pm »

Why would anyone want to shoot video with a MF camera? ???
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Guy Mancuso

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Re: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2010, 01:21:02 pm »

Well with digital now we really don't have a need for a physical shutter anymore, so yes this could be the future for sure. Not sure about this rumor at all but I would imagine among the MF OEM's this has crossed there minds at least. Of course for Phase this would mean a new body which getting away from the film style bodies is not a bad thought and pretty welcome in my book. I like the DF but hell something new and really innovative would be very very welcome indeed. As long as we can still use our existing backs and lenses. I would welcome the change as long as it actually makes shooters sense not just engineering wizardry.

 I just read Grahams comments , I guess if it could eliminate a red system in some way this would be useful to a lot of shooters is to actually get both high res imagery in still and video. Not exactly sure of Red's capabilities here myself if it can actually do high res stuff on the still side
« Last Edit: November 09, 2010, 01:24:58 pm by Guy Mancuso »
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JSK

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Re: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2010, 01:28:37 pm »

PhasOne vs. Red/Hasselblad/Others..  It's about time the turtle moved in for the volley shot..  :)

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fredjeang

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Re: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2010, 01:30:21 pm »

Why would anyone want to shoot video with a MF camera? ???
I heard the same questions not a long time ago Graham, it was like: why would anyone want to shoot video with a DSLR?

And look at the reality now.

The thing is that they buy video footages editorials, Testino just released the campaign with Penelope Cruz and fimed. If testino film...this tells a lot.
Video will be included in the package for the same price than "stills only". I know it sounds like a supermarket offers but that's what photography business is at the moment.

About the Phase, I don't think they would go for a dedicated video back. Although...

By the way Graham, very beautifull works, specially the "mise en scène". When I watch your stills, I think that you would do very good videos also.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2010, 01:41:53 pm by fredjeang »
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pixjohn

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Re: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2010, 02:06:13 pm »

"Phase One have a digital back for medium format / Hasselblad cameras which records RAW video."

What seems fake is Phase partnering with Hasselblad? If this was true, why would phase not use their own camera body.

I vote for fake!

I think one day we will see video and MFDB, but this just seems like a stretch.
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Graham Mitchell

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Re: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2010, 02:10:53 pm »

I heard the same questions not a long time ago Graham, it was like: why would anyone want to shoot video with a DSLR?

I see your point, but I think people put up with the DSLR even though it is not very suitable as a video camera, mainly due to the low price. The medium format backs don't have that advantage.

Testino just released the campaign with Penelope Cruz and fimed.

I noticed that, but is it just a gimmick or is it here to stay? Time will tell. People keep forgetting that photography has several advantages over film so I think photography will always have a place.

By the way Graham, very beautifull works, specially the "mise en scène". When I watch your stills, I think that you would do very good videos also.

Thank you! Maybe one day :)
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fredjeang

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Re: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2010, 03:02:17 pm »

I see your point, but I think people put up with the DSLR even though it is not very suitable as a video camera, mainly due to the low price. The medium format backs don't have that advantage.

I noticed that, but is it just a gimmick or is it here to stay? Time will tell. People keep forgetting that photography has several advantages over film so I think photography will always have a place.

Thank you! Maybe one day :)
I think this is an important question. IMO, the movie lenguage is going to grow for the photographer.
If I remember, you're based in London, I don't know how things are crossing the chanel but here there are pressures to the photographers, included in photo-reportage and see the 1DMK4 video features wich is a camera for journalism, to start to work in video. I imagine that the Testino campaign has costed much less that what would have cost a similar tv campaign made with traditional heavy artillery, included considering his cache that might be considerable. So they got the stills and a movie from the same house and he can put the stuff in his website. Pretty impressive indeed, marketing talking.

In art gallery also same tendency, video is really coming into the scene, (with a lot of bullshit pseudo-conceptual I admit) but it grows as an art form and I saw that in the latest years, it took an exponential take-off in the most important galleries.

Internet has already a strong demand, and with html 5 it's going to grow like mushrooms. I'm tempted to say, don't miss the train. Things are changing and fast.

So for one side I see that there is a growing demand for video and this is an area that will give incomes to the photographers and probably the ones who resist the most will have to do it anyway if they make their living with photography. But I might be wrong on this vision.

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TMARK

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Re: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2010, 04:00:20 pm »

I think the use of motion is problematic for clients.  Clients want video but don't know where or how to use it.  There are two issues:  1. the viewing source/outlest; and 2. Content. 

I've looked at the metrics and what we've seen is that click-throughs on videos do not translate into sales.  Front page of the NYT, big ad, motion, whole nine yards.  No one watches the whole thing.  No one stays at the site and shops online or visits a store, less so than a compelling still in the same location.  The reason is, partially, the viewing source and the time investment.  people are more likely to watch a clip and follow through if its on a TV, or a large display, when they are at home.  Few stores in the US are equipped to have video displays large enough and numerous enough. Asia is a different story, but in the states, well,  Unless you are shooting commercials motion is essentially a vanity project for commercial clients.  The iPad and digital editions may change this because its less browing and more directed viewing.  But we aren't there yet.

As to content, video is viewed but passed over before they end, partially because the content is bland.  The holy grail is a viral video but clients are afraid of viral content.  Only rarely do clients accept ideas that are brilliant, and even rarer still that those ideas are executed well enough for the briliance to shine.

The view from the agencies is that motion is not a gimmick, but its importance is not there yet.  This is a growing realization.  We will see a flood of video with html 5, which clients don't want to pay for, extorted out of everyone with a 5D2 or 7D.  The content will be as bland as the stills they produce, creating glut, similar to the use of stock by horridly designed web sites ranging from Yale University to Chico's. 

All this to say I don't think Phase should go after Video unless they believe that they can OWN it, beating Red and Canon and Sony and Arri.  There will be too few people willing to buy it over the more established options.

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eronald

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Re: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2010, 04:12:00 pm »

Who cares about real video? WE WANT LIVEVIEW WITH A DECENT SCREEN.

Edmund
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fredjeang

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Re: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2010, 04:39:23 pm »

I think the use of motion is problematic for clients.  Clients want video but don't know where or how to use it.  There are two issues:  1. the viewing source/outlest; and 2. Content.  

I've looked at the metrics and what we've seen is that click-throughs on videos do not translate into sales.  Front page of the NYT, big ad, motion, whole nine yards.  No one watches the whole thing.  No one stays at the site and shops online or visits a store, less so than a compelling still in the same location.  The reason is, partially, the viewing source and the time investment.  people are more likely to watch a clip and follow through if its on a TV, or a large display, when they are at home.  Few stores in the US are equipped to have video displays large enough and numerous enough. Asia is a different story, but in the states, well,  Unless you are shooting commercials motion is essentially a vanity project for commercial clients.  The iPad and digital editions may change this because its less browing and more directed viewing.  But we aren't there yet.

As to content, video is viewed but passed over before they end, partially because the content is bland.  The holy grail is a viral video but clients are afraid of viral content.  Only rarely do clients accept ideas that are brilliant, and even rarer still that those ideas are executed well enough for the briliance to shine.

The view from the agencies is that motion is not a gimmick, but its importance is not there yet.  This is a growing realization.  We will see a flood of video with html 5, which clients don't want to pay for, extorted out of everyone with a 5D2 or 7D.  The content will be as bland as the stills they produce, creating glut, similar to the use of stock by horridly designed web sites ranging from Yale University to Chico's.  

All this to say I don't think Phase should go after Video unless they believe that they can OWN it, beating Red and Canon and Sony and Arri.  There will be too few people willing to buy it over the more established options.


I agree with your reflections on that matter. It is true that the demand is growing, but nobody is really sure about what to do with it.
Viral is a big cake for advertisers and my bet is that html 5 will provide the hability to interact. I think that the interaction will be the clew and I won't be surprise to see the marquet parts eating alive the traditional tv ads.
For example, you shoot a video of a car and you ask the viewer for active participation, so you can choose to drive the car in the city, then stop the movie and choose the colors, back to drive in the moutains etc...
The visual experience will be totally boosted. In my example, stills are used for showing colors.
But that will be heavy productions.
As you pointed, what will profileferate will be those unpaid extra videos (and they are proliferating right now here!...) with whatever.
When I say they are proliferating, I'm refering to some serious ediotorial business that is starting to use video as a "obliged gift". Sign of the times.
So I think will see 2 tendencies: the unpaid mess, and some truly big stuff very elaborate.

edit: and agree with Feppe, we start to see screens more and more. Advertising with big screens in shops so the summer collection shooted with the sound, the models and the wind and all that is much more impacting. Then, NO LIMITS in the claims, you can ad big texts, etc...
And not only fashion, arquitecture projects, the list is unlimited.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2010, 04:54:11 pm by fredjeang »
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feppe

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Re: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2010, 04:47:11 pm »

Few stores in the US are equipped to have video displays large enough and numerous enough. Asia is a different story, but in the states, well,  Unless you are shooting commercials motion is essentially a vanity project for commercial clients.  The iPad and digital editions may change this because its less browing and more directed viewing.  But we aren't there yet.

Video is getting more and more ubiquitous in western/northern Europe. We have video screens especially where you have a captive audience, such as fast food joints (people waiting in line) in several countries, and trams in Amsterdam. I've even seen some in public bathrooms.

We have huge facades entirely covered in an ad for [product] in several parts of the old city center - it's a friggin World Heritage Site. When e-ink or similar tech becomes video capable we'll have the same, but with video.

There'll be a need for ad block for eyes soon.

TMARK

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Re: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2010, 06:32:35 pm »

Feppe,

The recession slowed the adaptation of cheap screens in the US.  Only three retail clients followe dthrough with their grand plans for multiple screens in their stores, and one client had technical issues at their hawaii store that led them to kill screens and go back to paper.  Eventually screens will be everywhere, like in Seoul, especially when the rollable LCD's are mass produced. 

The best use of motion I've seen is the Gap web site that allows you to dress/undress a model, see the clothes on a moving person.  That is a great use.  Architecture, showing how people interact with the space, is also a great use.  I like some of what Nick Knight does with show studio, and Diesel has some good motion in their stores.  But over all, there is a lack of coherent thought on where things are going, and things move too fast for in the culture for much reflection and thought before we plunge into the gap like the Light Brigade. 
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JeffKohn

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Re: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2010, 01:26:41 am »

Who cares about real video? WE WANT LIVEVIEW WITH A DECENT SCREEN.

Edmund
Amen and +1!!!
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Ray

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Re: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2010, 02:51:51 am »

Why would anyone want to shoot video with a MF camera? ???

Because of the extremely shallow DoF. With MFDB video you can get the third eyelash to the left perfectly in focus, but the fourth eyelash to the right, slightly out of focus.

That's creativity.  ;D
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issa

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Re: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2010, 06:48:23 am »

I am cutrrently in the market looking into buying digital back, and have contacted many sources and it my assumptions and many others who know better, that video is not coming into the next installmnets of phase one. We might see better and bigger screens, enhanced DR, and may be longer exposures.
Live View is a possibility, but not they continue using CCD, heat is a big issue with live view.
I think there will be new wave of backs, but what and when remain seceret and subject to NDA.
Any way that my view
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Re: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2010, 07:54:57 am »

Does anyone really need the extra DOF vs. a 1.4 DSLR lens?   ::)

Nobody is talking about storage. How would one store this? You'd need a 500GB SSD imagebank at the very least for speed/size. I would think....
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Mr. Rib

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Re: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2010, 09:44:58 am »

I just can't see it happening.. I don't see a video feat with the next gen digital backs. Live view? They'd need to switch to CMOS and build the back from scratch. Taking onto account current state / wealth of medium back market players, I don't see Phase One taking such a huge leap forward. First thing they'd need to change is their current policy ("more mpix, more mpix, more mpix I tell ya!") thus the core of how things are in the company. Too good to be true.
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fredjeang

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Re: RUMOR: CMOS, LiveView, RAW video
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2010, 10:09:42 am »

I think we all beleive that this rumor is an hoax, at least for the next coming generation. But who knows in a longer future.
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